The Five Points of Calvinism

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

With double the years you have there is absolutely no merit to Calvinism.

Calvinism is not fair, just, compassionate or loving.

I will gladly refute your false caricatures as it is not accurate.
Bring your best scriptural case C.I....do not make false unscriptural charges as your feelings do not carry the import of scripture

 

[VictoryinJesus]

While election is clearly taught and 100% true,we are not told who God has elected so we desire to speak THE TRUTH IN LOVE to all persons,urgently presenting the love of God as it is found In Christ.
We do not give a false hope,rather we remain faithful to declare revealed truth as it is.
We do not have to change it,just to declare it and remove obstacles.

Romans 11:30-36
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? [35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? [36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

“...how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!“ all I’m saying is His word says “how unsearchable are his judgments”

We can claim what we know all day long but we know far less about the lake of fire than we know what goes on inside a black hole. It is all speculation. Left up to man’s interpretation of what he thinks scripture says. Only God knows for sure. The Jews expected one thing when He came, but it went nothing like they imagined. All I’m saying is line up all God has commanded of His children concerning to bless and to not curse and to love those who use you, and He says this IS like your Father in Heaven.

Revelation 10:7
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


You are right...we don’t know.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I will better understand what *you* believe and why *you* believe it if you would explain it with your own words. Something along the lines of "I believe ___ because ___".

Again, my efforts here are to better understand what *you* believe, not to engage in proselytizing (giving or receiving).

Everything I post is what I believe.My personal words mean nothing unless they are grounded in scripture jn17:17.
I am not that smart, or clever.
The links I post are of more gifted persons.
If we want truth it is in scripture isa8:20.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Romans 11:30-36
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? [35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? [36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

“...how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!“ all I’m saying is His word says “how unsearchable are his judgements”

We can claim what we know all day long but we know far less about the lake of fire than we know what goes on inside a black hole. It is all speculation. Left up to man’s interpretation of what he thinks scripture says. Only God knows for sure. The Jews expected one thing when He came, but it went nothing like they imagined. All I’m saying is line up all God has commanded of His children concerning to bless and to not curse and to love those who use you, and He says this IS like your Father in Heaven.

Revelation 10:7
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


You are right...we don’t know.

We do not know who He elected.
That being said we know 100% that God has elected a multitude that no man can number and they are found by Jesus seeking and saving His sheep by the means of preaching the gospel to all men.
I do not hate t hat God is God, He is in control of all things that come to pass.
Can you say the same?

 

[CoreIssue]

I will gladly refute your false caricatures as it is not accurate.
Bring your best scriptural case C.I....do not make false unscriptural charges as your feelings do not carry the import of scripture

Already done. Where were you?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We do not know who He elected.
That being said we know 100% that God has elected a multitude that no man can number and they are found by Jesus seeking and saving His sheep by the means of preaching the gospel to all men.
I do not hate t hat God is God, He is in control of all things that come to pass.
Can you say the same?

Of course. God said His will and desire is that all men would be saved. That none perish. Is it bad (evil)then to want the same? If that is not the case in the end then I’ve already been perfectly content with those who have harmed me getting what they deserve. it is Him who showed the eternal benefit of their unbelief that others might obtain mercy. Romans 8:18
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

What glory will be revealed in us? As the Head so is the body? The children like the Father.

Romans 9:11
[11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

 

[VictoryinJesus]

He is in control of all things that come to pass.

Agree a hundred percent. Which means nothing has slipped out or beyond His will or fulfillment of His word. we continue to say it is God’s will all men come to Him and see the truth...yet man’s rebellion prevents God’s will. I’m sorry it doesn’t make sense. Either He is all-powerful and able to do the impossible...or it is in man’s control.

 

[CoreIssue]

Agree a hundred percent. Which means nothing has slipped out or beyond His will or fulfillment of His word. we continue to say it is God’s will all men come to Him and see the truth...yet man’s rebellion prevents God’s will. I’m sorry it doesn’t make sense. Either He is all-powerful and able to do the impossible...or it is in man’s control.

Freewill choice is God's will, even when not the desired outcome.

 

[Dave L]

A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on. Just as the boy controls the goat's free choices.

Here is the same from more sophisticated sources.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Freewill choice is God's will, even when not the desired outcome.

The vessels of destruction are so to break the vessels meant for His mercy. he created the waster to waste. It is an action. Not a title. As vessels of mercy are active mercy. Not a title. Those of unbelief do not believe for the elections sake...for our sake so we might obtain mercy as the elect of God. It is the humble and poor in Spirit that inherit the earth. It’s those broken vessels. The election stands and rest in God. Not based off either vessel but of God’s good pleasure and purpose. If you can’t see the good in it...I don’t know what else to say.

Psalm 34:18-20
[18] The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. [19] Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. [20] He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Hebrews 2:9-11
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Luke 23:34-35
[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him , saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.





