The folly of Preterism

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WPM

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Why do you not therefore believe what is written, saying "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me?" Have you seen me pass back through the gulf which none can past back through?

If you speak for yourself, speak for yourself. But if I speak for God who sent me and puts the words in my mouth--I ask again, Is such a thing not biblical?

You do not "speak for God." You are a heretic. You speak for yourself. You deny the Word of God. You contradict the words of Christ. You grieve the Spirit. You only speak for yourself and all your fellow Full Preterist heretics that deny the literal visible future coming of Christ.

You are full of pride!
 

ScottA

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You do not "speak for God." You are a heretic. You speak for yourself. You deny the Word of God. You contradict the words of Christ. You grieve the Spirit. You only speak for yourself and all your fellow Full Preterist heretics that deny the literal visible future coming of Christ.

You are full of pride!

So said the Pharisees, and so you shall be counted among them.
 

VictoryinJesus

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But you, you have seen and heard of it. Praise be to God!

That truly means a lot coming from you. It is encouraging and instantly warms me up to where you are someone I favor on here.

This is my question and puzzling though…I haven’t heard it from those who think I’m unworthy nor undeserving. If I heard what you said come from them I would fall down on my face and know I had witnessed His return for sure. Not to get in to long story-telling but I was in court before. I don’t think I imagined there was dark and light in that room. The working to cover up lies, but also work to bring to light. I tried to listen to what He said, it seems like darkness won though. Point is…if I heard it from those that day, if they had said at any point what you said or even acted like they were concerned about lies and cover up. I would have fallen over. That is what I consider waiting for His return. It is hopeful and expectant that He will be revealed. Does that make sense. That while I appreciate it from you, I can relate to Paul’s waiting for Christ to be resurrected in them??
 

VictoryinJesus

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some not even until it passes among them, to whom comes "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
This makes me think of the promised of:
to not be ashamed.

I’ve done a lot I’m ashamed of. But to me God is instructing that if we listen to Him we won’t have reason to be ashamed. To me this is what makes the last to be more than the first. Or the last better than the first. And how He wipes away all the tears from their eyes.
 
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ScottA

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That truly means a lot coming from you. It is encouraging and instantly warms me up to where you are someone I favor on here.

This is my question and puzzling though…I haven’t heard it from those who think I’m unworthy nor undeserving. If I heard what you said come from them I would fall down on my face and know I had witnessed His return for sure. Not to get in to long story-telling but I was in court before. I don’t think I imagined there was dark and light in that room. The working to cover up lies, but also work to bring to light. I tried to listen to what He said, it seems like darkness won though. Point is…if I heard it from those that day, if they had said at any point what you said or even acted like they were concerned about lies and cover up. I would have fallen over. That is what I consider waiting for His return. It is hopeful and expectant that He will be revealed. Does that make sense. That while I appreciate it from you, I can relate to Paul’s waiting for Christ to be resurrected in them??
I understand.

What is missing, even mystifying, is that we seemingly in a manner of speaking, held in stasis while we witness the glacier-like coming (again) of Christ in the flesh bringing about His perfection through our weakness. Some would call that "waiting", but truth be known--how can one wait for what was before the foundation of the world and has no real place in time except for the revealing of all things as they are made manifest as a witness to all who are Judged. Which is indeed hard to grasp, except to understand that this reading of the will, is not actually the will itself, though it does name all the contents.
 

ScottA

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This makes me think of the promised of:
to not be ashamed.

I’ve done a lot I’m ashamed of. But to me God is instructing that if we listen to Him we won’t have reason to be ashamed. To me this is what makes the last to be more than the first. Or the last better than the first. And how He wipes away all the tears from their eyes.
Jesus' referring to the last who would be first and the first last, does indeed have its principle in much of what is true with God.

However, He was specifically referring to Israel vs. the Gentiles, which are the two folds which Christ said He must bring to the Father. Israel was first born of the flesh, but because most were born before salvation came, they would be last to receive it. While the Gentiles who came after salvation came would be first to receive salvation as being born again of the spirit of God first, even though unlike Israel they were and are born of the flesh last.
 

jeffweeder

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Why do you not therefore believe what is written, saying "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me?"
Christ is not living your new life of faith for you is he? He is not speaking for you either. You are taking this to an extreme.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ [that is, in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

The life I now live in the body I live by faith [by adhering to, relying on, and completely trusting] in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.



