The folly of Preterism

[Waiting on him]

Luke 9:1 records: "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

It’s pretty clear this was given to hid disciples. It takes some sort of narcissistic approach too read this and assume this is about you.

 

[Waiting on him]

It’s what I refer to as a LARPER, a live action role player. It’s like I read the book Harry Potter and in vision myself as being the main character in the book. Where in scripture are we told to assume these things are even speaking of us?

 

[WPM]

If this were the case people would see it, but you have no power or authority, other than what you claim which is a whole lot of nonsense.

Please do not speak on my behalf or on that of other authentic Christians who have proved God's Word to be true and effective. Manifestly, your defeated impotent Christianity neutralizes the power of God within the believer and exalts the power of Satan.

Notably, you failed to address any of the biblical evidence I presented. All you can do is dismiss and reject the truth of God before you. You do not seem to have an ability to engage in normal theological discussions.

1 Peter 5:8: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[WPM]

It’s what I refer to as a LARPER, a live action role player. It’s like I read the book Harry Potter and in vision myself as being the main character in the book. Where in scripture are we told to assume these things are even speaking of us?

Ahhhh! Ok, this explains a lot. You look to a book on witchcraft for your arguments and evidence but rubbish those who stand upon the Word of God. That says a lot. That tells us where you are coming from.

 

[WPM]

It’s pretty clear this was given to hid disciples. It takes some sort of narcissistic approach too read this and assume this is about you.

So Christians are not the NT Church today? They do not operate under the great commission? What else in the NT do you not agree with?

Jesus taught before His ascension in Mark 16:15-20:

15 Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

• This was an incredible assignment delegated to the Church.
• This was an incredible assignment delegated to you believer.

Christians are now partnering with God to deliver sinful men from the devil’s grip. They are rescuing those who have been subject to the wrong voice and restrained by chains. If we could just grasp the importance of taking God at His Word and not question Him then we would see a tremendous victory in our day.

The Gospel is light! It exposes the darkness. It brings spiritual enlightenment to sinful humans.

If you choose to walk in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

 

[WPM]

Op Note!

Please note: no Preterist has any answer to this Op. All they can do is duck around the issues.

 

[Always Believing]

Premils make much of the phrases “rule all nations with a rod of iron” and “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” and build an elaborate paradigm on the wording.

The Bible is not a paradigm of wording. Neither is believing those words as written.

They interpret them to mean ‘a 1,000 years Messianic rule over the subjugated nations of the world from natural Jerusalem

Sounds better every time I hear about it. Don't forget about the resurrected saints ruling with Him, and the saved Christians flowing up to hear Him, while holding to the skirts of Jews living all around Him, on the land He gives to Abraham.

A close look at the passages in view reveals

Another rejection of the words of the Bible, to make them say something else.

that there is no such detail in the sacred text. Such a scheme is not mentioned anywhere in these verses. That alone is grounds to question it. They argue this as if the wicked somehow survive the coming of Christ. This is quite strange as the detailed account in Revelation 2, 12 and 19 actually suggest the opposite to what they infer. Rather than showing the wicked nations inheriting the new earth these reading in fact collectively show their complete destruction at Christ’s return.

The key word here, and often misunderstood, is the word “rule.” Premil imports a lot into this word in this passage, as if the text is describing the commencement of some golden-age-reign of Christ and the saints after the second coming – that will see them impose righteous rule upon numerous surviving nations that dodge the wrath of God at His return. However, this word poimaino simply means to shepherd, to supervise or govern. The same shepherd that tends to His sheep also protects the sheep and separates the sheep from the goats – as in the New Testament depictions.

You are missing the crucial point. The word poimaino shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

Why do you ignore the crucial words suntribo (to break to shivers) in Revelation 2:25-27 and patasso (to smite) in Revelation 19:15?

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

Yes, the same battle described at the end of Rev 20. These are parallel passages, they reveal recaps.

I'm seeing the sense of others to ignore copy and paste. No wasted time.

 

[Always Believing]

Christ and His people never stop reigning. That only occurs in your "BIG devil and small god" theology.

They stop reigning over nations on this earth after a thousand years of exercising rule, and they never reign in heaven over His angels.

Only on the new earth will they reign again and forever.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Always Believing]

Op Note!

Please note: no Preterist has any answer to this Op. All they can do is duck around the issues.

As the Duke would say, they remind you of you.

 

[WPM]

As the Duke would say, they remind you of you.

No. Full Preterist are like Premils: they are prone to avoidance when their theology is exposed.

 

[WPM]

The Bible is not a paradigm of wording. Neither is believing those words as written.


Sounds better every time I hear about it. Don't forget about the resurrected saints ruling with Him, and the saved Christians flowing up to hear Him, while holding to the skirts of Jews living all around Him, on the land He gives to Abraham.


