The Five Points of Calvinism

[amadeus]

This is the problem with denominationalism. You are how old and you just now begin to gain knowledge of some of the pillar doctrines of the Christian Church?

Everyone I guess has an idea of what is important. To me reading the Bible is important. Other books with regard to religion sometimes interest me, but an in depth study of the so called TULIP would accomplish what? What would it likely find or conclude beyond what several people on this forum and other Christian forums of my experience have not already concluded and shared? You would I guess state that according to the Bible the first three points are valid. You have found support for your position, but will God definitely support you in that position?

 

[amadeus]

Why do babies die if the wages of sin is death?

Why does anyone die since we were all dead from the first man Adam until and if we received Life from Jesus?

 

[amadeus]

You have your creeds. Why do you depend on them? Just that Christian Creeds go back to the early church. And yours are only recent by historic standards.

Here again is your problem, my friend. You speak of "historic standards" instead of God's standards as if the two were necessarily the same. Man's written history is from what I understand very unreliable being filled with errors and holes. These are your historic standards. You insist on them while God through scripture really does speak of living by faith, not by the evidence to be found through secular or scientific studies or through the works of man on things religious. You go to the superficial winners [as men see them to be winners] of the discussions or arguments according to what you have said. What I see in man's history is the Catholic Church [superficially as per your methods] coming out on top. Yet, you are not Catholic. Is there a defect in the way you have handled things and drawn your conclusions?

 

[Nancy]

Because by one man, death came into this world, and people die, what has that got to do with sin..

I thought the same thing. And, isn't it "spiritual death" that came into the world? God did tell Adam and Eve they would surely die if they ate of that tree! Well, they were still living, breathing humans for many years before their death...

 

[mjrhealth]

I thought the same thing. And, isn't it "spiritual death" that came into the world? God did tell Adam and Eve they would surely die if they ate of that tree! Well, they were still living, breathing humans for many years before their death...

It was both, because of sin and corruption our bodies die, but because of their sin they where separated from God and so spiritually they where dead, but we are made alive again in Christ, when we believe, but who believes...

 

[Marymog]

I'm not a Calvinist per se but think the first three points are solidly based on scripture.

Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal to His faithful lambs, us Christians, these 5 points? If they are "solidly based on Scripture", wouldn't He have revealed them to us sooner?

I guess it's possible that you do not think that God revealed this to Calvin so my questions may be a mute point.

Mary

 

[Enoch111]

Man's written history is from what I understand very unreliable being filled with errors and holes.

Very true. History was written by the winners and was frequently self-serving. But written the Word of God is a divine record, primarily of the history of Israel, and secondarily that of humanity. Even the history which is presented as prophecy in Daniel revolves around Israel, Jerusalem, and the Jews.

 

[Dave L]

Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal to His faithful lambs, us Christians, these 5 points? If they are "solidly based on Scripture", wouldn't He have revealed them to us sooner?

I guess it's possible that you do not think that God revealed this to Calvin so my questions may be a mute point.

Mary

Actually, it was in 431 that the Council of Ephesus first presented what we now call the 5 points. And these doctrines were present in Paul's teaching especially in Romans 9. The council only tested and approved the conclusion after Augustine and Pelagius Morgan debated the issue. Pelagius lost saying people had free will not to sin if they chose. Augustine said the will is bound by sin.

 

[Josiah]

I'm not a Calvinist per se but think the first three points are solidly based on scripture.

The first one is (although it's backwards).... the rest of TULIP (the ULIP) are all very contradictory of Scripture.

 

[Helen]

Im okay on 4 but not on Limited Atonement...
Jesus didn't do half a job.

The first Adam dropped us all in, the Last Adam pulled us all out.

 

[Enoch111]

The first Adam dropped us all in, the Last Adam pulled us all out.

In which case Unconditional Election becomes a farce. And so does Irresistible Grace. The finished work of Christ was for all humanity, but only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

So now you are down to two untenable theories. That's better than Dave's four, or the Calvinists five.

