The False One Who Makes the 7 Year Covenant of Daniel 9

[jeffweeder]

Well no you are not considering BOTH verses, and that's your error.

Of course I am by commentating on both verses.

If ONLY the Daniel 9:25 verse is read by itself, then it COULD be interpreted to mean after seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks is Messiah's coming.

Well what do you think that means? It cannot be before 69 weeks right?

But lo, the Daniel 9:26 verse tells us that after that SAME "threescore and two weeks" Messiah is CUT OFF.

How long after he arrived to begin his Ministry was he cut off? Do you not accept John the Baptists ministry of when he recognized him as Messiah?

Please address these questions if you want to discuss this more.

So there's no way around that 26th verse which YOU ARE OMITTING. (Now whether or not you are omitting that 26th verse phrase on purpose because of what you've wrongly been taught, or that you do it on purpose, that is still yet to be determined. I'd like to think you're doing that because of what you've been wrongly taught.

I am not omitting anything and haven't been taught by anyone.
Just trying to use my commonsense as I read my bible.

 

[Davy]

Of course I am by commentating on both verses.


Well what do you think that means? It cannot be before 69 weeks right?

How long after he arrived to begin his Ministry was he cut off? Do you not accept John the Baptists ministry of when he recognized him as Messiah?

Please address these questions if you want to discuss this more.

I am not omitting anything and haven't been taught by anyone.
Just trying to use my commonsense as I read my bible.

I have already shown you. You are pushing a doctrine of devils by trying to push Jesus' Ministry into the 70th week.

 

[Jay Ross]

And, further, where does this parable fit into this timeline?:

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his
vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then
said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come
seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth
it the ground?

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall
dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that
thou shalt cut it down." (Luk 13:6-9)

This parable's timespan is for ages. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 tells us that at the completion of the 2,300 years allotment for the Gentiles to trample God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts, that all of Israel will be saved. The start date for this prophecy is after Alexandra's empire is divided into four portions and the Little Horn influences one of the four heads of the third beast's manifestation in the sea of the people to act to begin the trampling of God's sanctuary and the trampling of God's earthly hosts. And Age is a little longer than 1,000 years. Presently Israel is coming to the end of its fourth age of existence. In this parable, God planted a fig tree in His vineyard and at the end of each age, God comes to visit the fig tree to see if it has produced any fruit. Now since Israel has actively indulged in Idolatrous worship, after the first three ages, God wishes for the fig tree to be cut down, however, the dresser of the vineyard interceded on behalf of the Fig Tree, i.e., Israel, and requested that the Fig Tree be allowed another age to live and see if, at the end of the fourth age, it has begun producing any fruit, at that time make the decision as to whether or not the fig tree should be cut down.

In Hosea 6:1-3 and in Lamentations 5:19-22 both speak of a period of two ages where God is walking contrary to the Israelites, and in the age that follows God begins to gather the Israelites to himself once more.

In Luke 14:34-35 Jesus tells this parable after telling the parable about the redemption of Israel after seeking Jesus' term for peace after the judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon and tells Israel that if they, i.e., the salt of the earth, loses their flavouring, then the salt, i.e., Israel should be discarded as Israel is no longer fit for the Land or the dung heap.: -

Luke 14:34-35: - 34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"​

NKJV​

Scripture tells us that a remanent of Israel will be redeemed and that they will become a Nation of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession among the nations, in keeping with His covenantal promises.

Oh, the three-and-a-half-year period before the end of the earth, is actual 1,290 days, and not 1,260 days according to Daniel in Daniel 12:11. This understanding of Daniel's stuffs up the 360-day Prophetic year in our calculations of the timespans at the end of the ages.

Reading biblical prophecy is not difficult if we do not make it say what we want rather than what God decreed.

Shalom

 

[jeffweeder]

I have already shown you. You are pushing a doctrine of devils by trying to push Jesus' Ministry into the 70th week.

Do you believe Jesus Atoned for sin etc by shedding his blood.?
Do you believe Gabriel said this would come to pass in 70 weeks??
Are you going to ignore these questions as well???
Do you believe Heb 9????

11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior].




15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.




24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.



24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and
to anoint the Most Holy Place.


Placing the 70th week in the future means he will deal with sin in the future. Thats wrong according to Heb 9:28 isnt it Davy.?

