The Elect Of God Who Are They?

[Brother Mike]

JerryJohnson:

That isn't the case at all, God doesn't run a welfare system. Everyone has a job to do.

Ah...... setting my remote down now.............

Christina:

OK, So the Prophet, evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, and Apostle are the Elect..................

Anyone called to the "Helps" or "Supply" for these Elect are not Elect, (Not real sure on the Word Elect though. It means chosen.)

I am not caught up with God Choosing who he chooses......... Not everyone has a speaking position, but I believe everyone does have a position.

I am leaving my family soon to go to another town to check into a ministry God wants me to look at. I don't know, He says Go, I go.

He has also talked to me about the Prophet ministry, and I do operate in that sometimes, though I would not call myself a Prophet, as everyone can operate in the gifts of the Spirit. I am sure I will continue in teaching, the I know God wants me to Pastor.

So, lets say I get picked to be the speaker, and have people that follow. Those people pray for me, and help me do as God told me to do. I just don't get how they are not elect also, because without them doing as God told them, I fail............. How many times Paul said to Pray? I could be messing up what you said, but it's because I am still confused about "Elect"

Calvinism I am very clear, that Doctrine does not even make sense...........

Thank you for taking the time and trying to explain this to me....... Be blessed, keep the Word coming forth......

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[rdventen]

[sup]9[/sup] Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. [sup]10[/sup] Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.”

This is the type of Election that the bible is speaking of and has not a thing to do with salvation at all but called into service for God.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

When one is born again, then that is when God wants to talk to us about service for Him, that is the kind of Election we have here, not for salvation.

 

[Brother Mike]

HOW MANY ELECTIONS THREADS DO WE NEED???????????????????????????


Mike.

 

[Christina]

JerryJohnson:



Ah...... setting my remote down now.............

Christina:

OK, So the Prophet, evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, and Apostle are the Elect..................

Anyone called to the "Helps" or "Supply" for these Elect are not Elect, (Not real sure on the Word Elect though. It means chosen.)

I am not caught up with God Choosing who he chooses......... Not everyone has a speaking position, but I believe everyone does have a position.

I am leaving my family soon to go to another town to check into a ministry God wants me to look at. I don't know, He says Go, I go.

He has also talked to me about the Prophet ministry, and I do operate in that sometimes, though I would not call myself a Prophet, as everyone can operate in the gifts of the Spirit. I am sure I will continue in teaching, the I know God wants me to Pastor.

So, lets say I get picked to be the speaker, and have people that follow. Those people pray for me, and help me do as God told me to do. I just don't get how they are not elect also, because without them doing as God told them, I fail............. How many times Paul said to Pray? I could be messing up what you said, but it's because I am still confused about "Elect"

Calvinism I am very clear, that Doctrine does not even make sense...........

Thank you for taking the time and trying to explain this to me....... Be blessed, keep the Word coming forth......

Jesus Is Lord.

Your talking about the church body everybody is a part of that
we are not all heads or hands or legs but one can not chose which is more important part ...
If you need walk the legs are the most important
if you need to pick something up the hand is more important
if you need to say something the head is more important
the point is we all make up one body and each has its own Job one is as important as the next.

No one knows who is a predestined elect only God knows who he has chosen

but lets take a hypothical situation:

Say God needs this church body (made up of Believers) to leave a place ...so he predestined one to speak through
to tell this church body where to go to be safe from a coming disaster...

Why do you think this would be unfair ??

God chose that person because he fore knew them as trustworthy ..meaning he knew they would deliver the message he intended.

This doesnt mean he doesnt speak to your spirit.
He may call you to a miistery that doesnt mean you are or are not of the Elect
it simply means you are one of Gods children he has a personal relationship with you and has called you.

The fact is none of us knows until we are told ... Paul pursecuted Christains he had not the slightest idea he was pre chosen to preach until God made him see it ..
It only means he was predestined to do a certain thing for the benifit of all the entire church body....

Now in the end times we see the some of the Elect will be called up to testify

Mark13:11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost
This will not be us talking this will be as it was on Penecost Day Gods
voice will speak his Words through your body so all will hear in their own language.

Now God will speak through these Elect to the masses and his words will save many .... Who will he chose to speak through you, me, bob ,Joe or Jane ??...
No one knows but God ...but he has already fore chosen who they will be ...
Even if its you ..You will not know until your standing there on trial and he tells you ....

 

[gumby]

TOPICS MERGED FOR EASY ACESS

 

[Adstar]

Mike I think you have overlooked some scriptures.

God did harden Pharaoh's heart

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exod. 9:12


And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I havehardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: Exod. 10:1


But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.


