The folly of Preterism

[ScottA]

Who do you think you are - God?

I will answer you with a question:

If the Holy Spirit speaks through those whom God sends, is it God speaking or the person? And if so, is such a thing biblical, or not biblical?

 

[Waiting on him]

Since Christ has already come in the flesh, we look for Him to return also in flesh, since that is what the Scripture tells us. Since Scripture is clear that Christ shall return in the flesh, it is folly to argue that He already returned or that He returns again and again and again!

Apparently you are unable to grasp what I’ve witnessed.

Some here have, and that’s ok.

 

[rwb]

The "like manner" mentioned in Acts 1:11 -- is it your idea that it means in the manner of the flesh, or of the Spirit? Obviously you believe it to mean in the manner of the flesh, but that is incorrect. He came according to the flesh, but was raised up according to the spirit of God, saying, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit." Before which He gave His body to the church, saying, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him" and "take, eat, this is My body."

As for Christ living within man--why do you say "physically?" "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." --If these things that are written are "delusional folly" to you--you are in grave danger! Thus, my warning.

Still, you mock the Spirit, then seem to insist upon it. This is your delusion--not mine.

How could Christ's disciples have seen Him going up toward heaven if He was not of flesh? I know how you insist "see" in this verse below from Matthew is not with physical sight, but rather with the mind or understanding. The problem for you is that you cannot explain how the first century disciples with physical sight watched as Christ ascended in the flesh up into heaven. Since it is ridiculous to argue Christ was not physically seen by His disciples, it is equally ridiculous to argue He will not be physically seen coming again in the clouds, just as the two men in white apparel said He would.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Scripture is clear that it is the Spirit sent from Christ that is living within man. Christ is God in mortal, physical flesh. He was put to death in the flesh, and quickened (made alive) by the Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 16:7 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The human spirit given by God to every human born of Adam or of the earth, that was in Christ spiritually ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He physically died. His body went for three days into the tomb, but rather than seeing decay as is the natural process for human flesh, He resurrected physically.

Christ was both fully human and fully God. He submitted His life into the hands of the Father, and willingly gave His life to make atonement for sin. Being fully human, supernaturally born of the Spirit does not mean that Christ was not a natural man, destined to die because of sin. The natural spirit in every living creature is given them by God, and in death the spirit returns to God. Christ, like every human being supernaturally born of the Spirit in this age, in death spiritually returns to the Father in heaven alive through His eternal Spirit in them. Without the life giving Spirit in humans, the spirit given by God returns to Him without life when the physical body dies.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Christ willingly gave His life for the life of the world. John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:51 (KJV) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:56-58 (KJV) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 6:61-63 (KJV) When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[ScottA]

How could Christ's disciples have seen Him going up toward heaven if He was not of flesh? I know how you insist "see" in this verse below from Matthew is not with physical sight, but rather with the mind or understanding. The problem for you is that you cannot explain how the first century disciples with physical sight watched as Christ ascended in the flesh up into heaven. Since it is ridiculous to argue Christ was not physically seen by His disciples, it is equally ridiculous to argue He will not be physically seen coming again in the clouds, just as the two men in white apparel said He would.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Scripture is clear that it is the Spirit sent from Christ that is living within man. Christ is God in mortal, physical flesh. He was put to death in the flesh, and quickened (made alive) by the Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 16:7 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The human spirit given by God to every human born of Adam or of the earth, that was in Christ spiritually ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He physically died. His body went for three days into the tomb, but rather than seeing decay as is the natural process for human flesh, He resurrected physically.

Christ was both fully human and fully God. He submitted His life into the hands of the Father, and willingly gave His life to make atonement for sin. Being fully human, supernaturally born of the Spirit does not mean that Christ was not a natural man, destined to die because of sin. The natural spirit in every living creature is given them by God, and in death the spirit returns to God. Christ, like every human being supernaturally born of the Spirit in this age, in death spiritually returns to the Father in heaven alive through His eternal Spirit in them. Without the life giving Spirit in humans, the spirit given by God returns to Him without life when the physical body dies.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Christ willingly gave His life for the life of the world. John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:51 (KJV) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:56-58 (KJV) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 6:61-63 (KJV) When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The issue here...is not what appears, but rather by what we should come to learn is not just spiritual in part, but is [all] spiritual.

Just ask yourself...is not all things in God, and therefore spirit? Another way to look at it is rather in the way it is clearly presented by "image" since the beginning. Thus, indeed it is easy to confuse what God is capable of creating to appear as it own physical reality--but we can't actually separate any of this from God who is spirit and by His power has created. After all matter is even scientifically actually light and energy. The point being, what we are just learning is not a case against the reality of God and all His creation being of Him and therefore spirit, but for it. God is reality--all reality...and He is spirit.

So...we can dig in and square off with our own would-be reality and demand our own context to proof what we believe by our own understanding as the world seems to be level ground beneath our feet when in reality is spinning through space in a created would-be heaven--but that would simply be us gripping tighter to the blinders that were only to be imposed upon us for a short while.