Im out.

 

[Davy]

Once again brethren, be careful with listening to those who try to push Lord Jesus' Ministry into Daniel's 70th week. There are several factions out there that try to push that error, and it's obvious they do not care about the actual events written in that Daniel 9:27 verse.

Notice the acts the one in Daniel 9:27 does in that 70th week...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Firstly, we must go back to the previous Daniel 9:26 verse to pick up the subject of that "he" there.

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" in verse 27 is actually pointing back to that "prince that shall come" that did what? That "prince" is about the Roman general Titus that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D, roughly 41 years after Jesus had already been crucified.

So it is IMPOSSIBLE to apply that "he" of verse 27 to Lord Jesus.


Secondly, Lord Jesus made NO seven year covenant with anyone. The Covenant Jesus offered was The New Covenant of His Blood for the remission of sins of those who believe. And that AIN'T no seven year covenant!

Also, at the "middle of the week" that same "he" there is to cause the sacrifice and oblation to end (in Jerusalem). Jesus didn't do that, for the Jews continued their daily sacrifices and oblations up to 70 A.D. when the Romans ended them and destroyed the temple.

And that part in verse 27 about "the overspreading of abominations", that is about the Daniel 11:31 event of placing the abomination that maketh desolate! (an IDOL in false worship).

Evidently, those who try to push all this on Lord Jesus are insane, because that is about the very "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus Himself WARNED about in His Olivet discourse for the 'end' that the coming Antichrist will do!! (see Matthew 24:15-31).

Oh how some of God's people love... to be deceived by devils! And this is a major deception those that try to push these events by the coming Antichrist at the end of this onto Lord Jesus Himself! Those deserve a gold star of deception.


For those with 'eyes to see, and ears to hear':
...there is a 'catch' to how the "he" in Daniel 9:27 points back to that "prince" in verse 26. That "prince" that destroys the city and the sanctuary we know was fulfilled by the Roman general Titus in 70 A.D. But it is not often noted that Titus is a 'type' for the Final Antichrist. That is why the "he" of verse 27 points back to Titus, that "prince" (which can also means 'commander' per the Hebrew).

It is certain that one who comes to destroy Jerusalem and the temple is an enemy of God, and is thus serving the devil as an "antichrist". No matter that God pronounced sentence upon Jerusalem, as He has done many times in Old Testament history when Israel rebelled against Him. God used His enemies to punish though, and that should be understood about Titus, and... the one who will fulfill that final 70th week also, the Final Antichrist.

And we 'know'... that Titus did NOT place an IDOL abomination inside the temple at Jerusalem to cause the temple to become spiritually desolate. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the temple burned down before the Romans could get possession of it. Thus the "abomination that maketh desolate" prophecy that Lord Jesus forewarned about from Daniel about the 'end' of this world, the Romans did not fulfill that. And no one else has done that either since Jesus came to die on the cross and quoted the Daniel prophecy about it for the end of this world.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth
it the ground?

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall
dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that
thou shalt cut it down." (Luk 13:6-9)

My current understanding is this is about "Christ, In His earthly Ministry, seeking
fruit from His people, Israel." Am I mistaken about this?

Yes, AD 34.

You are not mistaken. That is also the view of most commentators.

Appreciate your kindness and patience with me/my questions! So, let me review:

• 3.5 years Christ's earthly ministry "seeking fruit from Israel" (Covenant people)
• 
  
• finding Very Little, then:
• 30 AD, Christ "cut off" (crucifixion/death) middle of 69th 70th week (of Daniel)
• 
  
• After His Resurrection/Ascension, God Permitted one more year to find out IF:
  • national Israel will "repent and bear Much fruit"?
• 
  
• 31 AD, Did Israel "fall" (Rom 11:7-12) when they blasphemed The Holy Spirit,
  • speaking through Stephen, when?:

"...they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears,​

and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the​

city, and stoned him..."​

So, my next question here would be:

What Scriptural Evidence in the [ final 2.5 ] years of 32-34 AD would help me to believe the
70th week was actually accomplished/ended, and that "Christ is ruling/reigning" according
to these prophecies?

