The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[marks]

It's like this question about the bride and the guests. Who are the guests? And why are they guests?

Answers to those two question will show the differences of ideas in theology, eschatology, ecclesiology, more, I'm sure.

These things don't exist in a vacuum.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

In the parable of the wedding feast, only one guest was thrown out. The rest of the guests stayed. So, there was a bride and groom and there were guests.

OH , i was mistaking it for those who were called . Yeah only one guest was booted out ,
And let us focus on WHY he was booted out .
CAUSE HE DIDNT have on the white robe , HIMS was dressed in strange apparral . YOU KNOW
like this all inclusive strange apparral that many now wear . WE SHould have stuck to
the original gospel . TOO many are now Believing muslims , buddists and atheist and who knows what else they include
can be saved by having this lovey lovey nonsense . I watch folks sister . SO my advice is
STICK TO THE ONE true gospel and let none of us believe this sensual love lie .
The only and i do mean ONLY way to be saved , CONFESS BY MOUTH JESUS IS LORD
and believe from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead . AND the proof that our faith is real and not dead
IS that we would LOVE HIS teachings , just like ALL the apostels did , just as every true lamb does .
TOO many are getting caught up and away with this false lovey lovey unity bogus satanic demonic baal lie .

 

[David H.]

In the parable of the wedding feast, only one guest was thrown out. The rest of the guests stayed. So, there was a bride and groom and there were guests.

@Episkopos is referring to the wedding in Revelation 19 of the bride. There are those who are the bride and those invited to the feast by the bride. The bride is clothed with the righteousness of the saints. Much of the church in this Laodicean age thinks they are rich spiritually, but they are in reality Spiritually naked.

 

[marks]

We are all on the path to sainthood (holiness),

Not if God chooses some for sainthood and not others.

No.

We need to understand the implications of our views.

Much love!

 

[marks]

OH , i was mistaking it for those who were called . Yeah only one guest was booted out ,
And let us focus on WHY he was booted out .
CAUSE HE DIDNT have on the white robe , HIMS was dressed in strange apparral . YOU KNOW
like this all inclusive strange apparral that many now wear . WE SHould have stuck to
the original gospel . TOO many are now Believing muslims , buddists and atheist and who knows what else they include
can be saved by having this lovey lovey nonsense . I watch folks sister . SO my advice is
STICK TO THE ONE true gospel and let none of us believe this sensual love lie .
The only and i do mean ONLY way to be saved , CONFESS BY MOUTH JESUS IS LORD
and believe from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead . AND the proof that our faith is real and not dead
IS that we would LOVE HIS teachings , just like ALL the apostels did , just as every true lamb does .
TOO many are getting caught up and away with this false lovey lovey unity bogus satanic demonic baal lie .

Yes. He had his own clothes on. What he did for himself.

I'd add that this represents a man's ideas that his own righteousness will be OK with God. He will be speechless in the end.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Not if God chooses some for sainthood and not others.

No.

We need to understand the implications of our views.

A new convert who then dies within days of his salvation is not going to add to his faith any of the qualities Peter spoke about in 2 Peter 1:5-9, yet he is still on the same path he did not get very far in the time he was given. What is worse is when complacency slips into the Christian life and they stop going down this path to sainthood outlined there and then 2 Peter 1:9 applies.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes. He had his own clothes on. What he did for himself.

I'd add that this represents a man's ideas that his own righteousness will be OK with God. He will be speechless in the end.

Much love!

So why on earth do folks believe somehow muslims and buddists and other fake sorry dead religions
can be saved by their good works lovey lovey . THIS IS A LIE MARK . IF you and I cant save ourselves
by our good works , HOW CAN THEY . ITS A LIE MARK . A LIE .

 

[charity]

For this Post, I want both sides of this debate to be open minded to the fact that men are prone to error, even good men led by God. I will keep this brief and elaborate more if need be.

A Brief History of the Problem:
With the reformation a number of doctrines of the Catholic church were re-evaluated and reformed based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. One of these was the prayers and veneration of the saints, a concept which no true saint wants in their life nor in their death but instead would rather all Glory Go to the Lamb that was slain and His blood that transforms and cleanses us. For example, scripture tells us to pray FOR the saints, not pray TO the saints. This reformation was fully justified yet in the process they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.... which is the distinction between the faithful and the saints (Ephesians 1:1). In so doing Protestantism deemed all believers as saints and from this doctrine alone comes the division of Calvinism and Arminianism.

