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Ferris Bueller

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Straw man
Let me refer you to this post:
God made the Sabbath for us. Not us for the Sabbath. God didn't say, I created the Sabbath for the Jews only!

Because there were no Jews in the beginning. There were just God's people. People created in the image and likeness of God.

The Sabbath was never abolished. Nor were the other 9 commands.

Why would they be?

Those 10 in total represent love,morality, honor, and respect, for God and one another.

Imagine the person who thinks they are in Christ and Christ is alive in them insisting honoring their mother and father no longer applies. Murdering someone no longer is prohibited. Lying is no longer forbidden. Keeping the Sabbath holy, that which God created for us, no longer applies.

I've known people who claim they're in Christ and Christ is alive in them make those kind of arguments against the ten commands Jesus told us to keep if we love him.

And you know what?

Those people were not Christian no matter how much they imagined they were.

They were petty, mean, selfish, arrogant, insulting, and prejudiced.
I think it is because their belief system is one that insists love,morality, honor, and respect, for God and one another no longer applies.

The worst ones, two that I worked with, insisted the ten commands were only for the Jews.
Flabbergasting. Love,morality, honor, and respect, for God and one another are Jewish values not Christian.
In truth they acted like that too.

I learned from those encounters over the years that those who think to correct God and his word are devils.

Not wolves disguised as sheep but are devils.

There's no debating devil's. In the end they deserve what they get by God's reckoning.
Still think my argument is a Wizard of Oz straw man?
I've been talking to Messianic believers for some years now. I'm familiar with many of their arguments. I know you may not subscribe to all of them, but you have to understand that in general, Messianics regard the observances as proof of salvation. Just as many of us regard 'do not covet' and 'do not steal', etc. as evidence and proof of salvation.

Oh, and by the way. I've learned tons of valuable truth from Messianic believers. Truths I wish many non-observant Protestants could know.
 

Ferris Bueller

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And it does not matter when and where you spend time with God.
...unless God says it does.
It did matter in the covenant that held you at bay at a distance from God. But now that we have been brought near to God, closer than the law allowed, through the new way of faith in Christ a single designated day for worship and attention to God is irrelevant. I mean, why do I need a law about when and how I can approach God when I'm already brought near to God, all the time, and much closer than the law allowed, through the new way of faith in God?
 

BarneyFife

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Let me refer you to this post:

Still think my argument is a Wizard of Oz straw man?
I've been talking to Messianic believers for some years now. I'm familiar with many of their arguments. I know you may not subscribe to all of them, but you have to understand that in general, Messianics regard the observances as proof of salvation. Just as many of us regard 'do not covet' and 'do not steal', etc. as evidence and proof of salvation.

Oh, and by the way. I've learned tons of valuable truth from Messianic believers. Truths I wish many non-observant Protestants could know.
I don't know much about the Messianic faith. I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. You're never gonna see any of that kind of junk coming from an official Adventist source. The large majority of Christian Sabbath-keepers in the world are Adventists. To me it's a straw man. I understand your concerns but I can't account for every single idiot who goes to church on Saturday. Sorry. And yes, all that condemnatory stuff @Oceanprayers said is just idiocy. An apology from me would be meaningless, I think. I would never call you a devil or tell you that you deserve some kind of punishment that I can't even quantify.
 

Enoch111

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The Sabbath is not just another day of the week. It’s a day set apart from the usual toil and cares, a day for reflection on God’s goodness.
The same thing can be said for the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- "the morrow after the sabbath" -- when Christ arose from the dead. Indeed the apostles and apostolic churches made this the day for Christian worship and rest. And "the day of the sun" is far more benign than "the day of Saturn". The fact that UNBELIEVING JEWS cling to the seventh day Sabbath should be reason enough for Christians to maintain the first day of the week as the Lord's Day.
 

Ferris Bueller

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That's what is reasonable and logical.
The Bible is not a logic textbook. His ways are not our ways.
But you said this...
And since man is very susceptible to forgetting God and occupying himself with selfish pursuits, God established in Eden a means for man to have a systematic means of spending quality time with Him. This is as reasonable and logical as can be. He does not leave the matter to us to manage or judge for ourselves.
That's confusing.
 

