The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

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101G

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Does that mean that you accept the nonsense about the Trinity being pagan? How about we turn that around and say that the pagans got that idea from Christianity?

The fact that this doctrine and the doctrine of the deity of Christ are constantly attacked by false religions and cults are evidence that it is Bible truth. Satan always attacks the truth.
here is another exposure of the trinty by scripture. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". if God is with us then your trinity lie and say it's the son, or the person of the son. well didn't your doctrine also states, that the person have the same one NATURE, Spirit correct. ok here's the exposure. if the same Spirit that is the Son manifested in the Flesh of the virgin Mary, this Spirit said, he G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') while in that flesh so if it's one Spirit, then please explain how God in Spirit is divided or seperated, or G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself in flesh. (since it's ONE Spirit, then all or none of the Spirit was G2758 κενόω kenoo. for if you say it's two seperate and distinct Spirit that's polytheism, if you say that it was just the second person, then he is not God..... :eek: because the second person have the same, the same, NATURTE as the so-called first and third person. and that contridict all you have said, that Jesus is God. so which is it Enoch111?

I'll be looking for that answer. and I'm calling out all and EVERY trinitarian on this one. especially those underground trinity believers.

so @DPMartin, @Dcopymope, and @DNB and any other trinity believer.
 
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Heart2Soul

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So I have another question.....
What changes in our spiritual beliefs that are based on the Foundation of Christ if we believe in the Trinity Doctrine or the Oneness Doctrine?
I can't see where it alters how we are saved, how we pray, how we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how we live as Christ lived.
 

101G

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For those who might not had completely understood Post #201, let make it plain.
the trinity “PERSON” are in jail, and the trinity is in need of a bail bondsman to bail them out. because Post #201 has arrested the person(s) of the so-called trinity.

NOW, UNDERSTAND, I’m after the persons in the trinity doctrine. if the second person came in flesh as “GOD” then the nature has to be the same. for the trinity doctrine states by men three person but one nature, Spirit. Good, now scripture, Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man”. Now if the second person is made LOWER that the angles, then his NATURE was made G2758 κενόω kenoo , (LOWER), and that’s the PROBLEM. for the second person has the same …. co-equal NATURE. so, either all the NATURE was G2758 κενόω kenoo , because its ONE NATURE or some, or a Part, or a piece or NONE was G2758 κενόω kenoo, but the scriptures are clear, the Nature was G2758 κενόω kenoo, then you have either two Gods, or Jesus was not God in the flesh. plan and simple, and that’s the choices.

so @BreadOfLife you’re included also to answer this post as well as post #201

PICJAG.
 

101G

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So I have another question.....
What changes in our spiritual beliefs that are based on the Foundation of Christ if we believe in the Trinity Doctrine or the Oneness Doctrine?
I can't see where it alters how we are saved, how we pray, how we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how we live as Christ lived.
thanks for the question, I'm not Oneness as the UPC and some other teaches. I'm "Diversified" Oneness". which means the Lord Jesus is the "equally" ... "SHARED" ... and "DISTINCT" enity of God in flesh. just as G243 allos states, a numerical difference, two of the "SAME" one person.

and yes by the devil deception he cleverly deceive people in worshiping a false god of three person when there is only one. it will be ashame to come to the end and he say I don't know you, because you didn't know him.

all doctrine must be based on TRUTH in his word, the bible.

PICJAG.
 

Dcopymope

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So I have another question.....
What changes in our spiritual beliefs that are based on the Foundation of Christ if we believe in the Trinity Doctrine or the Oneness Doctrine?
I can't see where it alters how we are saved, how we pray, how we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how we live as Christ lived.

Convoluted doctrines like "diversified oneness" in particular could affect the atonement since it casts doubt on whether or not Jesus actually died since it is claimed that he is the same person referred to as "Father".
 

101G

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Convoluted doctrines like "diversified oneness" in particular could affect the atonement since it casts doubt on whether or not Jesus actually died since it is claimed that he is the same person referred to as "Father".
so we can take this as you have no answer to Post #201? ... :eek:

so if diversified oneness is Convoluted, just simply answer Post #201.