What is the difference between the faithful and the saints?
The one big difference between the faithful and the saints is the fact that a saint does not choose to be a saint but is chosen by God to be a saint (2 Peter 1:1), whereas the faithful choose to be faithful of their own free will based on hearing and the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without this distinction, you will end up with two groups of believers, that believe that salvation is either by predestination or free will ("Whosoever believeth" John 3:16) and this is what we saw transpire once this error took root in Protestantism.

Why this solves the Problem:
If salvation is by freewill to whosoever believeth, then the Arminian is correct, but if those believers being chosen by God to be saints is correct then the Calvinist is also right, but each is wrong in applying their view on the other group, saying salvation is by predestination as the Calvinist do, or that becoming a saint is by free will as the Armenians do. Thus, the problem is failing to distinguish between the faithful and the saints in these churches.

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.'
Eph 1:1-2)

Hello @David H,

In regard to your use of the words, 'saints' and 'faithful' in Ephesians 1:1. The use of both words in that epistle and elsewhere in the epistles of Paul make clear that:-

The 'saint' is one by redeeming grace, the 'faithful' is one who, having been raised with Christ, seeks to walk worthy of the high calling he has received. so 'the saints' (1:1) are such by their calling (1:4), and that this calling is realized by the finished work of Christ on their behalf (5:27), and that, while their sainthood in the first instance derives from what God has done rather than what they are in themselves, there is such a thing subsequently, as a manner of life that 'becometh' saints (5:30), and that love for, and prayer on behalf of the saints for one another is part of the armour of God. (Ephesians 1:1; 1:15; 1:18; 2:19; 3:8; 3:18; 4:12; 5:3; 6:18)

The believers at Ephesus were not only addressed as saints, but 'faithful', and this title indicated some response on their part to quickening love. 'The saints' therefore are also the 'faithful', and are 'in Christ Jesus'. The double title suggests the twofoldness of their calling. As saints they have been redeemed, called, sanctified and assured of glory. This however does not mean that because salvation is not of works, it is not unto works. Those who are thus called and sanctified are expected to respond. They should rise and walk in newness of life, and this is largely expressed in faithfulness. More than half of the verses where this word is used in the later epistles of Paul are connected with service.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[David H.]

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.'
Eph 1:1-2)

Hello @David H,

In regard to your use of the words, 'saints' and 'faithful' in Ephesians 1:1. The use of both words in that epistle and elsewhere in the epistles of Paul make clear that:-

The 'saint' is one by redeeming grace, the 'faithful' is one who, having been raised with Christ, seeks to walk worthy of the high calling he has received. so 'the saints' (1:1) are such by their calling (1:4), and that this calling is realized by the finished work of Christ on their behalf (5:27), and that, while their sainthood in the first instance derives from what God has done rather than what they are in themselves, there is such a thing subsequently, as a manner of life that 'becometh' saints (5:30), and that love for, and prayer on behalf of the saints for one another is part of the armour of God. (Ephesians 1:1; 1:15; 1:18; 2:19; 3:8; 3:18; 4:12; 5:3; 6:18)

The believers at Ephesus were not only addressed as saints, but 'faithful', and this title indicated some response on their part to quickening love. 'The saints' therefore are also the 'faithful', and are 'in Christ Jesus'. The double title suggests the twofoldness of their calling. As saints they have been redeemed, called, sanctified and assured of glory. This however does not mean that because salvation is not of works, it is not unto works. Those who are thus called and sanctified are expected to respond. They should rise and walk in newness of life, and this is largely expressed in faithfulness. More than half verses where this word is used in the later epistles of Paul they are connected with service.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I see you are from England, are you an Anglican? It would be nice to have this perspective here as this is one of the few Protestant churches that still believes the saints are distinct from the faithful. Good comment.
God bless

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Episkopos is referring to the wedding in Revelation 19 of the bride. There are those who are the bride and those invited to the feast by the bride. The bride is clothed with the righteousness of the saints. Much of the church in this Laodicean age thinks they are rich spiritually, but they are in reality Spiritually naked.

Yes, there too.
And the guests are clothed also.

 

[Curtis]

Do you see any difference between the Bride of Christ and the many guests that are invited to the feast?

Everyone’s invited to receive Jesus and become a bride, but most will not do so.

There’s your difference.

 

[David H.]

Yes, there too.
And the guests are clothed also.

In the parable Jesus spoke, the one who is cast into outer darkness is the one who invited the unworthy to the wedding.... Think about that. Are we as a church doing this by denying the need to cloth ourselves rightly and choosing to live in complacency thinking we are rich and in need of nothing?​

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Everyone’s invited to receive Jesus and become a bride, but most will not do so.