Another rejection of the words of the Bible, to make them say something else.


I'm seeing the sense of others to ignore copy and paste. No wasted time.

Once again, you have no answer to the Scriptures. You wonder why we repeat arguments. The evidence is never addressed. To do so would cause you and your fellow Premils to embrace the biblical truth of a climactic return of Christ.

 

[WPM]

They stop reigning over nations on this earth after a thousand years of exercising rule, and they never reign in heaven over His angels.

Only on the new earth will they reign again and forever.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Who said we are ruling over the elect angels in heaven? You should read what others write before coming to mistaken conclusions. Jesus has given the Church power over the demonic realm during this current millennial period.

 

[Always Believing]

Who said we are ruling over the elect angels in heaven?

Ok then. You claim to be reigning in heaven with Christ. If you are not reigning over angels, as He does, then exactly what is this reign of yours over in heaven? What exactly are you reigning over in heaven?

If you're not actually reigning over anything, then what's the point of 'reigning'? Are you just sitting up in heaven saying, "I reign. I reign."

Sounds like someone in padded room.

 

[WPM]

Ok then. You claim to be reigning in heaven with Christ. If you are not reigning over angels, as He does, then exactly what is this reign of yours over in heaven?

We are reigning on earth. We are spiritually seated in heavenly places. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound.

 

[Always Believing]

We are reigning on earth. We are spiritually seated in heavenly places.

"So, He is reigning now? Correct. This proves that Rev 20 relates to the here-and-now. God's elect are spiritually reigning with Him in heaven and on earth now." (23 reasons against premil, post 892)

You people have no integrity. I'm surprised you even back off, when your teaching is exposed.

No one is ever reigning with Christ in heaven but God. There is only one way to reign in heaven, and that is spiritually. And only the man Christ Jesus will ever be a resurrected man spiritually reigning in heaven.

Now you can disavow the lying prophecy, that you will be helping the Lord to rule at His return with iron clubs, and wiping out the rest of the flesh, that the AC misses.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Lord does not come again just to stop the last AC from finishing his own killing spree work on earth, so that the Lord and His saints can do it for him.

You can't even prophecy the false christ accurately. You think he will accomplish killing off all flesh from the earth, before the true Lord and Christ comes to stop him from doing so. Your prophesied plans for killing all flesh on earth, will be stopped by Jesus Christ.

The end of the story is that your prophesied christ and you lose the war.

 

[WPM]

You people have no integrity. I'm surprised you even back off, when your teaching is exposed.

Now you can disavow the lying prophecy, that you will be helping the Lord to rule at His return with iron clubs, and wiping out the rest of the flesh, that the AC misses.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Lord does not come again just to stop the last AC from finishing his own killing spree work on earth, so that the Lord and His saints can do it for him.

You can't even prophecy the false christ accurately. You think he will accomplish killing off all flesh from the earth, before the true Lord and Christ comes to stop him from doing so.

I never back off with you because you have no biblical arguments. All you have in your arsenal is petty name calling and ad hominem. Your childish antics are ridiculous. I wish your mum policed you better. This is why i am all for better online monitoring of kids online. It would stop things like this happening.

 

[WPM]

"So, He is reigning now? Correct. This proves that Rev 20 relates to the here-and-now. God's elect are spiritually reigning with Him in heaven and on earth now." (23 reasons against premil, post 892)

You people have no integrity. I'm surprised you even back off, when your teaching is exposed.

No one is ever reigning with Christ in heaven but God. There is only one way to reign in heaven, and that is spiritually. And only the man Christ Jesus will ever be a resurrected man spiritually reigning in heaven.

Now you can disavow the lying prophecy, that you will be helping the Lord to rule at His return with iron clubs, and wiping out the rest of the flesh, that the AC misses.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Lord does not come again just to stop the last AC from finishing his own killing spree work on earth, so that the Lord and His saints can do it for him.

You can't even prophecy the false christ accurately. You think he will accomplish killing off all flesh from the earth, before the true Lord and Christ comes to stop him from doing so. Your prophesied plans for killing all flesh on earth, will be stopped by Jesus Christ.

The end of the story is that your prophesied christ and you lose the war.

You totally avoided my last post, as is your pattern. Each time you do this it only serves to reinforces the testimony of the Scripture you are rejecting. I refer you back to this avoided post.

Any way, what you are saying is wrong. You deny so much NT truth and make Jesus out to be misleading.

Colossians 1:12-14 tells us that God “Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

There are two spiritual kingdoms on this earth in constant conflict – the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of God. Every human being resides in one kingdom or the other.

Entry into the kingdom of God is through faith in Christ and His shed blood at Calvary. When you got saved you were delivered from one kingdom to another: from darkness to light, from the devil to God, from defeat to victory.