PICJAG
 

Grailhunter

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So I have another question.....
What changes in our spiritual beliefs that are based on the Foundation of Christ if we believe in the Trinity Doctrine or the Oneness Doctrine?
I can't see where it alters how we are saved, how we pray, how we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how we live as Christ lived.
Three God united....or....Three Gods in the same person. It changes a lot of things. At some point God becomes a name instead of a position...or a deity, and that changes a lot of things.
 

101G

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the origins of the trinity is being see right before our eyes, it is coming from the bottomless pit that is in our minds. this is the devil workshop. hence the re-newing of our minds by the Holy Ghost. corrupt minds produce corrupt doctrine.
the Lord Jesus said, by his apostle, 2 Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine
.2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Timothy 4:5 "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Post #201 is the digger, the reprove, the rebuke in the heart of the false foundation of the doctrine of the trinity, which has no foundation at all. I had pointed this out before, and without trying to embarrassing anyone, I let it passed, but not now. I’m demanding a answer to Post #201.

years ago many trinity believers bought into the lie of three person in one Nature, when their God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, three God fell apart. well now their three Person in one nature has fell apart. there is no where else to go.

because Matthew 1:23 has tossed apart the three person for the trinity doctrine. so there is no where else to hide.
what many trinity believers fail to realize, that Psalms 110:1 is in effect.

PICJAG.
 

Heart2Soul

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Three God united....or....Three Gods in the same person. It changes a lot of things. At some point God becomes a name instead of a position...or a deity, and that changes a lot of things.
Okay...I am still looking forward to your thread!
 

DNB

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here is another exposure of the trinty by scripture. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". if God is with us then your trinity lie and say it's the son, or the person of the son. well didn't your doctrine also states, that the person have the same one NATURE, Spirit correct. ok here's the exposure. if the same Spirit that is the Son manifested in the Flesh of the virgin Mary, this Spirit said, he G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') while in that flesh so if it's one Spirit, then please explain how God in Spirit is divided or seperated, or G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself in flesh. (since it's ONE Spirit, then all or none of the Spirit was G2758 κενόω kenoo. for if you say it's two seperate and distinct Spirit that's polytheism, if you say that it was just the second person, then he is not God..... :eek: because the second person have the same, the same, NATURTE as the so-called first and third person. and that contridict all you have said, that Jesus is God. so which is it Enoch111?

I'll be looking for that answer. and I'm calling out all and EVERY trinitarian on this one. especially those underground trinity believers.

so @DPMartin, @Dcopymope, and @DNB and any other trinity believer.
Countless men through the Bible, had theophoric names. El means almighty in Hebrew. Gabriel, Micheal, Ishmael, Daniel. All these names are translated as serving a purpose for God. This is extremely prevalent in Scripture, not only for the supreme God of Israel, but even the pagan gods. Jerubaal, Jezebaal.
God with us is in reference to the calamity that befell the Israelites before, during and after the captivity period, including the 400myrs of silence. Has God abandoned us was the common lament. Thus God answers by sending the promised Messianic & Davidic King. Yes, God is still with us.
 

DNB

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You are wrong. The only thing Trinitarians say is that it is not explicit in one single passage. Nobody reputable says it is only inferred from Scripture. It is clearly taught in Scripture.
Shame on you, you're not even close to being correct. I say shame, because I shouldn't even need to offer proof, any serious exegete knows that it's not taught, prophesied, effectuated in any manner throughout Scripture. Especially, and definitively the the way that all other major doctrines are (Gentiles into the Kingdom, abrogation of the Law, suffering Messiah).
In other words, even if I was a trintarian, i would be obligated to admit that much. Shame on you, can you not tell the difference?

Trinitarian Millard J. Erickson - Research Professor of Theology at S.W. Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist) in his book on the Trinity, "God in Three Persons"
"This doctrine in many ways presents strange paradoxes...It was the very first doctrine dealt with systematically by the church, yet is still one of the most misunderstood and disputed doctrines.
Further, it is not clearly or explicitly taught anywhere in Scripture, yet it is widely regarded as a central doctrine, indispensable to the Christian faith" (p. 11-12).

Professor Shirley C. Guthrie, Jr. - (Trinitarian scholar, in his best-selling book, "Christian Doctrine"):
"The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word "trinity" itself nor such language as 'one-in-three,' 'three-in-one,' one 'essence' (or "substance"), and three 'persons' is biblical language.
The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church taken from classical Greek philosophy" (p. 76-77).

