The Five Points of Calvinism

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jane_Doe22,

[If you are trying to imply a person was involuntarily turned into sheep and now forced to follow Christ, that's just to in there. Sorry, but it's just not.]

What is not "there is your ability to answer a question, so I will help you.
Here was the question...I will only deal with one at a time as you have not given a direct response yet.

What reason is given in verse 26...why those people do not believe?
The answer is given in the 5 words after the word because:...you are not me sheep

Jesus explained why they did NOT BELIEVE...BECAUSE
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,

Here is the part of this section that you are avoiding like the ebola virus

1] Jesus has sheep that are His

2] They are given to Him before the world was by The Father.

3] Those who remain in unbelief are not Jesus sheep.

4]Jesus seeks and saves every one of His sheep

5] Jesus dies for His sheep, a multitude that no man can number.

6] Jesus is mediator and surety, that is the guarantee for each and every sheep.

7]Sheep Know Jesus and His teaching, goats do not

as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Comment on that verse alone.
That was not hard was it...you try

[by the way this was not in my answer];
[If you are trying to imply a person was involuntarily turned into sheep and now forced to follow Christ,]

People were elected to be sheep before the world was.
from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

 

[Enoch111]

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep...

The plain meaning of this is simply that those who do not believe are not saved, therefore not sheep. God does not prevent them from believing, neither does He ensure that they will not believe under any circumstances. Quite the opposite. He draws them to Christ but in the end they must obey the Gospel.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

(At this point I'm just trying to figure out were your logic of your beliefs are here, pushing aside everything else)

4]Jesus seeks and saves every one of His sheep

5] Jesus dies for His sheep, a multitude that no man can number.

Does scripture not say that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son"? (emphasis mine)

People were elected to be sheep before the world was.

And other people were created just to be goats and sent to Hell?

 

[Enoch111]

Does scripture not say that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son"? (emphasis mine)

Exactly. And to drive the point home, Jesus went on to say in verse 17:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

That one verse thoroughly demolishes Calvinism. And that is why its adherents tell us that we misunderstand *world*, and God did not really mean *world* and the translators should really have put *elect* into those two verses! And God does not really want all men to be saved and none to perish! It is totally amazing how the lies of Satan have become Gospel truth for some people.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

[QUOTE="Enoch111,

[The plain meaning of this is simply that those who do not believe are not saved, therefore not sheep.]

No, Jesus spoke plainly and told them WHY they do not believe

[God does not prevent them from believing, neither does He ensure that they will not believe under any circumstances. Quite the opposite. He draws them to Christ but in the end they must obey the Gospel.]

You are disagreeing with Jesus I am afraid.;
jn6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Your statement rejects what Jesus taught plainly

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jane_Doe22
(At this point I'm just trying to figure out were your logic of your beliefs are here, pushing aside everything else)
okay. I knew you could not answer, but this is progress
Does scripture not say that "God so loved the world

Yes it does. Israel thought the Messiah would only come for them as in Amos;3

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

that He gave His only begotten Son"? (emphasis mine)

Yes the love of God is in the giving of the Son.....That everyone believing and continuing on in a condition of belief will be saved
[And other people were created just to be goats and sent to Hell?]

Now look, I have answered this three times in this thread already. If you are lazy and ignorant I will not answer you. You have to read what is offered to learn, or remain ignorant. If I posted something you believe is error, quote what I posted and show why it is wrong biblically...I do not care what you "feel'" about it. I want you to show in the bible why it is wrong.

Now I will show how you are not reading the answers, you are just objecting.

People were elected to be sheep before the world was.
from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11;Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Enoch111,
[That one verse thoroughly demolishes Calvinism.]
Dream on.. Is everyone in the world saved? or does salvation go worldwide, outside of Israel

And that is why its adherents tell us that we misunderstand *world*, and God did not really mean *world* and the translators should really have put *elect* into those two verses!

