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Featured The Five Points of Calvinism

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Dave L, Jan 31, 2019.

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  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Let's see; Mormonism teaches;

    God used to be a man on another planet and Mormon members may become gods of their own worlds.
    - There are many many gods.
    - The Trinity is three separate Gods.
    - Entrance into celestial heaven is by the consent of God and the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith.
    - God has a body of flesh and bones.
    - God is married and produces spirit babies by having physical relations with his goddess wife.
    - Jesus, Satan, and all of us are spirit brothers and sisters procreated in a pre-existent spirit life.
    - God had relations with Mary to make Jesus’ body.
    - You must shed your own blood for the forgiveness of some sins.
    - Good works are necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

    And you think Calvin is off track?
     
  2. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    What I was TRYING to say, or should have said, is that the 5 points of Calvinism were rejected by The Church a LONG time ago. Why is it ok to accept it NOW? How is something that was once rejected by The Church now accepted?

    Mary
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    This is not true. The Catholics strayed away from them (Augustinianism) but the Reformers restored the doctrines clarified by Luther and Calvin.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Two wrongs don't make a right.
     
  5. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Dave, remember the conversation we had about learning about other people's beliefs for real? Your information here is very flawed.
    I do not accept Calvinism at all, but I am willing to get my facts straight on what it is Calvinists believe and answer any question about what it is I believe and why.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  6. Josiah

    Josiah Active Member

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    The more I study the Bible, the more I hold that "ULIP" is not only wrong, but horrible and terrifying.

    Now, I agree with the "T" (although I'd put it the opposite, from the perspective of the Gospel, of John 3:16)

    And I agree with PART of the "U" - the positive Election of the saved, but NOT that God equally desires the "reprobate" to fry eternally in hell and equally causes them to go there (like the Council of Orange, like Scripture, I accept SINGLE or positive predestination, the Gospel of Election but not the dogmatization of the pagan philosophy of Fate and the denial that God desires all to be saved.

    The "L" is just outright wrong. There is no verse that states Jesus died for ONLY and unknowable few. The Bible specifically (and verbatim) states that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "for all people" Scripture states the exact opposite of this denomination tradition of a few radical Calvinists. Now, some Calvinists (who like to delete faith from salvation) CLAIM that if Jesus died for all then all would be saved (the reason much of radical Calvinism invented universalism) but this is only because they disallow the issue of faith. Jesus died for all.... but not all have faith. Correct, not all are saved but this is not because the Cross was amiss, because Jesus only died for an unknowable few, it's because not all have faith and thus don't apprehend it and thus benefit from it. They simply delete "that whosoever believes in Him" from John 3:16

    The "I" is also unbiblical, or maybe more accurately, abiblical. It is a new invention of these tiny few latter-day radical Calvinists that simply has no Biblical affirmation.

    The "P" may be the most terrifying of all. Because it confirms that no one can know if they are saved or not..... the OBJECT of faith doesn't matter but rather if that faith is genuinely comes from GOD (which of course, no one can know). The "L" means that many are trusting in the Savior who is not THEIR Savior... the "P" means that the object of faith is irrelevant anyway.

    Calvin never taught these things.... his theology stresses monergism and is one of comfort. But a tiny number of very radical, extremist, latter-day followers - insisting on the saying the opposite of what Arminianists said - twisted all that into something as unbiblical and terrifying as the Arminianists did - they just make God the reason rather than self.




    .
     
  7. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    I think I am a bit confused about what you are saying so I will digress....

    Respectfully Mary
     
  8. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Ok. The Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth and “this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”
    (Luke 22:53)

    John 19:10-11
    [10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? [11] Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
     
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  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I’m not Calvinist I don’t think. not really sure what the argument is. Some are chosen? Some are not? OR God draws all men?

    Can it be both? Obviously some are chosen. Thing is I guess is whether a person believes they had anything to do with being chosen. Deuteronomy 10:16
    [16] Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

    Colossians 2:11
    [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


    Can a person circumcise their own heart, the circumcision made without hands? Or does God do it? If He draws all men but doesn’t circumcise their heart or remove the vail over their eyes for them to see....but chooses some , ordained in Christ Jesus unto good works...then others are not chosen. Why?