"Arise, shine; for thy Light is come, and The Glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD Shall Arise
upon thee, and His Glory Shall Be Seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
and kings to the brightness of thy rising." (Isaiah 60:1-3)

+

"Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
and to pray before the LORD. Thus Saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to
pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of
the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with
you." (Zechariah 8:22-23)

What am I missing? still learning...

 

[covenantee]

Appreciate your kindness and patience with me/my questions! So, let me review:

• 3.5 years Christ's earthly ministry "seeking fruit from Israel" (Covenant people)
• 
  
• finding Very Little, then:
• 30 AD, Christ "cut off" (crucifixion/death) middle of 69th week (of Daniel)
• 
  
• After His Resurrection/Ascension, God Permitted one more year to find out IF:
  • national Israel will "repent and bear Much fruit"?
• 
  
• 31 AD, Did Israel "fall" (Rom 11:7-12) when they blasphemed The Holy Spirit,
  • speaking through Stephen, when?:

"...they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears,​

and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the​

city, and stoned him..."​

So, my next question here would be:

What Scriptural Evidence in the [ final 2.5 ] years of 32-34 AD would help me to believe the
70th week was actually accomplished/ended, and that "Christ is ruling/reigning" according
to these prophecies?

"Arise, shine; for thy Light is come, and The Glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD Shall Arise
upon thee, and His Glory Shall Be Seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
and kings to the brightness of thy rising." (Isaiah 60:1-3)

+

"Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
and to pray before the LORD. Thus Saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to
pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of
the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with
you." (Zechariah 8:22-23)

What am I missing? still learning...

Thanks. I'll reply in installments. Jeff and rwb, feel free to contribute.

30 AD, Christ "cut off" (crucifixion/death) middle of 69th week (of Daniel)

30 AD, Christ "cut off" (crucifixion/death) middle of 70th week (of Daniel)

 

[covenantee]

After His Resurrection/Ascension, God Permitted one more year to find out IF:

• national Israel will "repent and bear Much fruit"?

God actually permitted more than 30 years, as the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea did not occur until 70 AD.

 

[covenantee]

31 AD, Did Israel "fall" (Rom 11:7-12) when they blasphemed The Holy Spirit

Interesting question. I wouldn't consider them to have fallen until 70 AD, as I'm certain that if they had turned to Christ in the intervening 30-some years, they would have been shown mercy. All of the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea were shown mercy, as Jesus warned them to flee prior to the Roman invasion (Matthew 24:15-16), and history records that they fled to the mountains of Pella and escaped.

 

[rwb]

Appreciate your kindness and patience with me/my questions! So, let me review:

• 3.5 years Christ's earthly ministry "seeking fruit from Israel" (Covenant people)
• 
  
• finding Very Little, then:
• 30 AD, Christ "cut off" (crucifixion/death) middle of 69th 70th week (of Daniel)
• 
  
• After His Resurrection/Ascension, God Permitted one more year to find out IF:
  • national Israel will "repent and bear Much fruit"?
• 
  
• 31 AD, Did Israel "fall" (Rom 11:7-12) when they blasphemed The Holy Spirit,
  • speaking through Stephen, when?:

"...they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears,​

and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the​

city, and stoned him..."​

So, my next question here would be:

What Scriptural Evidence in the [ final 2.5 ] years of 32-34 AD would help me to believe the
70th week was actually accomplished/ended, and that "Christ is ruling/reigning" according
to these prophecies?

"Arise, shine; for thy Light is come, and The Glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD Shall Arise
upon thee, and His Glory Shall Be Seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
and kings to the brightness of thy rising." (Isaiah 60:1-3)

+

"Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
and to pray before the LORD. Thus Saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to
pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of
the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with
you." (Zechariah 8:22-23)

What am I missing? still learning...

The final seven symbolizes the perfect and complete work of Christ as He ushered in the spiritual Kingdom of God for all who believe in Him. The work of Christ as Messiah/Savior was finished at the cross, just as He said when He died on the cross. The end of the final week would come after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven. That's when Christ was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him, His dominion and kingdom is everlasting and shall never be destroyed. His ascension is also when He sent His Spirit to be in whoever believes. It is through the preaching of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit that the Kingdom of God in heaven came to earth with all power.