We do not always get it right do we Scott??

Our life of faith grows in grace and matures over time.

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, continually seeing as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are progressively being transformed into His image from [one degree of] glory to [even more] glory, which comes from the Lord, [who is] the Spirit.

2Pet 3
17 Therefore, [let me warn you] beloved, knowing these things beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men [who distort doctrine] and fall from your own steadfastness [of mind, knowledge, truth, and faith], 18 but grow [spiritually mature] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory (honor, majesty, splendor), both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
 
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ScottA

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Christ is not living your new life of faith for you is he? He is not speaking for you either. You are taking this to an extreme.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ [that is, in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

The life I now live in the body I live by faith [by adhering to, relying on, and completely trusting] in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.



We do not always get it right do we Scott??

Our life of faith grows in grace and matures over time.

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, continually seeing as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are progressively being transformed into His image from [one degree of] glory to [even more] glory, which comes from the Lord, [who is] the Spirit.

2Pet 3
17 Therefore, [let me warn you] beloved, knowing these things beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men [who distort doctrine] and fall from your own steadfastness [of mind, knowledge, truth, and faith], 18 but grow [spiritually mature] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory (honor, majesty, splendor), both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Thanks for you sincere intentions, but this is not a discussion.

Strong delusion from believing a lie propagated by false preachers entered the church 2000 years ago was to come, and has come. Even so, all truth and the finish of the mystery of God was also to come, and has come. Thus, the narrative that you are speaking from did carry the water of the gospel to the ends of the earth--good job! But its time has been fulfilled, it's over.

Indeed, how shall we therefore live--by the lie, or by the truth? I have told you the truth, just as it was foretold.
 

Always Believing

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Quite the opposite. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Nowhere does it call the future resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They,

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Shall rule Them with Christ.
 

Always Believing

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Please quote one Amil who teaches this.
The Millinium rule of CHriwst and His saints over all nations is for a thousand years, after which it shall expire.

You say that is now, and call it is everlasting kingdom, and so you say it will expire.

Or you just change prophecy of Scripture again into something else of your own making.

You are not now ruling with Christ over all nations in His millennium on earth.

Entering into and reign in Christ on earth over our own lives, is not His millennium rule over all nations.
 

Always Believing

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We are talking about Jesus Christ here. Where does scripture teach that He would ever have a temporary kingdom?
And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand.

Christ's kingdom of the children of Israel after the flesh, was made temporary at the cross, due to their unbelief.

When you leave Scripture, you then leave reality. And say Christ never ruled over His kingdom of national Israel on earth, or that kingdom is still on earth.

And scripture never teaches that He would have 2 kingdoms, as you falsely believe, either.
Three actually with two temporary ones on earth.

The first is His everlasting kingdom with God and the Father.

The second was His kingdom of Israel after the flesh, which He ruled from heaven, until their unbelief.

The third will be His kingdom of all nations after the flesh, which He and His saints will rule with immortal bodies, until their thousand years expire.
 

Always Believing

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Right, and the context is that He was the first to be resurrected from the dead unto bodily immortality. Obviously, other people, like Lazarus, were resurrected before him, but not unto bodily immortality.
True.
He was the first to be resurrected from the dead. What is false about that? Nothing. His resurrection was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality. Paul indicated that in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 as well.

True. But Christ is not the first resurrection prophesied in Rev 20.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They are the first resurrection.



LOL. His resurrection was the first resurrection (unto bodily immortality), as scripture teaches.
True. Jesus is the first man ever to be resurrected bodily unto everlasting life with immortal flesh and bones.

You know that's true, but here you are trying to get around that with semantics.
You keep trying to turn Jesus' resurrection, into the first resurrection.


I haven't died yet, so how can I think I've already been resurrected?
It's what you teach to be an amil, and deny that His millennium on earth does not begin until the resurrection of His church.

By doing so, you teach His eternal kingdom will expire, as well as the first resurrection of the church is past.

I can see now Paul must have been rebuking the amils of his day. The delusion they were under is the same as yours:

You believe you already have part in the first resurrection of the dead, and that you are now reigning and ruling with Christ on earth with a rod of iron, during His 'ever-extending' millennium past it's thousand years.

