The Five Points of Calvinism

[Waiting on him]

No, it means you are a person with a soul, meaning a total person consisting of flesh, mind and spirit.

So your spirit acts through your mind and communicates through your flesh.

How’d you get the tract?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Because this question ultiamately comes down to the nature of God.

Yes, God is all powerful. But He is also all loving. Real love is given voluntarily. Real sheep voluntarily follow a real shepherd. And God offers that love and gift to ALL men.

You are right. It does come down to the nature of God. We know God is not a respector of persons. For the gospels sake we believe and submit to it is of God and not in any way by our own doing. It is not of those called but of He who calls. We submit to it not being based off our flesh, knowing it is not our goodness or willingness to follow but rather accept it as a gift given freely by God who leads. When we assert we have something to do with following...we condemn all those who haven’t heard or followed and neglect the gosple of grace and mercy to all. we show it is not by us but of God and in this those who haven’t seen or heard have a chance in that it is a gift of God offered to every man not by favor but by love. Not based of merit but mercy to all. We submit to it not being of us but of God FOR their sake. The rebellious also. 1 Peter 2:13-17 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men . Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

[CoreIssue]

You are right. It does come down to the nature of God. We know God is not a respector of persons. For the gospels sake we believe and submit to it is of God and not in any way by our own doing. It is not of those called but of He who calls. We submit to it not being based off our flesh, knowing it is not our goodness or willingness to follow but rather accept it as a gift given freely by God who leads. When we assert we have something to do with following...we condemn all those who haven’t heard or followed and neglect the gosple of grace and mercy to all. we show it is not by us but of God and in this those who haven’t seen or heard have a chance in that it is a gift of God offered to every man not by favor but by love. Not based of merit but mercy to all. We submit to it not being of us but of God FOR their sake. The rebellious also. 1 Peter 2:13-17 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men . Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

I believe the best descriptive of God is Just.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You are right. It does come down to the nature of God. We know God is not a respector of persons. For the gospels sake we believe and submit to it is of God and not in any way by our own doing. It is not of those called but of He who calls. We submit to it not being based off our flesh, knowing it is not our goodness or willingness to follow but rather accept it as a gift given freely by God who leads. When we assert we have something to do with following...we condemn all those who haven’t heard or followed and neglect the gosple of grace and mercy to all. we show it is not by us but of God and in this those who haven’t seen or heard have a chance in that it is a gift of God offered to every man not by favor but by love. Not based of merit but mercy to all. We submit to it not being of us but of God FOR their sake. The rebellious also. 1 Peter 2:13-17 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; [14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: [16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men . Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

(backing up here, trying just to understand what you believe, regardless of anything else)
How can you say "We know God is not a respector of persons" and believe that he picks some people to go to heaven and some go to hell?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I have several times:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they followme:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Christ is the Good Shepherd. A shepherd leads his sheep from the front and they voluntarily follow Him out of love. This is different than a sheep herder who forcefully drives his sheep from the back with dogs and other tools.
Christ leads his sheep from the front and those disciples voluntarily follow Him out of love. It is not out of force. As long as a person choose to follow Christ, they will be saved and not lost.

This is all about love and a person voluntarily following Christ. It is a passage fundamentally opposed to Calvinism.

Thanks for trying Jane. Most of your explanation ignores what the passage gets at. It is not opposed to Calvinism as we will see...Allow me to simplify it

What reason is given in verse 26...why those people do not believe?
The answer is given in the 5 words after the word because:...you are not me sheep
Comment on that verse alone.
It says nothing about following, it has to do with who they were..
Goats.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thanks for trying Jane. Most of your explanation ignores what the passage gets at. It is not opposed to Calvinism as we will see...Allow me to simplify it

What reason is given in verse 26...why those people do not believe?
The answer is given in the 5 words after the word because:...you are not me sheep
Comment on that verse alone.
It says nothing about following, it has to do with who they were..
Goats.

If you are trying to imply a person was involuntarily turned into sheep and now forced to follow Christ, that's just to in there.
Sorry, but it's just not.

 

[Waiting on him]

If you are trying to imply a person was involuntarily turned into sheep and now forced to follow Christ, that's just to in there.
Sorry, but it's just not.

If Mr smith said it were so could you receive it?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

(backing up here, trying just to understand what you believe, regardless of anything else)
How can you say "We know God is not a respector of persons" and believe that he picks some people to go to heaven and some go to hell?

You keep going back to hell. Hell, the grave, death ...all are swallowed up in victory. Consider only ...to say it is based off the sheeps willingness to follow because to you this looks more like love and less like force...this excludes in that only the sheep which do follow are included.

Based of He who calleth ALL men ...this is love in that NONE are excluded. For the rebellious also...


Psalm 68:18-20
[18] Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them . [19] Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah. [20] He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

If Mr smith said it were so could you receive it?

I'm asking you a sincere question, trying to understand what you believe, and get a response of ... you being facetious.