You do misunderstand and still, do. God meant world.....just not everyone in it;
jn 11 explains;

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

And God does not really want all men to be saved and none to perish!
Taking 2 pet.3:9 out of context does not help your cause. Everyone spoken of in 2pet3:9 is going to be saved, not one more, not one less

It is totally amazing how the lies of Satan have become Gospel truth for some people.

The only lie of Satan is your posts suggesting God cannot accomplish redemption for all of His elect sheep.
You suggest a god who cannot accomplish what He says He will do, rather than the God of grace who is described this way:
isa46;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

okay. I knew you could not answer, but this is progress

You misunderstand my intentions here. I am trying to understand what it is you believe and why. This is an effort to try to better understand and love you (and indirectly the larger Calvinist community). I am not here to debate or discover Truth or engage in proselytizing (giving or receiving). I am trying my hardest to charitable and patient here.

Do you better understand my purpose in this conversation now?
(Waiting to make sure this is clarified before continuing responding to things)

 

[Nancy]

Exactly. And to drive the point home, Jesus went on to say in verse 17:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

That one verse thoroughly demolishes Calvinism. And that is why its adherents tell us that we misunderstand *world*, and God did not really mean *world* and the translators should really have put *elect* into those two verses! And God does not really want all men to be saved and none to perish! It is totally amazing how the lies of Satan have become Gospel truth for some people.

"And that is why its adherents tell us that we misunderstand *world*"
(bolded mine) It ALWAYS comes down to this "misunderstanding" with them.

 

[Nancy]

You misunderstand my intentions here. I am trying to understand what it is you believe and why. This is an effort to try to better understand and love you (and indirectly the larger Calvinist community). I am not here to debate or discover Truth or engage in proselytizing (giving or receiving). I am trying my hardest to charitable and patient here.

Do you better understand my purpose in this conversation now?
(Waiting to make sure this is clarified before continuing responding to things)

Very well and gracefully written!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You misunderstand my intentions here. I am trying to understand what it is you believe and why. This is an effort to try to better understand and love you (and indirectly the larger Calvinist community). I am not here to debate or discover Truth or engage in proselytizing (giving or receiving). I am trying my hardest to charitable and patient here.

Do you better understand my purpose in this conversation now?
(Waiting to make sure this is clarified before continuing responding to things)

Jane, for us to interact it has to be a two-way street. ?For you to speak against what millions of saints understand as the truth of God does not seem to accomplish your stated purpose. When verses are offered you need to look at them and consider them if you hope to understand. Do you think that Calvinists seek to hurt people? They are Calvinists, because it is what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Calvin read it and wrote about it.Many teach on it. Most have not even read Calvin, they see it in scripture.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"And that is why its adherents tell us that we misunderstand *world*"
(bolded mine) It ALWAYS comes down to this "misunderstanding" with them.

Be truthful here Nancy...It is NOT the term world that is the issue, because nobody but a heretical universalist believes every person will be saved!
What is at issue and what you perhaps still fail to grasp is...THE EVERYONE BELIEVING.....is the elect sheep at the end of the day, because they only are...savingly drawn by the Spirit;
jn6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What is at issue and what you perhaps still fail to grasp is...THE EVERYONE BELIEVING.....is the elect sheep at the end of the day, because they only are...savingly drawn by the Spirit;

You will know them by the fruit. Matthew 5:44-48 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Seems pretty clear. Proverbs 25:21-22
[21] If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: [22] For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.

Hebrews 6:1
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 5:8-9
[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

“...obey him;” obey Him how?

Acts 20:35
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

because nobody but a heretical universalist believes every person will be saved!

Maybe not but what is wrong with hope? look at the models:

Exodus 32:31-32
[31] And Moses returned unto the Lord , and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. [32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Romans 9:3
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

James 3:9-10
[9] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. [10] Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Acts 20:35
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

It is more ‘blessed’ to give mercy than to receive mercy? This coming from the One that gave unto us all things pertaining to mercy. Christ.