Paul similarly states in 1 Thessalonians 2:10-12: “Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called (kaleo -present, active, participle) you unto his kingdom and glory.”

The NKJV says: “that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.”

The ASV says: “that ye should walk worthily of God, who calleth you into his own kingdom and glory.”

Scripture makes clear that we are in the kingdom now. We have been called on to the kingdom now in the same way that we have been “called (kaleo) unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Corinthians 1:9).

These are obviously the dead in Christ reigning in heaven now. They are currently integral to the kingdom, and are also priests unto God.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

The word translated “kings” here is taken from the Greek word basileia (Strong’s 932), which refers to the Royal realm, normally it is rendered kingdom, or kingdom reign. The word translated “King” or “kings” in the New Testament is the Greek word basileus (Strong’s 935), which refers to an actual sovereign king.

This passage basically says that “God … has (currently) made us a kingdom and priests unto God.”

 

[Always Believing]

This passage basically says that “God … has (currently) made us a kingdom and priests unto God.”

You go from reigning in heaven to be the kingdom of God itself.

Where will it ever end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You keep trying to turn Jesus' resurrection, into the first resurrection.

LOL. I'm not trying to turn His resurrection into the first resurrection. Scripture teaches that His resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5).

It's what you teach to be an amil, and deny that His millennium on earth does not begin until the resurrection of His church.

This is what you said after I had said "I haven't died yet, so how can I think I've already been resurrected?". I do NOT teach that I've already been bodily resurrected. Stop lying.

By doing so, you teach His eternal kingdom will expire, as well as the first resurrection of the church is past.

I do NOT teach that. Stop lying about what I believe.

I can see now Paul must have been rebuking the amils of his day. The delusion they were under is the same as yours:

He taught amil, so I'm sure he was not rebuking amils in his day.

You believe you already have part in the first resurrection of the dead, and that you are now reigning and ruling with Christ on earth with a rod of iron, during His 'ever-extending' millennium past it's thousand years.

You're trying to make it as if I'm claiming to have already somehow been bodily resurrected, but I don't believe that. I believe Christians spiritually have part in Christ's bodily resurrection. Scripture teaches that.

It's all delusion, symbols, and simile.

Just walk up to any person's doorstep and declare you are now reining and ruling and exercising the authority of Christ on earth. Just don't dare them to shoot you, rather than submit to your earthly 'authority'. But hey, it's your life.

What a bunch of nonsense. You can't be taken seriously.

Being raised with Christ from the death of sins and trespasses, is not the first resurrection. It's the necessary part to be in the first resurrection to come.

By tying the first resurrection to the bodily resurrection of Christ, and declaring you now have part in it, you are declaring your own bodily resurrection with Christ.

No, I am NOT doing that. Don't tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe. And I do not believe that I am declaring my own bodily resurrection with Christ. That's nonsense. I have obviously not physically/bodily died yet, so I would not claim that I have been bodily resurrected. Why do you feel the need to resort to lies like this? Because you know you can't refute what I actually believe? You instead have to make things up that I don't even believe and pretend as if I do and then act like you have refuted my beliefs? That is very deceitful. Do you have no conscience about lying?

Once we strip down all the fluff, you see what you are really saying, but reject saying it.

Again, I will tell you what I believe. It's not your job to tell me what I believe. You clearly don't have a clue about what I believe. Or you are just lying about what I believe since you know you can't refute what I really believe.

As I said, all your doctrine is delusion, symbol, and simile, that has no footing on solid ground of Scripture. It's all of your own vain imagination.

All the lies you are saying about my doctrine come from your own vain imagination. A Christian should not have no conscience about lying the way you do. You need to repent before it's too late. Do you think you should only repent of other sins but lying is somehow okay?

You are teaching your own bodily resurrection is past, even as Jesus'.

No, I am not doing that. That is a lie. Stop your lying. What is wrong with you?

You say you're in it. But your OSAS doctrine rejects adding to your faith the things necessary to remain in it by never falling:

My OSAS doctrine? I don't even believe in OSAS. This shows even further how clueless you are about what Amils believe. There are Amils who believe OSAS and those who don't. That isn't a determining factor in what we believe when it comes to Revelation 20.

The church is not the everlasting kingdom of God, no more than the church is God.

You may like to think you are a resurrected god ruling in heaven with power and authority, as well as on earth, but you're not.

This is the same teaching of the serpent promising men to be as gods in heaven and on earth.

More lies from you. I do not claim any of these things. Why are you making things up? Do you understand that lying is a sin?

 

[Always Believing]

What a bunch of nonsense. You can't be taken seriously.

That what happens when people take you seriously. You can't believe it yourself.

Spirit-only not-literal reigning is less real than the stuff of children's playgrounds.

If you actually tried to put it into practise, they'd put you under lock and key.

And believe me, no angel in heaven will do as you say. Ever.