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 (KJV) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

John 16:7 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Once the final week ended, the spiritual Kingdom of God would spread throughout all the earth in this age we are now in, called the Gospel age. Just as Isaiah, and Zechariah foretell Gentiles from many nations of the world will come into the spiritual Kingdom of God until these last days should be finished, time given this earth shall be no longer.

 

[dismas]

Once again brethren, be careful with listening to those who try to push Lord Jesus' Ministry into Daniel's 70th week. There are several factions out there that try to push that error, and it's obvious they do not care about the actual events written in that Daniel 9:27 verse.

Notice the acts the one in Daniel 9:27 does in that 70th week...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Firstly, we must go back to the previous Daniel 9:26 verse to pick up the subject of that "he" there.

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" in verse 27 is actually pointing back to that "prince that shall come" that did what? That "prince" is about the Roman general Titus that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D, roughly 41 years after Jesus had already been crucified.

So it is IMPOSSIBLE to apply that "he" of verse 27 to Lord Jesus.


Secondly, Lord Jesus made NO seven year covenant with anyone. The Covenant Jesus offered was The New Covenant of His Blood for the remission of sins of those who believe. And that AIN'T no seven year covenant!

Also, at the "middle of the week" that same "he" there is to cause the sacrifice and oblation to end (in Jerusalem). Jesus didn't do that, for the Jews continued their daily sacrifices and oblations up to 70 A.D. when the Romans ended them and destroyed the temple.

And that part in verse 27 about "the overspreading of abominations", that is about the Daniel 11:31 event of placing the abomination that maketh desolate! (an IDOL in false worship).

Evidently, those who try to push all this on Lord Jesus are insane, because that is about the very "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus Himself WARNED about in His Olivet discourse for the 'end' that the coming Antichrist will do!! (see Matthew 24:15-31).

Oh how some of God's people love... to be deceived by devils! And this is a major deception those that try to push these events by the coming Antichrist at the end of this onto Lord Jesus Himself! Those deserve a gold star of deception.


For those with 'eyes to see, and ears to hear':
...there is a 'catch' to how the "he" in Daniel 9:27 points back to that "prince" in verse 26. That "prince" that destroys the city and the sanctuary we know was fulfilled by the Roman general Titus in 70 A.D. But it is not often noted that Titus is a 'type' for the Final Antichrist. That is why the "he" of verse 27 points back to Titus, that "prince" (which can also means 'commander' per the Hebrew).

It is certain that one who comes to destroy Jerusalem and the temple is an enemy of God, and is thus serving the devil as an "antichrist". No matter that God pronounced sentence upon Jerusalem, as He has done many times in Old Testament history when Israel rebelled against Him. God used His enemies to punish though, and that should be understood about Titus, and... the one who will fulfill that final 70th week also, the Final Antichrist.

And we 'know'... that Titus did NOT place an IDOL abomination inside the temple at Jerusalem to cause the temple to become spiritually desolate. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the temple burned down before the Romans could get possession of it. Thus the "abomination that maketh desolate" prophecy that Lord Jesus forewarned about from Daniel about the 'end' of this world, the Romans did not fulfill that. And no one else has done that either since Jesus came to die on the cross and quoted the Daniel prophecy about it for the end of this world.

In general, I totally agree with this post. The 'he' in Dan 9:27 is referring back to Dan 9:26 - great point!

The thing is is that the preterists (who definitely have an agenda on this forum and others) have confounded things so much, many posters go out of their way to cater to their view point. Put differently, you didn't even need to address the issue of Titus.

Revelation is based on Dan 9:26 and Dan 9:27. The 'people of the prince to come' are the 'locusts' of the 1st woe/ 5th Trumpet. The covenant of Dan 9:27 is made in the middle of the 2nd woe at Rev 10:1's 'rainbow' (covenant after the 'flood' of Dan 9:26 which lasts for 5 months (150 days of Gen 7:24 - the 'flood' of Dan 9:26 is the 5 months of locusts in the 5th Trumpet + the war that is killing off a third of mankind in Rev 9:13-21 at the 1st part of the 2nd woe.