Doesn’t that mean in Christ our sufferings were pre-ordained and prepared (Wrought of God) that through them we would be as the captain of our salvation? We keep saying ‘election’ but elected for what? That it would be of God and not man. It doesn’t end with us ‘elected’ we are the beginning....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Everything I post is what I believe.My personal words mean nothing unless they are grounded in scripture jn17:17.
I am not that smart, or clever.
The links I post are of more gifted persons.
If we want truth it is in scripture isa8:20.

I am specifically interested in *your* beliefs and logic, so your personal words actually mean a great deal here. If you would like to say something along the lines of "I believe ____ because _[scripture verse] _, which I understand to mean __ " that's totally cool.
Just posting a bunch of scriptures totally removes your thinking/logic from things, and hence is the opposite of helpful.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Already done. Where were you?

Send me a link and I will look it up and respond

 

[CoreIssue]

A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on. Just as the boy controls the goat's free choices.

Here is the same from more sophisticated sources.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

You and your ancient denominational sources. So we are Goats and God is a little boy.

Another cheap effort at proving Calvinism.

 

[CoreIssue]

The vessels of destruction are so to break the vessels meant for His mercy. he created the waster to waste. It is an action. Not a title. As vessels of mercy are active mercy. Not a title. Those of unbelief do not believe for the elections sake...for our sake so we might obtain mercy as the elect of God. It is the humble and poor in Spirit that inherit the earth. It’s those broken vessels. The election stands and rest in God. Not based off either vessel but of God’s good pleasure and purpose. If you can’t see the good in it...I don’t know what else to say.

Psalm 34:18-20
[18] The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. [19] Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. [20] He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Hebrews 2:9-11
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Luke 23:34-35
[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him , saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.





Doesn’t that mean in Christ our sufferings were pre-ordained and prepared (Wrought of God) that through them we would be as the captain of our salvation? We keep saying ‘election’ but elected for what? That it would be of God and not man. It doesn’t end with us ‘elected’ we are the beginning....

It means that without God our sufferings are brought about. Brought on us by ourselves, not God.

God uses them to accomplish his will and purposes, but he does not originate them in most cases.

Compare it to the lake of fire. In the new Jerusalem have a bounty of God's goodness. Those in the lake suffer the absence thereof.

 

[CoreIssue]

Send me a link and I will look it up and respond

They are scattered among the posts. You hunt them out.

 

[Dave L]

You and your ancient denominational sources. So we are Goats and God is a little boy.

Another cheap effort at proving Calvinism.

It's an illustration even the most simple minded can grasp. But it is deep theology for any willing to look into it.

 

[Enoch111]

In John 17 Jesus declared....I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD,but for those you have given me out of the world.

And the context makes it crystal clear that at that time Christ was praying for His disciples and His saints. No one would conclude that He was excluding the world from salvation.

Have you ever noticed that a word can have different meanings?

Yes, words can have different meanings and kosmos could also mean worldly affairs or adornment. But obviously those would not be applicable. On the other hand you have rejected the plain meaning -- which is the inhabitants of the world -- because you hold to a distorted Gospel. And yes every false Gospel ultimately comes from Satan, since every lie comes from Satan.

God destroyed the "world" of the ungodly with the flood,Peter tells us.

And before He destroyed the ungodly He gave them 120 years to repent. Which again proves that your doctrine is false.

Love not the world neither the things of the world,,John tells us. Have you ever made these distinctions?

Of course I have. The context of that passage is perfectly clear. It means "the things of the world" which means worldly desires, worldly ideas, worldliness, all of which are under the control of "the god of this world". Once again totally irrelevant to what we are discussing.

In jn3:16 when correctly understood it is only everyone believing that are in view vs 18 mentions the condemned condition of those not believing.

You choose to persist in your error even though the whole context from verse 14 shows that God has given His only begotten Son to be the Savior of the world, and Scripture makes it crystal clear that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

And when you do that you misrepresent the character of God and Christ and distort the Gospel. But this is typical of Calvinists who would rather die fighting for their false Gospel than admit it is all a lie and repent. Just goes to show that no matter how many Scriptures are clearly presented, people who have believed false teachings will never give them up.

 

[CoreIssue]

It's an illustration even the most simple minded can grasp. But it is deep theology for any willing to look into it.

It is totally misleading.

 

[Dave L]

It is totally misleading.

No it isn't. Everything you do is a reaction to a cause that is under God's immediate control. You freely choose according to the reasons he uses to control you.

 

[CoreIssue]

No it isn't. Everything you do is a reaction to a cause that is under God's immediate control. You freely choose according to the reasons he uses to control you.

God sets the parameters in which we operate. Within those parameters we have free will.

Calvinism does not have parameters, it has strings and we are the puppets.