Eric E Stahl said:
These are tribulation Saints killed by Mystery Babylon under the alter in heaven.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Sorry, but this simply does not fit. The days of "great tribulation" where mass murder of martyrs will take place is found after chapter 13. This is before John has opened the 70th week. This is before the rapture of the church which ends the church age.
This is like dominoes, if one domino is tipped, they all fall. IF someone misses where the rapture is, or where the 70th week begins, everything else will be theory instead of truth.
Start with the vision in chapters 4 & 5. Ask yourself the same questions God asked me:
Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many scriptures saying that is where I went to be?
Why was "no man found" worthy in the search that ended in failure, when if you read ahead I was found?
Why was the Holy Spirit in the throne room in chapter 4 when i said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?
One can seldom get the timing of the first seals without being able to answer these questions correctly.
Next, where does the 70th week begin? Where does the Day of the Lord begin? Unless we can answer these correctly, how could one know much of anything else? Many people say they are pretrib, and don't know where John starts the "trib." Many try to push the start of the Day of the Lord off to the end of the week, but John and the Holy Spirit start it in Rev. 6. Many try to start the 70th week with the first seal, not understanding that seal was broken in 32 AD. We must learn to answer these questions correctly.
The 70th week is "clearly marked," (God's words, not mine) by the 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. So when JOhn saw the great crowd in heaven in chapter 7, that is before he has even started the 70th week.
These martyrs are seen before the rapture of the church, so they are church age martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs, what they said would make no sense; they would KNOW they only have to wait 7 years. But if they were early church age martyrs, of course then could not know this age would continue all the way to today, and they would wonder and ask "HOW LONG?"
veteran said:
Those heeding these Pre-Trib Rapture believers here are going to really deserve what they get.
The truth is, NONE of US get what we deserve. We deserve to end up in hell forever. but through God's grace, we are born again to everlasting life. What pretribbers will "get" is to spend the 7 years in heaven, while hell comes to planet earth. You could escape what is coming,if you choose to, but if you choose to set your own appointment with His wrath, I believe God will honor that. Good luck trying to survive. The will of the Father is that you will be overcome by the Beast.
Trumpeter said:
The opening of the fifth seal brings forth the cries of slain martyrs. Jesus spoke of this hour in Matthew 24:9, 10. Hear Him: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another."
Please read Chapter 4 again. Rediscover that this reference is to Tribulation saints composed of elect Israelites and those Gentiles converted by the preaching of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. These persecuted saints and martyrs are not part of the Church -the body of Christ and the bride of the Saviour- already in glory (chapter 4:1).
These martyred saints are seen under the altar. In the Old Testament, the altar always referred to the place where the blood had been sacrificed. Souls will be saved during the Tribulation hour the same way souls are saved today -through the precious shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Because the believers of the Tribulation hour proclaim Christ crucified, they lose their lives. At this point every 20th-century believer should ask himself the question, "Would there be enough evidence to convict me as a Christian during this period of time were I present?" However, in this age of grace, we also will be the losers if we attempt to be secret disciples, never testifying of our faith in Christ Jesus. The Saviour said, "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32, 33).
God bless.
Sorry, it is a myth that the rapture takes place in 4:1. A beginning reader would tell us that was JOHN caught up. Chapter 4 is the vision of the throne room. The 24 elders is NOT the church, for the timing here is just before Jesus rose from the dead. In 5:6 John saw the moment Jesus ascended into heaven after rising from the dead. That was perhaps 32 AD. Sorry, not the time of the rapture. The answer given to those under the alter is a HINT to the time of the rapture. The church already raptured in chapter 7 is a very strong hint to the timing of the rapture. It is not in 4:1.
Lamad