    Since God is not a respecter of persons....then are ‘the chosen’ for all men? For the benefit of all men? If we do nothing to be chosen then they did nothing to not be chosen...only remaining under the bondage of vanity rather then able(through mercy) to see the personhood of the Son who was the exact opposite of under the bondage of vanity. Instead, the Son crucified vanity, hatred, the pride of life, lust, the poison of the tongue and that which devours ...putting it to death openly for all men.
     
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  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Who says they didn't comprehend what went on at the cross? They did and simply rejected it.

    I worked with a guy years ago who said the Bible is real and true, God exist and is real and true and Christ is God and real and true.

    But he didn't care. He simply refused to bow to and submit to God. He would rather burn in the lake for eternity that to give up his freedom.

    Calvinism goes very wrong in this regard. They assume those chosen for damnation cannot say instead of understanding they do not want to be saved.

    Catholics and those who believe in salvation by works refuse to knowledge they do not earn their salvation.

    Athiest simply believe there is no need for God.

    So many people make excuses, invent doctrines and even whole religions to satisfy their vanity.

    Just look at Satan. He knew the truth better than any human who has ever lived on this earth. But his vanity ruled him.

    Calvinism teaches those God chose are the elite. They got made them better than everyone else.

    Vanity folks.
     
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  11. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, that veil is the flesh. Man cannot remove it. In Hebrews He refers to the veil in the temple as the flesh of Christ, and he rent it; this is the same thing he does for the newly born. No man has any part in this it’s solely an act of God. Just like you had nothing to do with your natural birth. Had man been able to perform this God would not have sacrificed himself. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a glory seeker and rejects Christ sacrifice.
     
  12. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    The way I see it, is the question ultimately comes down to the nature of God. Is God a --

    A) Being of hatred and force. Whom created some people to enslave his will upon, and some to torture for eternity.
    or
    B) A being of love, whom offers his gift to all mankind, to whomever would accept it.

    Again, with all due respect to whatever you believe, I find Calvin's TULIP ideas to be teaching option A, and it's not something I agree with. I find scripture to teach of God's love for all mankind, that he's not a respecter of persons, and anti-force/slavery.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Calvin, Luther and all the Reformers were Augustinians. The Council of Ephesus (431) proved Augustine was right and Pelagius wrong in their debates about sin and total depravity. Calvin, and Luther especially wrote books on this. Luther wrote the Bondage of the Will, refuting free will claimed by the apostate Catholic Church. And Calvin wrote the "Institutes of the Christian Religion, confirming Augustine's victory over Pelagius. It broke the back of the Roman Catholic Church and launched the Reformation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    The Bible never teaches some are for salvation and some for damnation. It says God wants us all to be saved, not just some.

    God witnesses to us via the Scriptures, the law of conscience and the whispering of the Holy Spirit.

    We either accept the invitation or rejected. If we accept it by the baptism of the Holy Spirit sin nature is stripped from our spirits. If we reject it to stay in sin 100% and are damned.

    So the only role we play is this to accept or deny the invitation.

    Calvinism is a lie.
     
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  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    I think the first 3 points are true. The remaining 2 need some adjustment.
     
  16. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I’ve never read any of Calvin’s literature,but I have read in the Bible that Satan is a liar, and he wants to promote the flesh; pride,vanity,lust etc,
    I’ve also read in first Corinthians the status of man he typically chooses base,despised,poor,etc not many wise not many noble. The reason why he chooses whom he does is so no flesh will glory in his presence. In lay terms this means I don’t stand in front of him and say, look at me I got the special sauce, I’m like the hamburgler. No pride that was all part of the veil he removed it’s behind me naild to a tree.
     
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  17. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I’d say (B)...of course that is an opinion but as you said, it is important as to who God is to a person. Although (B) still implies man has the ultimate decision when man is the not the decider of
    Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    We can not imply man can remove the veil covering his heart which veil is done away with in Christ. God chooses. God when to remove the veil. And for who.
    2 Corinthians 3:14-15 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.



    So we are back to (A) and
    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
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  18. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    If pride is present the the veil has not been removed.id suggest as brother Paul did that we examine ourselves!
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  19. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    If God only reaches out to some, then he only loves some men.
    If God forces things, then he does not love at all.
    And I'm sorry, I do not find such a Calvinistic view to be in the Bible. I respect your beliefs, but I do not agree with them.
     
  20. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    OK....so you are saying that since Calvin and Luther agree with Augustine then The Church is wrong?

    I sincerely apologize if I am misunderstanding you. :(

    Mary
     
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