It's all delusion, symbols, and simile.

Just walk up to any person's doorstep and declare you are now reining and ruling and exercising the authority of Christ on earth. Just don't dare them to shoot you, rather than submit to your earthly 'authority'. But hey, it's your life.

But, I have had part in His resurrection spiritually which is what having part in the first resurrection is about.
As I just said.


Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Being raised with Christ from the death of sins and trespasses, is not the first resurrection. It's the necessary part to be in the first resurrection to come.

By tying the first resurrection to the bodily resurrection of Christ, and declaring you now have part in it, you are declaring your own bodily resurrection with Christ.

Once we strip down all the fluff, you see what you are really saying, but reject saying it.

As I said, all your doctrine is delusion, symbol, and simile, that has no footing on solid ground of Scripture. It's all of your own vain imagination.

You are teaching your own bodily resurrection is past, even as Jesus'.


No, the kingdom I'm in now, which is Christ's kingdom, will last forever.
You say you're in it. But your OSAS doctrine rejects adding to your faith the things necessary to remain in it by never falling:

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

And you also say your already resurrected with Christ's bodily resurrection, and are no ruling and exercising national authority with Him over the earth.

But nonetheless, His everlasting kingdom is everlasting and never expires, as opposed to His kingdom of Israel after the flesh, and His millennial kingdom of all nations to come.

He will hand it over to the Father when He comes, as Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:22-24. You clearly have no understanding of these things whatsoever.
He will deliver up His millennium kingdom from earth, when it expires after a thousand years.

The everlasting kingdom of God, has been and always be the Father's and the Son's.

God does not deliver up His own kingdom to Himself.

The church is not the everlasting kingdom of God, no more than the church is God.

You may like to think you are a resurrected god ruling in heaven with power and authority, as well as on earth, but you're not.

This is the same teaching of the serpent promising men to be as gods in heaven and on earth.
 

WPM

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The Millinium rule of CHriwst and His saints over all nations is for a thousand years, after which it shall expire.

You say that is now, and call it is everlasting kingdom, and so you say it will expire.

Or you just change prophecy of Scripture again into something else of your own making.

You are not now ruling with Christ over all nations in His millennium on earth.

Entering into and reign in Christ on earth over our own lives, is not His millennium rule over all nations.

Christ and His people never stop reigning. That only occurs in your "BIG devil and small god" theology.
 

WPM

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This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They,

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Shall rule Them with Christ.

Premils make much of the phrases “rule all nations with a rod of iron” and “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” and build an elaborate paradigm on the wording. They interpret them to mean ‘a 1,000 years Messianic rule over the subjugated nations of the world from natural Jerusalem on a still sin-cursed earth’. A close look at the passages in view reveals that there is no such detail in the sacred text. Such a scheme is not mentioned anywhere in these verses. That alone is grounds to question it. They argue this as if the wicked somehow survive the coming of Christ. This is quite strange as the detailed account in Revelation 2, 12 and 19 actually suggest the opposite to what they infer. Rather than showing the wicked nations inheriting the new earth these reading in fact collectively show their complete destruction at Christ’s return.

The key word here, and often misunderstood, is the word “rule.” Premil imports a lot into this word in this passage, as if the text is describing the commencement of some golden-age-reign of Christ and the saints after the second coming – that will see them impose righteous rule upon numerous surviving nations that dodge the wrath of God at His return. However, this word poimaino simply means to shepherd, to supervise or govern. The same shepherd that tends to His sheep also protects the sheep and separates the sheep from the goats – as in the New Testament depictions.

You are missing the crucial point. The word poimaino shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

Why do you ignore the crucial words suntribo (to break to shivers) in Revelation 2:25-27 and patasso (to smite) in Revelation 19:15?

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

Yes, the same battle described at the end of Rev 20. These are parallel passages, they reveal recaps.
 

Always Believing

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Christ and His people never stop reigning. That only occurs in your "BIG devil and small god" theology.
The only Ones reiging in heaven are Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All others are wanna-be gods in their own minds.

I'll be posting a thread about how you amil theology is simple the serpent's promise in the garden.

The resurrection is past and reigning in heaven, is for them that would be as gods in their own right.
 