The start of the day of the Lord's wrath cuts off the grain & wine offering (communion bread & wine) in Joel 1:4-15. The 'locusts' of Joel are the 'locusts' of the 1st Woe in Revelation. Animal sacrifices are cut off at Dan 9:27 (the 'zebach' sacrifices are animal sacrifices) at the 7th Trumpet. The 2 witnesses are dressed in sackcloth because the grain & wine offering has been cut off (Joel 1:13) (thus, the 2 witnesses are post-grain & wine sacrifices being cut off and pre- animal sacrifices being cut off).

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The final seven symbolizes the perfect and complete work of Christ

I may have to study some more on 'number' symbolism, as I thought 7 was for 'perfect',
and 12 was for 'complete' - I have my own study comparing 12 and One - ie:

Biblical 'Representations' of Twelve and ONE​

The work of Christ as Messiah/Savior was finished at the cross, just as He said when He died on the cross.

agree - HIS 'FULL Payment' For The Penalty of our sin.

The end of the final week would come after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven. That's when Christ was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him, His dominion and kingdom is everlasting and shall never be destroyed.

Thanks, I appreciate you sharing your point of view - I have several involved questions for this section, but it is getting late here. So, I'll ask them tomorrow...have a good one...

 

[jeffweeder]

In general, I totally agree with this post.

Beware of those who have Jesus atoning for sin in the 69th week instead of the prophesied 70th.

The 'he' in Dan 9:27 is referring back to Dan 9:26 - great point!

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

27 And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”

 

[covenantee]

The 'he' in Dan 9:27 is referring back to Dan 9:26 - great point!

True. In fact all of the "he's" in Daniel 9:27 refer back to the "prince" in Daniel 9:26.

And the "prince" in Daniel 9:26 refers back to "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25.

There is only one individual identified as a prince in the passage.

That is Messiah the Prince.

 

[rwb]

I may have to study some more on 'number' symbolism, as I thought 7 was for 'perfect',
and 12 was for 'complete' - I have my own study comparing 12 and One - ie:

Yes, the spiritual significance of numbers in Scripture can be challenging. I believe the number seven rather than representing perfection is often numerically illustrating the 'totality or completeness' of whatever is in view. It is the 'all inclusiveness' of a thing. For example, the seven Churches of Asia (Revelation 1-3) represent the 'totality' of God's congregations throughout the world.

The Numbers ten and it's multiples (100, 1000) sometimes illustrates the completeness or fullness of whatever is in view, without it "necessarily" being the totality.

The number 12 I have come to believe spiritually represents the congregation of God. The example being twelve sons of Jacob representing the twelve tribes of the children of Israel, which was the Old Covenant representation of the Church in the wilderness. This is more clearly illustrated in the description of heaven as defined in Rev 21-22.

I know this is brief but I hope it helps.

I will be out of town for the next couple of months, so I may not be able to participate in the forums as much as I would like to. But I will try. Many Blessings

 

[amigo de christo]

Behold i come as a thief , blessed are those who do watch and keep their garments .
The Coming of the glorious LORD draws ever nigh indeed .
Be prepared to be hated in this world , persecuted and even killed . Times shall only worsen
with what little time there be left . Fear not man or what he can do . HOPE IN CHRIST and let all that draws breath
praise the glorious LORD .

 

[covenantee]

I may have to study some more on 'number' symbolism, as I thought 7 was for 'perfect',
and 12 was for 'complete' - I have my own study comparing 12 and One - ie:

Biblical 'Representations' of Twelve and ONE​

I appreciate your understanding of 12. In context it can also represent faithfulness, as in the understanding of the identity of the 144,000 in Revelation.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[dismas]

True. In fact all of the "he's" in Daniel 9:27 refer back to the "prince" in Daniel 9:26.

And the "prince" in Daniel 9:26 refers back to "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25.

There is only one individual identified as a prince in the passage.

That is Messiah the Prince.

Yes, they are the same.

The 'man of sin' is that 'anointed one'.

Not going to discuss it further.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

IF 30 AD is the midst [3.5 years] of the 70th week, then the End of it should have
been 33-34, Correct?

Yes. The cov is confirmed with signs and wonders for the whole last week for Daniels people Israel.
Jesus for the first half of the week with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and his disciples for the last half of the week through the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel then went to the Gentiles.

"cov" is your abbrev (abbreviation) of "covenant"? Don't want to have any misunderstanding...

 

[covenantee]

The 'man of sin' is that 'anointed one'.

Not in my Bible. What version are you reading from?