Trinitarians Roger Olson and Christopher Hall - In their book, "The Trinity"
"It is understandable that the importance placed on this doctrine is perplexing to many lay Christians and students. Nowhere is it clearly and unequivocally stated in Scripture.
"The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the N.T. in the heat of controversy.
The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical councils: Nicaea (325 A.D.) and Constantinople (381 A.D.)" (p. 1-2).

Professor Charles C. Ryrie - Respected Trinitarian Evangelical Biblical scholar, in his well-known work "Basic Theology"
"In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65).
"But many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scripture for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this.
It is fair to say that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, there is not even one proof text, if by proof text we mean a verse or passage that 'clearly'
states that there is one God who exists in three persons" (p. 89). "The above illustrations prove the fallacy of concluding that if something is not proof texted in the Bible we cannot clearly teach the results...
If that were so, I could never teach the doctrine of the Trinity or the deity of Christ or the deity of the Holy Spirit" (p. 90).

Graham Greene - Noted Catholic scholar
"Our opponents sometime claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in Scripture...but the Protestant churches have themselves accepted such dogmas as the Trinity,
for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels."

Professor Cyril C. Richardson - "The Doctrine of The Trinity: A clarification of what it attempts to express"
"I cannot but think that the doctrine of the Trinity, far from being established, is open to serious criticism, because of both the modern understanding of the Scripture, and inherent confusions in its expression.
It is not a doctrine specifically to be found in the New Testament. It is a creation of the fourth-century Church" (p. 17). ...
"My conclusion then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct.
... Professor Richardson is writing as a dedicated Trinitarian but he admits,
"much of the defense of the Trinity as a 'revealed' doctrine, is really an evasion of the objections that can be brought against it" (p. 16)

Harper-Collins Bible Dictionary - (1996 Edition):
"...Attempts to trace the origins still earlier to the Old Testament literature cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship.
The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great Church Councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament."

Harper-Collins Bible Encyclopedia of Catholicism - (1995 Edition):
"Today, however, scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament
...It would go far beyond the intention and thought-forms of the Old Testament to suppose that a late-fourth century or thirteenth century Christian doctrine can be found there.
Likewise, the New Testament does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."

Encyclopedia International - (1982 Ed.; Vol. 18; p. 226):
"The doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the apostles preaching as this is reported in the N.T."

New International Encyclopedia - (Vol. 23; p. 47, 477):
...The doctrine is not found in its fully developed form in the Scriptures. Modern theology does not seek to find it in the O.T.
 

reformed1689

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Shame on you, you're not even close to being correct. I say shame, because I shouldn't even need to offer proof, any serious exegete knows that it's not taught, prophesied, effectuated in any manner throughout Scripture. Especially, and definitively the the way that all other major doctrines are (Gentiles into the Kingdom, abrogation of the Law, suffering Messiah).
In other words, even if I was a trintarian, i would be obligated to admit that much. Shame on you, can you not tell the difference?

Trinitarian Millard J. Erickson - Research Professor of Theology at S.W. Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist) in his book on the Trinity, "God in Three Persons"
"This doctrine in many ways presents strange paradoxes...It was the very first doctrine dealt with systematically by the church, yet is still one of the most misunderstood and disputed doctrines.
Further, it is not clearly or explicitly taught anywhere in Scripture, yet it is widely regarded as a central doctrine, indispensable to the Christian faith" (p. 11-12).

Professor Shirley C. Guthrie, Jr. - (Trinitarian scholar, in his best-selling book, "Christian Doctrine"):
"The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word "trinity" itself nor such language as 'one-in-three,' 'three-in-one,' one 'essence' (or "substance"), and three 'persons' is biblical language.
The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church taken from classical Greek philosophy" (p. 76-77).

Trinitarians Roger Olson and Christopher Hall - In their book, "The Trinity"
"It is understandable that the importance placed on this doctrine is perplexing to many lay Christians and students. Nowhere is it clearly and unequivocally stated in Scripture.
"The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the N.T. in the heat of controversy.
The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical councils: Nicaea (325 A.D.) and Constantinople (381 A.D.)" (p. 1-2).