But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.


And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.


And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

Yes God hardened Pharaoh's. But it astounds me that you have gone to the trouble of looking up all these verses without reading the Whole Message and also quoting the passages where Pheroah firist hardened His own heart.

Why did you not post the verses showing that Pheroah first hardened His own heart before God did???

Is it not proper for followers of Jesus to deal with the Word of God with honesty???


Exodus 8
8Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Entreat the LORD that He may take away the frogs from me and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may sacrifice to the LORD."

9And Moses said to Pharaoh, "Accept the honor of saying when I shall intercede for you, for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only."

10So he said, "Tomorrow." And he said, "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God. 11And the frogs shall depart from you, from your houses, from your servants, and from your people. They shall remain in the river only."

12Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh. And Moses cried out to the LORD concerning the frogs which He had brought against Pharaoh. 13So the LORD did according to the word of Moses. And the frogs died out of the houses, out of the courtyards, and out of the fields. 14They gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. 15But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.


Note it says that he (pharaoh) hardened his heart.



Exodus 8
28So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me."

29Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the LORD, that the swarms of flies may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD."

30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the LORD. 31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.



Once again here we see pharaoh after being given a second chance hardened his heart again against the will of God. Pharaoh was in total rebellion against the will of God.



Exodus 9
8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.



Now we see God deciding to keep pharaohs heart hard to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[fivesense]

Yes God hardened Pharaoh's. But it astounds me that you have gone to the trouble of looking up all these verses without reading the Whole Message and also quoting the passages where Pheroah firist hardened His own heart.



Now we see God deciding to keep pharaohs heart hard to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Ro 9:17-18

What is there that is not to be understood by the plain words of God? Reasoning and backpeddling may produce whatever conclusions we wish to draw. We can also manipulate the Word to our own satisfaction. But the blessed of God believe Him, and continue on in the advance of knowing their Father and His might. Faithfulness has faith for its' root.
fivesense

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes God hardened Pharaoh's. But it astounds me that you have gone to the trouble of looking up all these verses without reading the Whole Message and also quoting the passages where Pheroah firist hardened His own heart.

Why did you not post the verses showing that Pheroah first hardened His own heart before God did???

Is it not proper for followers of Jesus to deal with the Word of God with honesty???


Exodus 8
8Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Entreat the LORD that He may take away the frogs from me and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may sacrifice to the LORD."

9And Moses said to Pharaoh, "Accept the honor of saying when I shall intercede for you, for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only."

10So he said, "Tomorrow." And he said, "Let it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God. 11And the frogs shall depart from you, from your houses, from your servants, and from your people. They shall remain in the river only."

12Then Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh. And Moses cried out to the LORD concerning the frogs which He had brought against Pharaoh. 13So the LORD did according to the word of Moses. And the frogs died out of the houses, out of the courtyards, and out of the fields. 14They gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. 15But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.


Note it says that he (pharaoh) hardened his heart.



Exodus 8
28So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me."

29Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the LORD, that the swarms of flies may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD."

30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the LORD. 31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.



Once again here we see pharaoh after being given a second chance hardened his heart again against the will of God. Pharaoh was in total rebellion against the will of God.



Exodus 9
8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.



Now we see God deciding to keep pharaohs heart hard to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I see that God hardened Pharaoh's and not just kept it hard but hardened it even more. So whats the problem?

 

[Adstar]

I see that God hardened Pharaoh's and not just kept it hard but hardened it even more. So whats the problem?

And i see that it was Pharaoh's act of hardening His own heart toward the will of God (repeatedly) that was the justification for God to to keep his heart hardened to an illogical/crazy extent.

The calvanist will declare that Pharaoh never had a chance. They preach an unjust God has forced many to reject Him by His total control of their minds. This disgusts me.

God did raise up Pharaoh and from His foreknowledge knew he would harden his heart towards the will of God. There is no point posting scripture when one does not understand that God's Foreknowledge comes before His Predetermination. There are no idle worlds in scripture. What calvanists do is negate Gods Foreknowledge of each person. These scriptures:

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Ro 9:17-18

Do not change a thing. They do not show that Pharaoh had no chance to accept the will of God.

What calvanisim is, is an interpretation of scripture. But it comes from a lack of understanding. They are locked into thinking that God is locked into the universal time that His creation is bound to.

God is above His creation. And universal time is part of that. He dwells in eternity and can see all our times from His time. That’s why He knows the beginning to the end.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jiggyfly]

And i see that it was Pharaoh's act of hardening His own heart toward the will of God (repeatedly) that was the justification for God to to keep his heart hardened to an illogical/crazy extent.