BarneyFife

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It did matter in the covenant that held you at bay at a distance from God. But now that we have been brought near to God, closer than the law allowed, through the new way of faith in Christ a single designated day for worship and attention to God is irrelevant. I mean, why do I need a law about when and how I can approach God when I'm already brought near to God, all the time, and much closer than the law allowed, through the new way of faith in God?
Do you really think that believers in the Old Testament were redeemed differently than we are?
Oh, so you are one of them. So, my argument wasn't a strawman after all?
Maybe I misunderstood, but God says that the Sabbath is the sign between Himself and His people, that He is the Lorf that sanctifies them. You can take that any way you want, I guess.
 

BarneyFife

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Indeed the apostles and apostolic churches made this the day for Christian worship and rest.
Indeed they did no such thing because they would never overreach their authority and make the commandments of God of none effect with a man-made tradition.
And "the day of the sun" is far more benign than "the day of Saturn".
The Sabbath of the Lord was from the first week of earth's history. I don't think "the day of Saturn" goes back quite that far. Dozens of languages the world over use some form of the word "Sabbath" for the day we call "Saturday."
The fact that UNBELIEVING JEWS cling to the seventh day Sabbath should be reason enough for Christians to maintain the first day of the week as the Lord's Day.
Yeah, if all Christians were Anti-Semites that would surely be reason enough.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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The "appointed times" have nothing to do with the 7th day Sabbath.
Nothing to do with the appointed times?

1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them, These are My appointed feasts, the feasts of the LORD that you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.3For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, a day of sacred assembly. You must not do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

4These are the LORD’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5The Passover to the LORD begins at twilight on the fourteentha day of the first month. 6On the fifteenth day of the same month begins the Feast of Unleavened Breadb to the LORD. For seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you are to hold a sacred assembly; you are not to do any regular work. 8For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day there shall be a sacred assembly; you must not do any regular work.’ ”9And the LORD said to Moses, 10“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘When you enter the land that I am giving you and you reap its harvest, you are to bring to the priest a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest. 11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD so that it may be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.12On the day you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a year-old lamb without blemish as a burnt offering to the LORD, 13along with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flourc mixed with oil—an offering made by fire to the LORD, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter hin of wine.d14You must not eat any bread or roasted or new grain until the very day you have brought this offering to your God. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come, wherever you live.Acts 2:1–13)

[...]

44So Moses announced to the Israelites the appointed feasts of the LORD.

Leviticus 23:1-44

The Sabbath marks off a calendar week--not the time of Christ's appearing. If you wanted to assign a day of the week to Christ's appearing, you'd be better off going with Thursday.
I really thought you understood that the argument is the 'day' of Christ's appearance is a period of time, a time in which the revelation of salvation in Christ is revealed:

7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” Hebrews 4:7

1As God’s fellow workers,a then, we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For He says:
“In the time of favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”
b
Behold, now is the time of favor; now is the day of salvation!
2 Corinthians 6:1-2
The time of Christ's appearing is the 'day' of salvation. And let no one be found to have fallen short of entering into it!

That is, if you agree with Bishop Ussher's chronology.
I don't know anything about that.
I just know I don't like his music. Not my style.
 

BarneyFife

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But you said this...

That's confusing.
That's a clever trick, but I didn't say that reason and logic had no place in Biblical interpretation whatsoever (Isaiah 1:18). I said that the Bible wasn't a logic textbook. I was also trying to suggest that we shouldn't use logic to twist that which God has already made plain which, by-and-large, is the shaky-legged foundation that the entire anti-Sabbath movement stands on. The most strenuous mental gymnastics must always be employed to make a good showing of trying to upset the Law of God. :)
 
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BarneyFife

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Nothing to do with the appointed times?

1Then the LORD said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them, These are My appointed feasts, the feasts of the LORD that you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.3For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, a day of sacred assembly. You must not do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

4These are the LORD’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5The Passover to the LORD begins at twilight on the fourteentha day of the first month. 6On the fifteenth day of the same month begins the Feast of Unleavened Breadb to the LORD. For seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you are to hold a sacred assembly; you are not to do any regular work. 8For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day there shall be a sacred assembly; you must not do any regular work.’ ”9And the LORD said to Moses, 10“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘When you enter the land that I am giving you and you reap its harvest, you are to bring to the priest a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest. 11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD so that it may be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.12On the day you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a year-old lamb without blemish as a burnt offering to the LORD, 13along with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flourc mixed with oil—an offering made by fire to the LORD, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter hin of wine.d14You must not eat any bread or roasted or new grain until the very day you have brought this offering to your God. This is to be a permanent statute for the generations to come, wherever you live.Acts 2:1–13)

[...]