But that is not all that has been foretold. It has also been foretold that the mystery of God is to be finished, which time is now. Meaning, we have a choice of going to our graves as the Pharisees who held on to all they only thought to be true...or we can make room for all rather than just part of what is written.

 

[rwb]

The issue here...is not what appears, but rather by what we should come to learn is not just spiritual in part, but is [all] spiritual.

Just ask yourself...is not all things in God, and therefore spirit? Another way to look at it is rather in the way it is clearly presented by "image" since the beginning. Thus, indeed it is easy to confuse what God is capable of creating to appear as it own physical reality--but we can't actually separate any of this from God who is spirit and by His power has created. After all matter is even scientifically actually light and energy. The point being, what we are just learning is not a case against the reality of God and all His creation being of Him and therefore spirit, but for it. God is reality--all reality...and He is spirit.

So...we can dig in and square off with our own would-be reality and demand our own context to proof what we believe by our own understanding as the world seems to be level ground beneath our feet when in reality is spinning through space in a created would-be heaven--but that would simply be us gripping tighter to the blinders that were only to be imposed upon us for a short while.

But that is not all that has been foretold. It has also been foretold that the mystery of God is to be finished, which time is now. Meaning, we have a choice of going to our graves as the Pharisees who held on to all they only thought to be true...or we can make room for all rather than just part of what is written.

This is more word salad of non-answer! This reply is as clear as mud! Why do you never address rebuttals clearly instead of going off into this esoteric non-answerable babble. Your explanations for that which is spiritual is so far out there you truly remind me of someone under the influence of mind altering substances.

 

[WPM]

Apparently you are unable to grasp what I’ve witnessed.

Some here have, and that’s ok.

Your posts are as clear as mud.

 

[WPM]

This is more word salad of non-answer! This reply is as clear as mud! Why do you never address rebuttals clearly instead of going off into this esoteric non-answerable babble. Your explanations for that which is spiritual is so far out there you truly remind me of someone under the influence of mind altering substances.

Bro, i just said the same to Waiting on him, then I read your post. LOL. This esoteric cryptic language must go with being a Full Preterist.

 

[rwb]

Your posts are as clear as mud.

Aint' that the truth! Geez, it's like trying to communicate with folks that do not comprehend the English language.

 

[rwb]

Bro, i just said the same to Waiting on him, then I read your post. LOL. This esoteric cryptic language must go with being a Full Preterist.

I saw that! Probably just a matter of great minds thinking alike LOL. Just kidding folks!

 

[WPM]

I saw that! Probably just a matter of great minds thinking alike LOL. Just kidding folks!

I agree bro. Honestly!

 

[ScottA]

This is more word salad of non-answer! This reply is as clear as mud! Why do you never address rebuttals clearly instead of going off into this esoteric non-answerable babble. Your explanations for that which is spiritual is so far out there you truly remind me of someone under the influence of mind altering substances.

The reason I answer in the way that I do...is because the answers are above the basinet level.

Or will you throw the "easy enough for a child to understand" defense back at me...in the face of obvious "but when I became a man, I put away childish things" and the "maturity" to "press on" called for in being "lead unto all truth?"

Did you think this is all there is? It's not.

John 16:12​

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.​

​

John 16:13​

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.​

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The fruit that now is comes under "My strength is made perfect in weakness"...and the meek do not parade.

Even so, these are just a part of what was to be and now is. The gambit also includes everything for "false preachers" and "strong delusion" to being "lead unto all truth" by the Holy Spirit and the "finish" of the "mystery of God" before "the sounding of the seventh angel."

This is the "as a thief" and "as the days of Noah" reality of Jesus' return "coming at an hour you do not expect."

I'm not sure i understand. to me "My Strength is made perfect in weakness."
Is active.
an exchange taking place.
His Love, Mercy, Patience, long-suffering and Forgiveness being His Strength...which is made perfect (perfected)upon and on weakness. is this loving more than those who do you good? Or Mercy, Patience, long-suffering, and forgiveness poured out on (weakness) deemed "unworthy" or "undeserving"... freely given. Love is the bond of perfection. Is it fruit? Is it Christ come in the flesh?

One of my favorite passages 2 Corinthians 13.
If i understand correctly they are blaming them for being "weak" and "reprobates"
where Paul says, "I pray you do no evil but do good, even though we be as reprobates."
To me this is in reference to "be you perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect". The perfection there being doing well not only to those you see as worthy, but to go further upon those you view as "weak" and "reprobate'.
Isn't that what Paul is provoking them to do? to Love. who?
Which makes, "I pray you will know we are (not)reprobates" significant.
wouldn't their (the accusers) "knowing they (the accused) are not as those who fail" be when their (the accusers)love is fulfilled on those they deemed as "reprobate" and “weak”? it would be their love upon Paul although they thought he was reprobate and didn't love them, their choosing to do what is right that proved that answered prayer "I pray you see, we are not as those who fail"... when His (The Fathers) love is perfected in weakness.
He says, "I will be weak." "That you be made strong. This I wish even, your perfection. "
Is this not "fruit"?
Is this not "provoking to love"?
would this be Christ's return?
I wonder how joyful Paul was, how profitable in all things he felt, how hopeful and comforted when ...He witnessed Christ formed in them?