The calvanist will declare that Pharaoh never had a chance. They preach an unjust God has forced many to reject Him by His total control of their minds. This disgusts me.

God did raise up Pharaoh and from His foreknowledge knew he would harden his heart towards the will of God. There is no point posting scripture when one does not understand that God's Foreknowledge comes before His Predetermination. There are no idle worlds in scripture. What calvanists do is negate Gods Foreknowledge of each person. These scriptures:

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I am not an advocate of calvinism or arminianism. I think that they are both errant. I am not sure of your stance though it seems you believe that God's will is subject to man's free will. How does the sovereignty God work with theory of man's free will?

Do not change a thing. They do not show that Pharaoh had no chance to accept the will of God.

What calvanisim is, is an interpretation of scripture. But it comes from a lack of understanding. They are locked into thinking that God is locked into the universal time that His creation is bound to.

God is above His creation. And universal time is part of that. He dwells in eternity and can see all our times from His time. That’s why He knows the beginning to the end.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You seem to have a limited understanding of olam and aion. Try a word study, it may help Adstar.

 

[Adstar]

I am not an advocate of calvinism or arminianism. I think that they are both errant. I am not sure of your stance though it seems you believe that God's will is subject to man's free will. How does the sovereignty God work with theory of man's free will?

Of course God is Control of Eternity. No one shall enter into Eternity with Him without His approval. But it is His will to give us and the angels free will. We do not undermine Gods Control over The Eternal destination of all existence by rejecting His or accepting His will. Our decision only determines our eternal destination in the Lake of Fire with satan or in the New Jerusalem with God and the Lamb.

So Gods "sovereignty" as you call it still stands and can never be overthrown.

I believe that God has predestined those who will have eternity with Him and those who will have eternity in the lake of fire, and i believe He knew whom would go where from the beginning of creation. This comes however not from Him creating one set of people for destruction who have never had hope for salvation and another set of people who have no other option then to accept His will and be saved. It comes from His Foreknowledge of all history, and when i say all history i mean He knows every moment of History and every thought of every person who will ever exist, He knows the path of every atom of matter from the beginning of time till the end. He has total situational awareness of all existence.

God is Awesome Indeed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Brother Mike]

Adstar:

I believe that God has predestined those who will have eternity with Him and those who will have eternity in the lake of fire, and i believe He knew whom would go where from the beginning of creation. This comes however not from Him creating one set of people for destruction who have never had hope for salvation and another set of people who have no other option then to accept His will and be saved. It comes from His Foreknowledge of all history, and when i say all history i mean He knows every moment of History and every thought of every person who will ever exist, He knows the path of every atom of matter from the beginning of time till the end. He has total situational awareness of all existence.

Brother I was following and rooting for you until you made this statement.

I did like how you defended Pharaoh though. Pharaoh did have a choice.............. His heart was already past recovery before God ever mentioned that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. All God did was send more of his power and ability which pharaoh was already hardened to. If you want someone that already has a stance against something, to get them even more abrasive just add more to the fire. Pharaoh was already long gone before God started all those plagues.


Now you said God predestines...........Now this is what we were coming against........... Like I said, you were doing great, but I think I understand..........

We have scriptures that God wishes to loose nobody, but ALL come to the knowledge to the truth, then we have to believe that God knows everything from every Atom. If we say he don't, we get strange looks. It sort of contradicts scripture.

What if, God knows what He spoken must and will come to pass? That the Word runs it's course regardless. When it comes to people though, he chooses not to know, or just does not know, but is pleased when people he created choose him.

I mean, we are told all of heaven rejoices that 1 sheep came back (Luke 17) and how did God treat that younger son when he came back home??. Notice God did not say.......... eh, I knew you were coming back anyway?

In fact we have lots and lots more evidence that God the father, Gave his word, and expects by faith for people to believe that Word. The ones that make it, do so. After all, we are created in his image and have his ability to make choices and have faith.

That would make a whole lot more sense, and take any blame from God away.

Now concerning his Word................His Word must come to pass. The bible points these places out............ the donkey waiting on Jesus, Judas blew it.......(It had to be someone so scripture could be fullfilled) look at Zackariah, the angel shut his mouth and He had John the baptist anyway. No doubt and unbelief could come out of his mouth, messing things up.

I see God as someone that believes in us. So much that He gave us Jesus. I see a faith God. by looking at scripture after scripture though, I don't see where God planed failure. He was always there to pick up the pieces though. I don't think he choose to know people from start to end. In fact, Jesus told a group the he knew them not, which means they were not even in God's radar. He searches the earth for hearts full of faith and perfect toward him.... Why he gotta search?