 

[Enoch111]

Augustine said the will is bound by sin.

Not really. Here are his exact words from Extract from Augustine's Retractions (Book II, Chapter 66) written by St. Augustine of Hippo in A.D. 426 or 427 and quoted at length in the New Advent Encyclopedia.

"But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love...Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will... [after several Bible quotations] Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will...What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will?...

It is, however, to be feared lest all these and similar testimonies of Holy Scripture (and undoubtedly there are a great many of them), in the maintenance of free will, be understood in such a way as to leave no room for God's assistance and grace in leading a godly life and a good conversation, to which the eternal reward is due... Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing... When God says, Turn ye unto me, and I will turn unto you,Zechariah 1:3 one of these clauses — that which invites our return to God — evidently belongs to our will; while the other, which promises His return to us, belongs to His grace. Here, possibly, the Pelagians think they have a justification for their opinion which they so prominently advance, that God's grace is given according to our merits..."

According to this quotation, the false doctrine of Pelagius was that grace is given according to our merits. Then we find this chapter heading in which Augustine says:

Chapter 31 [XV.]— Free Will Has Its Function in the Heart's Conversion; But Grace Too Has Its.
Lest, however, it should be thought that men themselves in this matter do nothing by free will, it is said in the Psalm, Harden not your hearts; and in Ezekiel himself, Cast away from you all your transgressions, which you have impiously committed against me; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; and keep all my commandments. For why will you die, O house of Israel, says the Lord? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord God: and turn ye, and live. Ezekiel 18:31-32... There is, however, always within us a free will — but it is not always good; for it is either free from righteousness when it serves sin — and then it is evil — or else it is free from sin when it serves righteousness — and then it is good. But the grace of God is always good; and by it it comes to pass that a man is of a good will, though he was before of an evil one. By it also it comes to pass that the very good will, which has now begun to be, is enlarged, and made so great that it is able to fulfil the divine commandments which it shall wish, when it shall once firmly and perfectly wish.

 

[Dave L]

Not really. Here are his exact words from Extract from Augustine's Retractions (Book II, Chapter 66) written by St. Augustine of Hippo in A.D. 426 or 427 and quoted at length in the New Advent Encyclopedia.

"But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love...Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will... [after several Bible quotations] Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will...What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will?...

It is, however, to be feared lest all these and similar testimonies of Holy Scripture (and undoubtedly there are a great many of them), in the maintenance of free will, be understood in such a way as to leave no room for God's assistance and grace in leading a godly life and a good conversation, to which the eternal reward is due... Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing... When God says, Turn ye unto me, and I will turn unto you,Zechariah 1:3 one of these clauses — that which invites our return to God — evidently belongs to our will; while the other, which promises His return to us, belongs to His grace. Here, possibly, the Pelagians think they have a justification for their opinion which they so prominently advance, that God's grace is given according to our merits..."

According to this quotation, the false doctrine of Pelagius was that grace is given according to our merits. Then we find this chapter heading in which Augustine says:

Chapter 31 [XV.]— Free Will Has Its Function in the Heart's Conversion; But Grace Too Has Its.
Lest, however, it should be thought that men themselves in this matter do nothing by free will, it is said in the Psalm, Harden not your hearts; and in Ezekiel himself, Cast away from you all your transgressions, which you have impiously committed against me; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; and keep all my commandments. For why will you die, O house of Israel, says the Lord? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord God: and turn ye, and live. Ezekiel 18:31-32... There is, however, always within us a free will — but it is not always good; for it is either free from righteousness when it serves sin — and then it is evil — or else it is free from sin when it serves righteousness — and then it is good. But the grace of God is always good; and by it it comes to pass that a man is of a good will, though he was before of an evil one. By it also it comes to pass that the very good will, which has now begun to be, is enlarged, and made so great that it is able to fulfil the divine commandments which it shall wish, when it shall once firmly and perfectly wish.

Thanks, I need to look into this before commenting. But I think the Westminster Confession, Chapter 3 v 1 says the most on free will of any creed. I summarize it this way. Divine Sovereignty VS Free Will? We freely choose according to the nature God instilled in us. And He controls all circumstances that cause us to react according to his plan.