Professor Charles C. Ryrie - Respected Trinitarian Evangelical Biblical scholar, in his well-known work "Basic Theology"
"In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65).
"But many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scripture for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this.
It is fair to say that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, there is not even one proof text, if by proof text we mean a verse or passage that 'clearly'
states that there is one God who exists in three persons" (p. 89). "The above illustrations prove the fallacy of concluding that if something is not proof texted in the Bible we cannot clearly teach the results...
If that were so, I could never teach the doctrine of the Trinity or the deity of Christ or the deity of the Holy Spirit" (p. 90).

Graham Greene - Noted Catholic scholar
"Our opponents sometime claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in Scripture...but the Protestant churches have themselves accepted such dogmas as the Trinity,
for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels."

Professor Cyril C. Richardson - "The Doctrine of The Trinity: A clarification of what it attempts to express"
"I cannot but think that the doctrine of the Trinity, far from being established, is open to serious criticism, because of both the modern understanding of the Scripture, and inherent confusions in its expression.
It is not a doctrine specifically to be found in the New Testament. It is a creation of the fourth-century Church" (p. 17). ...
"My conclusion then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct.
... Professor Richardson is writing as a dedicated Trinitarian but he admits,
"much of the defense of the Trinity as a 'revealed' doctrine, is really an evasion of the objections that can be brought against it" (p. 16)

Harper-Collins Bible Dictionary - (1996 Edition):
"...Attempts to trace the origins still earlier to the Old Testament literature cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship.
The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great Church Councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament."

Harper-Collins Bible Encyclopedia of Catholicism - (1995 Edition):
"Today, however, scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament
...It would go far beyond the intention and thought-forms of the Old Testament to suppose that a late-fourth century or thirteenth century Christian doctrine can be found there.
Likewise, the New Testament does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."

Encyclopedia International - (1982 Ed.; Vol. 18; p. 226):
"The doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the apostles preaching as this is reported in the N.T."

New International Encyclopedia - (Vol. 23; p. 47, 477):
...The doctrine is not found in its fully developed form in the Scriptures. Modern theology does not seek to find it in the O.T.
You missed my point. My point is that no, it does not say Trinity, it does not say three in one, but it is explicitly clear that each member of the Trinity is God and each member of the trinity is unique and serves different functions.
 

DNB

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You missed my point. My point is that no, it does not say Trinity, it does not say three in one, but it is explicitly clear that each member of the Trinity is God and each member of the trinity is unique and serves different functions.
I'm afraid I didn't, for I would immediately contend that Jesus Christ is not deified in the New Testament, just for starters. Even if the ludicrous 'I Am' statements were a given, or Emmanuel, or 'I and the Father are one' were conceded to you, there would be a thousand that explicitly and fundamentally establish his humanity. And since there is no such thing as a god-man, and that the amount of verses and their weight that demand his humanity, overwhelm and preclude any notion of his deity, one must responsibly, and sensibly deny the trinity.
 

101G

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Countless men through the Bible, had theophoric names. El means almighty in Hebrew. Gabriel, Micheal, Ishmael, Daniel. All these names are translated as serving a purpose for God. This is extremely prevalent in Scripture, not only for the supreme God of Israel, but even the pagan gods. Jerubaal, Jezebaal.
God with us is in reference to the calamity that befell the Israelites before, during and after the captivity period, including the 400myrs of silence. Has God abandoned us was the common lament. Thus God answers by sending the promised Messianic & Davidic King. Yes, God is still with us.
so you have no answer to the question.

PICJAG.
 

101G

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You missed my point. My point is that no, it does not say Trinity, it does not say three in one, but it is explicitly clear that each member of the Trinity is God and each member of the trinity is unique and serves different functions.
if that is so answer Post #201

PICJAG.
 

101G

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What is the correct answer to your question?
finaly someone asked, the answer to my Question is that God is the "SHARE" of himself in flesh, which is the G243 Allos in numerical difference.

understand?

PICJAG.
 

DNB

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so you have no answer to the question.

PICJAG.
Well, I did. I precluded your original premise that claimed 'God with us' means that Jesus was God.
Is this how you show your appreciation?
 
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