44So Moses announced to the Israelites the appointed feasts of the LORD.

Leviticus 23:1-44


I really thought you understood that the argument is the 'day' of Christ's appearance is a period of time, a time in which the revelation of salvation in Christ is revealed:

7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” Hebrews 4:7

1As God’s fellow workers,a then, we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For He says:
“In the time of favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”
b
Behold, now is the time of favor; now is the day of salvation!
2 Corinthians 6:1-2
The time of Christ's appearing is the 'day' of salvation. And let no one be found to have fallen short of entering into it!


I don't know anything about that.
I just know I don't like his music. Not my style.
None of this incidental stuff unseats the 7th day Sabbath as one of the ten, timeless commandments of God to mankind. Unless you want it to badly enough. :)
 
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BarneyFife

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@Ferris Bueller

I wonder why 7th-day Sabbath is noticeably separated from and prominently featured above the yearly feasts in the list of appointed feasts/festivals.

Why wouldn't a weekly convocation be mentioned in such a list?

Maybe it's to prove that the 4th commandment doesn't count. :p
 

Ferris Bueller

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I wonder why 7th-day Sabbath is noticeably separated from and prominently featured above the yearly feasts in the list of appointed feasts/festivals.

Why wouldn't a weekly convocation be mentioned in such a list?

Maybe it's to prove that the 4th commandment doesn't count. :p
It is mentioned in and included in the list of appointed times. You said it wasn't included with the appointed times. Well, it is. And the appointed times were laid aside, because they have been forever met/fulfilled/satisfied in the finished work of Christ. That is a profound blow to your argument for the literal sabbath. It's a death blow, in fact. It's not a moral law. It's a ceremonial law. Part of the ceremonial laws that don't have to be literally kept anymore. They can be, they just don't have to be as observant believers insist they must.
 

BarneyFife

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I'm not trying to dissuade you from your convictions.
Maybe it's just me, but I detect a slight shift in your tone:
It is mentioned in and included in the list of appointed times. You said it wasn't included with the appointed times. Well, it is. And the appointed times were laid aside, because they have been forever met/fulfilled/satisfied in the finished work of Christ. That is a profound blow to your argument for the literal sabbath. It's a death blow, in fact. It's not a moral law. It's a ceremonial law. Part of the ceremonial laws that don't have to be literally kept anymore. They can be, they just don't have to be as observant believers insist they must.
There is no category of "observant" believers or commandments. Believers are free to obey the 4th commandment or not. I make no demand such as "they have to obey it."

I do testify that it is every bit a commandment as the other 9 and I reject outright the notion that it has been rescinded or demoted. I can say this just as many times as you can say "It's not a moral law. It's a ceremonial law."

The "death blow," as you call it, is really nothing more than a man-made re-categorization of Divine Law based on a semantical amalgamation of general and specific terms starting with the word "appointed." A search for the word "appointed times" in the Bible yielded virtually no references to the Sabbath (I wasn't able to do an exhaustive search) and appeared to me to be a rabbit hole. But then "feasts" and "festivals" were qualified and introduced. Discussion is one thing; I don't care to do Bible study as a game of strategy.

I do not have an "argument for the literal sabbath." There is no figurative Sabbath. The law of God was etched on tablets of stone with the finger of God. It's a simple, default verity. Before roughly 50 years ago, practically no one taught otherwise.

The doctrine has only proliferated in modern/post-modern times. What once was an anomaly has turned into an epidemic. It seems to have taken root especially in the western world.

When it has been taught in third-world countries, it is seen as a bizarre neo-philosophy. Many times when remote tribes are found with Bibles they are already keeping the 7th-day Sabbath. I can't remember exactly when or where I learned this, but I did--"grain of salt" stuff.

The other two times God wrote with His own finger, there was no question about the gravity or purpose of His words.