There are way to many scriptures in the way to just say God knows the outcome of everybody.

Just a thought Adstar!!!

Be blessed my brother, and thanks for handling Jiggyfly for me for awhile. Sometimes he catches me up, and I run out of scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Of course God is Control of Eternity. No one shall enter into Eternity with Him without His approval. But it is His will to give us and the angels free will. We do not undermine Gods Control over The Eternal destination of all existence by rejecting His or accepting His will. Our decision only determines our eternal destination in the Lake of Fire with satan or in the New Jerusalem with God and the Lamb.

So Gods "sovereignty" as you call it still stands and can never be overthrown.

I believe that God has predestined those who will have eternity with Him and those who will have eternity in the lake of fire, and i believe He knew whom would go where from the beginning of creation. This comes however not from Him creating one set of people for destruction who have never had hope for salvation and another set of people who have no other option then to accept His will and be saved. It comes from His Foreknowledge of all history, and when i say all history i mean He knows every moment of History and every thought of every person who will ever exist, He knows the path of every atom of matter from the beginning of time till the end. He has total situational awareness of all existence.

God is Awesome Indeed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

How does this scripture and the many others that express God's love and concern for all mankind factor into your paradigm?
2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Templar81]

Westbro Baptist think they ar the elect but they are so wrong. Hate groups like them who twist God's word have only a place in eternal hHell fire and damnation. Saying that I'm sure some of them are real Christians and not rotten all the way through like Fred and Shirley Phelps.



I got the wording a little wrong. What I mean is Fred and Shirley Phelps are rotten all the way through but I'm sure some of their members are genuine Christians.

 

[Adstar]

How does this scripture and the many others that express God's love and concern for all mankind factor into your paradigm?
2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well lets read what that scripture actually says:

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If the calvanists where right then God created one batch of people to reject His will and then be condemned to eternity in the Lake of Fire, He would be a God that indeed did will that some Perish and He would also be a God that would will that some would Not come to repentance.

But this scripture does not say that none will perish and that all will come to repentance. it only declares the intent of God. This scripture is a message to anyone who believes that God has rejected them and is blocking them from salvation. I have encountered some who state this.

God has set up a way for all men to be saved. But it takes the acceptance of each man to make that Way have a personal effect upon their own eternal destination.

What i have said in my posts does not contradict 2 Peter 3 vrs 9 .


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar:




Brother I was following and rooting for you until you made this statement.

I did like how you defended Pharaoh though. Pharaoh did have a choice.............. His heart was already past recovery before God ever mentioned that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. All God did was send more of his power and ability which pharaoh was already hardened to. If you want someone that already has a stance against something, to get them even more abrasive just add more to the fire. Pharaoh was already long gone before God started all those plagues.


Now you said God predestines...........Now this is what we were coming against........... Like I said, you were doing great, but I think I understand..........

We have scriptures that God wishes to loose nobody, but ALL come to the knowledge to the truth, then we have to believe that God knows everything from every Atom. If we say he don't, we get strange looks. It sort of contradicts scripture.

What if, God knows what He spoken must and will come to pass? That the Word runs it's course regardless. When it comes to people though, he chooses not to know, or just does not know, but is pleased when people he created choose him.

I mean, we are told all of heaven rejoices that 1 sheep came back (Luke 17) and how did God treat that younger son when he came back home??. Notice God did not say.......... eh, I knew you were coming back anyway?

In fact we have lots and lots more evidence that God the father, Gave his word, and expects by faith for people to believe that Word. The ones that make it, do so. After all, we are created in his image and have his ability to make choices and have faith.

That would make a whole lot more sense, and take any blame from God away.

Now concerning his Word................His Word must come to pass. The bible points these places out............ the donkey waiting on Jesus, Judas blew it.......(It had to be someone so scripture could be fullfilled) look at Zackariah, the angel shut his mouth and He had John the baptist anyway. No doubt and unbelief could come out of his mouth, messing things up.

I see God as someone that believes in us. So much that He gave us Jesus. I see a faith God. by looking at scripture after scripture though, I don't see where God planed failure. He was always there to pick up the pieces though. I don't think he choose to know people from start to end. In fact, Jesus told a group the he knew them not, which means they were not even in God's radar. He searches the earth for hearts full of faith and perfect toward him.... Why he gotta search?

There are way to many scriptures in the way to just say God knows the outcome of everybody.

Just a thought Adstar!!!

Be blessed my brother, and thanks for handling Jiggyfly for me for awhile. Sometimes he catches me up, and I run out of scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

Nothing i have said removes the free will ability of man, to accept or reject the Will of God.