Election.
chosen.
Is not to Lord it over others and claim ‘specialty’. He was chosen and loved those sinners first that didn’t know or love Him yet.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane, for us to interact it has to be a two-way street. ?For you to speak against what millions of saints understand as the truth of God does not seem to accomplish your stated purpose. When verses are offered you need to look at them and consider them if you hope to understand. Do you think that Calvinists seek to hurt people? They are Calvinists, because it is what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Calvin read it and wrote about it.Many teach on it. Most have not even read Calvin, they see it in scripture.

I will better understand what *you* believe and why *you* believe it if you would explain it with your own words. Something along the lines of "I believe ___ because ___".

Again, my efforts here are to better understand what *you* believe, not to engage in proselytizing (giving or receiving).

 

[Nancy]

Be truthful here Nancy...It is NOT the term world that is the issue, because nobody but a heretical universalist believes every person will be saved!
What is at issue and what you perhaps still fail to grasp is...THE EVERYONE BELIEVING.....is the elect sheep at the end of the day, because they only are...savingly drawn by the Spirit;
jn6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You, of course are free to express your views. I have been back and forth with this doctrine for a good 27 years and I find zero merit in it, nor do I see our compassionate God intentionally creating people specifically for hell. Trust me, I've heard all the scriptures and the "interpretations" ad nauseum so I shall kindly ask that you not put me through it all again.
God Bless

 

[CoreIssue]

You, of course are free to express your views. I have been back and forth with this doctrine for a good 27 years and I find zero merit in it, nor do I see our compassionate God intentionally creating people specifically for hell. Trust me, I've heard all the scriptures and the "interpretations" ad nauseum so I shall kindly ask that you not put me through it all again.
God Bless

With double the years you have there is absolutely no merit to Calvinism.

Calvinism is not fair, just, compassionate or loving.

 

[Enoch111]

You do misunderstand and still, do. God meant world.....just not everyone in it...

That is really cute. God is not is the business of misleading, deceiving, and confusing. But Satan definitely, and he has you hoodwinked. So let see what that word means as used in John 3:16,17.

Strong's Concordance (2889)
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Obviously it cannot mean worldly affairs or adornment. So what are we left with?
1. The universe.
2. The inhabitants of the world.

And God meant exactly that. All the inhabitants of the world are loved by God and therefore He sent His only begotten Son for their salvation.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Maybe not but what is wrong with hope? look at the models:

Exodus 32:31-32
[31] And Moses returned unto the Lord , and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. [32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Romans 9:3
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

James 3:9-10
[9] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. [10] Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Acts 20:35
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

It is more ‘blessed’ to give mercy than to receive mercy? This coming from the One that gave unto us all things pertaining to mercy. Christ.

Election.
chosen.
Is not to Lord it over others and claim ‘specialty’. He was chosen and loved those sinners first that didn’t know or love Him yet.

While election is clearly taught and 100% true,we are not told who God has elected so we desire to speak THE TRUTH IN LOVE to all persons,urgently presenting the love of God as it is found In Christ.
We do not give a false hope,rather we remain faithful to declare revealed truth as it is.
We do not have to change it,just to declare it and remove obstacles.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

That is really cute. God is not is the business of misleading, deceiving, and confusing. But Satan definitely, and he has you hoodwinked. So let see what that word means as used in John 3:16,17.

Strong's Concordance (2889)
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Obviously it cannot mean worldly affairs or adornment. So what are we left with?
1. The universe.
2. The inhabitants of the world.

And God meant exactly that. All the inhabitants of the world are loved by God and therefore He sent His only begotten Son for their salvation.

In John 17 Jesus declared....I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD,but for those you have given me out of the world. Have you ever noticed that a word can have different meanings? I do not mean to shock you Enoch, as you see satan in every other post evidently and you act as an accuser of the brethren.
God destroyed the "world" of the ungodly with the flood,Peter tells us.
Love not the world neither the things of the world,,John tells us.
Have you ever made these distinctions?
It does not sound as if you have. Instead you attack believers who understand the difference.
In scripture you need to read with understanding instead of offering shallow mistaken ideas.
In jn3:16 when correctly understood it is only everyone believing that are in view vs 18 mentions the condemned condition of those not believing.