There’s your difference.

In the parable Jesus spoke, the one who is cast into outer darkness is the one who invited the unworthy to the wedding.... Think about that. Are we as a church doing this by denying the need to cloth ourselves rightly and choosing to live in complacency thinking we are rich and in need of nothing?​

I may have to go read it again. I don’t remember that the one thrown out was thrown out for inviting the unworthy guests. I just remember he was cast out for not having on the correct clothing to be there. Like, a mixture of wool and linen rather than one or the other.

And yes, I do get that the teaching of men has done a horrible thing teaching no distinction between what is holy and what is not. All fear of God is gone by it.

 

[marks]

So why on earth do folks believe somehow muslims and buddists and other fake sorry dead religions
can be saved by their good works lovey lovey . THIS IS A LIE MARK . IF you and I cant save ourselves
by our good works , HOW CAN THEY . ITS A LIE MARK . A LIE .

Yes. There are those right here who will tell others that God will accept them based on their own righteousness, without the imputed righteousness of Christ. Well, there was a time that God would accept people's own efforts to keep His Law, and the blood of the lambs and goats and bulls would cover their sins.

But now God calls men everywhere to repent, which means to have a new mind, EVEN THOSE who at one time would be accepted under the Law. But it was always to get people to come to Christ.

To anyone who teaches that salvation can be outside of Christ, I'll reply, there is ONLY ONE NAME given under heaven by which men MUST BE saved.

Only one.

Jesus!

Much love!

 

[marks]

the one who is cast into outer darkness is the one who invited the unworthy to the wedding....

I don't remember this either. Please post the Scripture or retract the . . . oh, nevermind!

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Everyone’s invited to receive Jesus and become a bride, but most will not do so.

There’s your difference.

But in Revelation 19 there is the bride, and those invited by the bride to the wedding supper, and the bride is clothed with the righteousness of the saints. No offence but your theory fails to explain who these are.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes. There are those right here who will tell others that God will accept them based on their own righteousness, without the imputed righteousness of Christ. Well, there was a time that God would accept people's own efforts to keep His Law, and the blood of the lambs and goats and bulls would cover their sins.

But now God calls men everywhere to repent, which means to have a new mind, EVEN THOSE who at one time would be accepted under the Law. But it was always to get people to come to Christ.

To anyone who teaches that salvation can be outside of Christ, I'll reply, there is ONLY ONE NAME given under heaven by which men MUST BE saved.

Only one.

Jesus!

Much love!

So why on earth do folks believe somehow muslims and buddists and other fake sorry dead religions
can be saved by their good works lovey lovey . THIS IS A LIE MARK . IF you and I cant save ourselves
by our good works , HOW CAN THEY . ITS A LIE MARK . A LIE .
So you agree that this is a lie .
I happen to know ex muslims , ex buddists , ex atheists , and they all have this in common .
THEY ALL SAY their old religion or mindset was A LIE . THAT YOU MUST CONFESS and BELIEVE IN JESUS
and they all abandoned their old religions and mindsets . SO , THE LIE pope francis
and more and more of even the protestant realm is teaching IS A LIE .
They teach if one has love and does good they know GOD and are saved and fine . THAT IS A LIE MARK
and i would love to see you say the same .

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't remembe this either. Please post the Scripture or retract the . . . oh, nevermind!

Much love!

My friend , HE CANT . HE cannot bring the scripture to prove this , cause it aint there .
Of course the unworthy are invited to wedding . WE ALL WERE UNWORTHY of EVERLASTING LIFE .
WE ALL WERE . NO man is worthy of being INVITED . JESUS came not to save the RIGHTEOUS , BUT SINNERS .
AND lest any man thinks they aint a sinner , NO MAN IS RIGHTEOUS , NOT NOT ONE . NOT ONE .
NOT EVEN your grandma or mine . NO ONE IS . JESUS ALONE IS RIGHTEOUS , GOD IS RIGHTEOUS
and the invitation to the wedding IS TO THE UNRIGHTEOUS , TO COME TO JESUS so we can be made RIGHTEOUS .

 

[marks]

There are those who are the bride and those invited to the feast by the bride.

Scripture . . .

 

[marks]

My friend , HE CANT . HE cannot bring the scripture to prove this , cause it aint there .

That's my point. That will be another post not addressed, since there is no Scripture that teaches such a thing.

Much love!