If you don't know the answer to my question or hadn't thought about it or for some other reason don't want to answer, that's ok. I'm not here to make you uncomfortable, and apologize if this has been the case.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You keep going back to hell. Hell, the grave, death ...all are swallowed up in victory. Consider only ...to say it is based off the sheeps willingness to follow because to you this looks more like love and less like force...this excludes in that only the sheep which do follow are included.

Based of He who calleth ALL men ...this is love in that NONE are excluded. For the rebellious also...


Psalm 68:18-20
[18] Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them . [19] Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah. [20] He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.

I am simply looking at the whole picture-- that includes heaven AND hell. I can't ethically just ignore half the picture.
If you believe the only way a person gets to heaven is because God does the picking, then that means God picks who goes to hell too.
How can do you see God being no respecter of persons while also believing in the above?

 

[Waiting on him]

I'm asking you a sincere question, trying to understand what you believe, and get a response of ... you being facetious.

If you don't know the answer to my question or hadn't thought about it or for some other reason don't want to answer, that's ok. I'm not here to make you uncomfortable, and apologize if this has been the case.

I’m being sincere.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am simply looking at the whole picture-- that includes heaven AND hell. I can't ethically just ignore half the picture.
If you believe the only way a person gets to heaven is because God does the picking, then that means God picks who goes to hell too.
How can do you see God being no respecter of persons while also believing in the above?

I’m suggesting He swallowed hell, the grave and death up in victory for ALL men.

So which is it? Did He swallow hell, the grave and death up in victory for ALL men ...or did He swallow hell, the grave and death up in victory...only for the sheep who willingly follow?

Your persistence to maintain “free will” and call it love rather than force is self-centered and insistent on your own “free will” to willingly follow ...which excludes all those who don’t follow. This is the one selective and claiming favor for a select few. (And not for the rebellious also.)

2 Peter 1:21
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
[24] Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[Helen]

I’m suggesting He swallowed hell, the grave and death up in victory for ALL men.

So which is it? Did He swallow hell, the grave and death up in victory for ALL men ...or did He swallow hell, the grave and death up in victory...only for the sheep who willingly follow?

AMEN!!

I'm with you 100% . To God be all the glory!

 

[farouk]

This thing implies it’s something I can perform at carnal will

James 1.18: "Of His own will begat he us with the word of truth..."

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I’m being sincere.

This conversation is not about Smith or Paul or Samual or Billy Bo Bob. If you want to talk to about about any of those people, feel free to give me a PM or start a new thread.

Now, back to talking about a person's relationship with Christ, whether such a relationship is received voluntarily or by force.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I’m suggesting He swallowed hell, the grave and death up in victory for ALL men.

So you believe all men go to Heaven and there is no Hell?
(Just trying to get that straight

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So you believe all men go to Heaven and there is no Hell?
(Just trying to get that straight

You want straight up honesty without being vague or coy? That doesn’t mean it is right but yes...I believe hell, the grave, and death were swallowed up in victory for ALL men. IMO we are to give the mercy we have been given and that is what makes us chosen. I’m sorry if I was harsh in the other post. I grew up under a bullies rule and get what you are saying and why you hesitant although there is no way I can fully know what you’ve experienced. We act afraid to submit to His will over our own and call it what it is: God rules for the sake of all. Now the flesh seems to be ruling but when that all comes falling down, as it already has...He sets up a new rule where there is freedom and justice and love and equality. Abundant peace. So yeah, no more death, or grave, or hell. He holds the keys to both. You get that right, the one you know to be love has the keys of hell and of death in His hand.

Revelation 1:18
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

“The great Amen.”

 

[farouk]

I’m being sincere.

The question of the perceived authority of religious leaders is relevant.

The Scriptures should be the yardstick.

 

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
[3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Tecarta BibleMay be a good verse to solidify this

By the same Spirit those who are truly born again cry 'Abba, Father' (Romans 8.15).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You want straight up honesty without being vague or coy? That doesn’t mean it is right but yes...I believe hell, the grave, and death were swallowed up in victory for ALL men. IMO we are to give the mercy we have been given and that is what makes us chosen. I’m sorry if I was harsh in the other post. I grew up under a bullies rule and get what you are saying and why you hesitant although there is no way I can fully know what you’ve experienced. We act afraid to submit to His will over our own and call it what it is: God rules for the sake of all. Now the flesh seems to be ruling but when that all comes falling down, as it already has...He sets up a new rule where there is freedom and justice and love and equality. Abundant peace. So yeah, no more death, or grave, or hell. He holds the keys to both. You get that right, the one you know to be love has the keys of hell and of death in His hand.

Revelation 1:18
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

“The great Amen.”

This post helped me understand your perspective SO much more. Thank you for it.

Also, thank you for the humility within your words here and the... your words ring honest.


I am now... my brain feels like it go the missing piece here and now suddenly sees the logic behind your beliefs and thoughts here. I don't agree with your perspective, but I do now feel like I can see the logic and the reasoning behind what you believe (as well as a fuller understanding of what that is). And that feels good.

Thank you.