 

[WPM]

The reason I answer in the way that I do...is because the answers are above the basinet level.

Or will you throw the "easy enough for a child to understand" defense back at me...in the face of obvious "but when I became a man, I put away childish things" and the "maturity" to "press on" called for in being "lead unto all truth?"

Did you think this is all there is? It's not.

John 16:12​

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.​

​

John 16:13​

However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.​

You are so full of pride. Truth is for the simple. A child can grasp God's truth.

 

[ScottA]

You are so full of pride. Truth is for the simple. A child can grasp God's truth.

Does this mean then that you would like to pass on "knowledge shall increase?" Which would you prefer?

Oh, and "Christ in me" doesn't like being accused of pride.

 

[jeffweeder]

I will answer you with a question:

If the Holy Spirit speaks through those whom God sends, is it God speaking or the person? And if so, is such a thing biblical, or not biblical?

Do you believe that every time you open your mouth God is speaking through you?

Do not be so deceived if you do.

The only way I can be sure is to post as much scripture as possible on any given subject with very little of my own dialogue, which I hope will come under the microscope.

When Jesus comes a second time to receive us to himself, we shall be glorified like he himself is bodily resurrected and glorified.
This hasnt happened yet has it folks?

 

[WPM]

Do you believe that every time you open your mouth God is speaking through you?

Do not be so deceived if you do.

The only way I can be sure is to post as much scripture as possible on any given subject with very little of my own dialogue, which I hope will come under the microscope.

When Jesus comes a second time to receive us to himself, we shall be glorified like he himself is bodily resurrected and glorified.
This hasnt happened yet has it folks?

This is what we are dealing with.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Oh, and "Christ in me" doesn't like being accused of pride.

I have to consider how “Christ in me” would react to being accused of pride. It amazes me how while being accused of the most hideous things, he kept his mouth shut.


2 Corinthians 13:3 Since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When Jesus comes a second time to receive us to himself, we shall be glorified like he himself is bodily resurrected and glorified.

The Second time without sin unto salvation.

When He comes he will receive us to himself.

We shall be glorified like he himself is bodily resurrected AND glorified.

Sounds prophetic…

This hasnt happened yet has it folks?

I haven’t seen or witnessed it yet.
But I still hope….

 

[ScottA]

I'm not sure i understand. to me "My Strength is made perfect in weakness."
Is active.
an exchange taking place.
His Love, Mercy, Patience, long-suffering and Forgiveness being His Strength...which is made perfect (perfected)upon and on weakness. is this loving more than those who do you good? Or Mercy, Patience, long-suffering, and forgiveness poured out on (weakness) deemed "unworthy" or "undeserving"... freely given. Love is the bond of perfection. Is it fruit? Is it Christ come in the flesh?

One of my favorite passages 2 Corinthians 13.
If i understand correctly they are blaming them for being "weak" and "reprobates"
where Paul says, "I pray you do no evil but do good, even though we be as reprobates."
To me this is in reference to "be you perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect". The perfection there being doing well not only to those you see as worthy, but to go further upon those you view as "weak" and "reprobate'.
Isn't that what Paul is provoking them to do? to Love. who?
Which makes, "I pray you will know we are (not)reprobates" significant.
wouldn't their (the accusers) "knowing they (the accused) are not as those who fail" be when their (the accusers)love is fulfilled on those they deemed as "reprobate" and “weak”? it would be their love upon Paul although they thought he was reprobate and didn't love them, their choosing to do what is right that proved that answered prayer "I pray you see, we are not as those who fail"... when His (The Fathers) love is perfected in weakness.
He says, "I will be weak." "That you be made strong. This I wish even, your perfection. "
Is this not "fruit"?
Is this not "provoking to love"?
would this be Christ's return?
I wonder how joyful Paul was, how profitable in all things he felt, how hopeful and comforted when ...He witnessed Christ formed in them?

Indeed, all of these are included in the details on the ground and in the hearts of those involved. But the greater meaning of "My strength is made perfect in weakness" is the full power and glory of God that is made manifest in the world before those who do not see or hear it, some not even until it passes among them, to whom comes "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Thus, it is also written, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation."

But you, you have seen and heard of it. Praise be to God!

 

[ScottA]

Do you believe that every time you open your mouth God is speaking through you?

Do not be so deceived if you do.

The only way I can be sure is to post as much scripture as possible on any given subject with very little of my own dialogue, which I hope will come under the microscope.

When Jesus comes a second time to receive us to himself, we shall be glorified like he himself is bodily resurrected and glorified.
This hasnt happened yet has it folks?

Why do you not therefore believe what is written, saying "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me?" Have you seen me pass back through the gulf which none can past back through?

If you speak for yourself, speak for yourself. But if I speak for God who sent me and puts the words in my mouth--I ask again, Is such a thing not biblical?