 

[Dave L]

The first one is (although it's backwards).... the rest of TULIP (the ULIP) are all very contradictory of Scripture.

I think the more you study the bible the more you will see the first 3 points along with me. The remaining 2 are close but need refinement.

 

[Phoneman777]

When ppl denounce the 5 Points - which may be backed up with copious Scripture - it's as if the denunciations have little to do with Scripture, and a lot to do with an apparent determination to reject them.

Regarding Unconditional Election, when Jesus said we cannot be His disciple unless we "hate" father, mother, wife, son, daughter, it should be immediately evident to the reader that Jesus did not mean "feel intense or passionate dislike, contempt, animosity, etc." -- He merely meant "prefer less".

When God confesses "hate" for Esau and pronounces judgment against him "for thy violence against thy brother Jacob" - the Scriptural "evidence" by Calvinists for why some are elected and others aren't - does that mean God feels "intense or passionate dislike, contempt, animosity, etc." toward Esau? Absolutely not. As the judge may hand down a death sentence for a murderer with heartfelt sorrow the offender chose the path of destruction instead of that of the law abiding, so God's hand of judgment is moved against the sinner by a heart pained with sorrow and intense longing that righteousness would have been chosen instead of sin for which divine justice demands satisfaction.

Whatever other arguments for "Unconditional Election" there may be, I'm sure they can be overthrown as easily as what I've shown here. Calvinism is nothing more than a Christianized brand of Satanic "exclusivity religion" by which Calvin unfortunately allowed himself to be seduced - no different than the "secret knowledge" that secret Luciferian societies pridefully claim as "truth" while jealously withholding it from the rest of the "undeserving, unwashed masses". As did also the Jewish nation in the time of Jesus, so do Calvinists in Christianity today.

 

[Dave L]

Regarding Unconditional Election, when Jesus said we cannot be His disciple unless we "hate" father, mother, wife, son, daughter, it should be immediately evident to the reader that Jesus did not mean "feel intense or passionate dislike, contempt, animosity, etc." -- He merely meant "prefer less".

When God confesses "hate" for Esau and pronounces judgment against him "for thy violence against thy brother Jacob" - the Scriptural "evidence" by Calvinists for why some are elected and others aren't - does that mean God feels "intense or passionate dislike, contempt, animosity, etc." toward Esau? Absolutely not. As the judge may hand down a death sentence for a murderer with heartfelt sorrow the offender chose the path of destruction instead of that of the law abiding, so God's hand of judgment is moved against the sinner by a heart pained with sorrow and intense longing that righteousness would have been chosen instead of sin for which divine justice demands satisfaction.

Whatever other arguments for "Unconditional Election" there may be, I'm sure they can be overthrown as easily as what I've shown here. Calvinism is nothing more than a Christianized brand of Satanic "exclusivity religion" by which Calvin unfortunately allowed himself to be seduced - no different than the "secret knowledge" that secret Luciferian societies pridefully claim as "truth" while jealously withholding it from the rest of the "undeserving, unwashed masses". As did also the Jewish nation in the time of Jesus, so do Calvinists in Christianity today.

Blaspheming God based on lack of bible study is not wise.

 

[Helen]

In which case Unconditional Election becomes a farce. And so does Irresistible Grace. The finished work of Christ was for all humanity, but only those who obey the Gospel are saved.
.

That doesn't make sense... =quote;- "the finished work of Christ was for all humanity".....yes, and PERIOD.
But only those who come to Him in response to His call know that they are saved...the rest blindly go their own way, not comprehending what went on at the cross.

 

[Phoneman777]

Blaspheming God based on lack of bible study is not wise.

Blaspheming God in any case is unwise

 

[Dave L]

Blaspheming God in any case is unwise

You need to study objectively before drawing any conclusions.

 

[Phoneman777]

You need to study objectively before drawing any conclusions.

OK, thank you