Always Believing

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Premils make much of the phrases “rule all nations with a rod of iron” and “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” and build an elaborate paradigm on the wording. They interpret them to mean ‘a 1,000 years Messianic rule over the subjugated nations of the world from natural Jerusalem
True. Exactly what Scripture says. The only time you teach the truth of Scripture, is to mock it.

on a still sin-cursed earth’.
But seven times brighter, with no wars, nor lawbreakers free to roam. And many more saved Christians on earth than unbelievers.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The Lord still coming to save is despised by you. You prefer a christ making fire come down to destroy his enemies in your gleeful sight.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.



A close look at the passages
You can look squinty eyed as the Bible all you want. your false prophecy of amils and gospel of OSAS still isn't there.


in view reveals that there is no such detail in the sacred text.
Lip service. The Scriptures are as sacred to you, as to Catholics with their own sacred tradtions.
Rather than showing the wicked nations inheriting the new earth
The only nations inheriting the earth is today, during your so-called millennium of a god that is ruling them.

You prophecy the ongoing millennium of the god of this world. And the nations he rules are exactly as they are today.

these reading in fact collectively show their complete destruction at Christ’s return.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Not Them remaining alive on earth.

Premil imports a lot into this word in this passage, as if the text is describing the commencement of some golden-age-reign of Christ and the saints after the second coming – that will see them impose righteous rule upon numerous surviving nations that dodge the wrath of God at His return. However, this word poimaino simply means to shepherd, to supervise or govern. The same shepherd that tends to His sheep also protects the sheep and separates the sheep from the goats – as in the New Testament depictions.

You are missing the crucial point. The word poimaino shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

Why do you ignore the crucial words suntribo (to break to shivers) in Revelation 2:25-27 and patasso (to smite) in Revelation 19:15?

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

Yes, the same battle described at the end of Rev 20. These are parallel passages, they reveal recaps.
Old hat copy and paste.
 

WPM

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True. Exactly what Scripture says. The only time you teach the truth of Scripture, is to mock it.


But seven times brighter, with no wars, nor lawbreakers free to roam. And many more saved Christians on earth than unbelievers.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The Lord still coming to save is despised by you. You prefer a christ making fire come down to destroy his enemies in your gleeful sight.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.




You can look squinty eyed as the Bible all you want. your false prophecy of amils and gospel of OSAS still isn't there.



Lip service. The Scriptures are as sacred to you, as to Catholics with their own sacred tradtions.

The only nations inheriting the earth is today, during your so-called millennium of a god that is ruling them.

You prophecy the ongoing millennium of the god of this world. And the nations he rules are exactly as they are today.



And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Not Them remaining alive on earth.


Old hat copy and paste.

I refer you back to my last post. You obviously have no rebuttal of it. That is why you avoid every argument. Name-calling and ad hominem are your default. This is Phase 2 of the Premil journey of capitulation. Phase 3 is run.
 

WPM

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The only Ones reiging in heaven are Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All others are wanna-be gods in their own minds.

I'll be posting a thread about how you amil theology is simple the serpent's promise in the garden.

The resurrection is past and reigning in heaven, is for them that would be as gods in their own right.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

He was given us His power. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

But how possibly can we exercise God’s authority when it is supreme? Surely that is ludicrous!

Jesus said in Mark 13:34: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

This authority that Jesus was speaking about has been left for you and me that love Him. We are His servants and we have been given His authority. It is delegated power and authority. This is incredible!

This word interpreted “authority” here is the exact same word that is used to describe God’s authority and Christ authority in the New Testament. Again, like we learned last week, this is the Greek word exousia (ex-oo-see’-ah) which means right, privilege and authority.

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

While we are physically located on earth as Christians, we are spiritually located in heavenly places with Christ. Our authority could not be greater or higher.

· It is divine authority.
· It is heavenly authority.
· It is supernatural authority.
· It is spiritual authority.

But authority means nothing unless you use it. It must be enforced.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

Jesus said in Luke 10:18-19: Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luke 9:1 records: "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.
 

Waiting on him

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This authority that Jesus was speaking about has been left for you and me that love Him. We are His servants and we have been given His authority. It is delegated power and authority. This is incredible!
If this were the case people would see it, but you have no power or authority, other than what you claim which is a whole lot of nonsense.