The Scriptures that reveal Gods foreknowledge not just of history in general but in the lives of people who have not yet existed cannot be ignored. Therefore coming to the understanding of Foreknowledge is the only way to accept both scriptures that declare God's predestination of all those who have existed and also our freedom to respond to His will either accepting or rejecting it.

God knew the eternal destiny of all men from the foundation of the World as revelations reveals.

Revelation 17
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And

Revelation 13
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[d] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We cannot simply ignore the many scriptures that show that God has foreknowledge of people and their eternal destiny. It is only through the understanding of Foreknowledge that Predestination and Free will can harmonized. Nor can scripture be ignored that declares that God can harden an individuals heart to continue in rejection of His will. Note the next scripture that is closely related to Revelation 13 verse i quoted above:

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So this scripture declares that God will send strong delusion upon those who have rejected the truth (The Gospel message of salvation) so that they will believe the lie (satans end time great deception) so that they will be condemned to Eternity in the lake of fire. So as God hardened Pharaoh and brought him to destruction so will God in the end times Bring those who reject the Love of the truth to a similar end.

The problem with calvanism is that i places the hardening of their hearts at the moment of their creation. But scriptures reveal that like Pharaoh the hardening of their heart does Not come upon the point of creation but at the point of their rejection of the Will of God. Pharaoh rejected Gods will before God hardened his heart and likewise these people mentioned in the end times prophecy also first rejected the Love of the truth (Gods will) before God sends them strong delusion so that they will believe the end time deception of satan.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Oh and here is another classic scripture that clearly reveals that God has foreknowledge of us even before we are formed in the Womb. For God said to the young Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1
4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5 “ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

God had foreknowedge of Jeremiah and had predestined him to be a Prophet to the nations.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jiggyfly]

Well lets read what that scripture actually says:

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If the calvanists where right then God created one batch of people to reject His will and then be condemned to eternity in the Lake of Fire, He would be a God that indeed did will that some Perish and He would also be a God that would will that some would Not come to repentance.

But this scripture does not say that none will perish and that all will come to repentance. it only declares the intent of God. This scripture is a message to anyone who believes that God has rejected them and is blocking them from salvation. I have encountered some who state this.

God has set up a way for all men to be saved. But it takes the acceptance of each man to make that Way have a personal effect upon their own eternal destination.

What i have said in my posts does not contradict 2 Peter 3 vrs 9 .


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well guess we will have to disagree on this then because I see a conflict between this verse plus many others with what you posted. You say it is God's intent that no one perish but you indicate that God isn't able to do what He intends.

You see man having some part in his/her redemption/reconciliation but the scriptures make it very clear that it is Christ crucified that reconciles us all, period.

God has predestined all humankind's destination and there is just one destination it's God all and in all. To say this doesn't happen is to say things didn't work out as God purposed making God a failure.

 

[Brother Mike]

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Well, the way I read it, ALL means ALL.............................. So that should take care of any Elect saved or predetermined doctrine out there. Everybody on the whole planet has already been reconciled to Jesus..........................

What God had in Store for Mankind (Judgement, punishment) the Lord made peace for us though His blood. That is everybody!!!!

If we say that God has picked some to be saved, and not others then we have a big issue with lots of scriptures, and the Work of the Cross is incomplete.

Joh 5:40 And God has not chosen you, that ye might have life. ??????????? NO.........That is not how it reads.........

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.



Now I can make food for everybody!!!! I can ring the dinner bell. If you don't come to eat..........Then who's fault is it if your hungry?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Well, the way I read it, ALL means ALL.............................. So that should take care of any Elect saved or predetermined doctrine out there. Everybody on the whole planet has already been reconciled to Jesus..........................

What God had in Store for Mankind (Judgement, punishment) the Lord made peace for us though His blood. That is everybody!!!!

If we say that God has picked some to be saved, and not others then we have a big issue with lots of scriptures, and the Work of the Cross is incomplete.

Joh 5:40 And God has not chosen you, that ye might have life. ??????????? NO.........That is not how it reads.........

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.



Now I can make food for everybody!!!! I can ring the dinner bell. If you don't come to eat..........Then who's fault is it if your hungry?

Jesus Is Lord.

Good post Mike and as Paul Harvey used to say "now for the rest of the story".

There are so many different beliefs about "eternity". We know by the scriptures that every knee bows, and every tongue confesses allegiance to God in the end and that God is all and in all. So when does this happen? Each man in his own order. One key verse in Revelation that many seem to ignore or overlook is Rev. 21:25.

Its gates never close at the end of day because there is no night.


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[Christina]

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

seems God does have Elect You know what I wonder if they could possably be the same ones who are sealed