Isaiah 40:8 KJV: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Numbers 23:19 KJV: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

___________________:)_____________________
 
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BarneyFife

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The mistake you're making is deciding the literal sabbath observance is, practically speaking, just like not murdering someone, or lying about someone, or coveting your neighbor's hot wife and collection of SUV's.
I didn't decide anything. I just discovered that God had already decided it for me.
Just because the literal sabbath observance is couched in a collection of moral laws doesn't make it one.
Yeah, it really does. :)
 

Brakelite

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Agreed. This fact really should be conceded by any honest and scholarly Sabbath-keeper. Just my opinion.


Rest. Gr. sabbatismos, “a resting [from previous activity],” “a cessation [from
previous activity],” later “a Sabbathkeeping,” from the verb sabbatizos̄ , “to rest,” “to
cease,” “to keep Sabbath.” Sabbatismos appears elsewhere neither in the Bible nor in
ancient literature until the 2d and 3d centuries, with the possible exception of a single
occurrence in Plutarch Moralia 166A. Consequently, some have concluded that the writer of
Hebrews coined the word as he wrote this passage (see Moulton and Milligan,
Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament).
Sabbatismos and sabbatizō are Greek renderings of the Hebrew noun shabbath and
its related verb shabath, respectively, and the meaning of the latter may be expected to
cast light on the meaning of the former. Shabbath occurs 101 times in the OT, where it
generally means “Sabbath,”—the seventh day of the week—or “week,” a period of seven
days marked off by successive Sabbaths. It is also used of the sabbatical year (Lev. 25:6;
26:34, 43; 2 Chron. 36:21). The verb shabath occurs 70 times, 7 times with reference to
the Sabbath rest and 63 times with reference to other kinds of rest. For instances of the
latter usage see Gen. 8:22; Joshua 5:12; Neh. 6:3; Lam. 5:14; Isa. 14:4; 24:8; 33:8. The
root meaning of the verb shabath is “to cease,” “to rest.” The word sometimes denotes
the weekly Sabbath rest. But the noun shabbath, derived from shabath, commonly
denotes the weekly Sabbath rest, and also the space of time marked off by successive
Sabbaths, the week (Lev. 23:15), and the sabbatical years (ch. 26:35; etc.). It may be
noted also that shabbathon, which is simply shabbath with the ending –on, is used of the
Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:31; 23:32), of the sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4, 5), of the Feast
of Trumpets (Lev. 23:24), and of the first and last days of the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev.
23:39)—as well as of the seventh-day Sabbath.
Sabbatizō is used seven times in the LXX, once of the literal seventh-day Sabbath
(Ex. 16:30), once of other sabbaths (Lev. 23:32), and five times of the land’s resting in
the sabbatical year (Lev. 26:34, 35; 2 Chron. 36:21). In the LXX of Ex. 16:30; Lev.
23:32; 26:34, 35 sabbatizō is from the Hebrew shabath. Accordingly, the fundamental
idea expressed by sabbatizo in the LXX is that of resting or ceasing from labor or other
activity. Hence usage of the related Greek and Hebrew words implies that the noun

sabbatismos may denote either the literal Sabbath “rest” or simply “rest” or “cessation”
in a more general sense. Thus, a linguistic study of the word sabbatismos in Heb. 4:9
leaves it uncertain whether the weekly Sabbath “rest” is here referred to, or simply “rest”
or “cessation” in a general sense. Context alone can decide the matter.

The writer of Hebrews appears to use katapusis and sabbatismos more or less
synonymously:

1. Because Joshua could not lead Israel into spiritual “rest” (katapausis, v. 8), a
sabbatismos (v. 9) remains for Christians. Consistency seems to require that what
remains be the same as what was there to begin with. Because Joshua did not lead literal
Israel into spiritual “rest” would be no reason for the Christian to observe the Sabbath.
2. From vs. 1, 6 it is clear that what remains for the people of God in NT times is a
katapausis; in v. 9 it is said that a sabbatismos remains. To declare that what remains for
“the people of God” is the weekly Sabbath, is to declare that what Joshua failed to lead
Israel into was the weekly Sabbath.
3. The fact that in the LXX, the Bible of the NT church, katapauō (Gen. 2:2, 3); Ex.
20:11) and sabbatizō (Ex. 16:30; Lev. 23:32) are used interchangeably to denote the
seventh-day Sabbath, would tend to preclude the suggestion that the writer of Hebrews
intended to make a distinction between the noun forms of these words in Heb. 3; 4.
It may be noted, further, that the Jews of Paul’s time, whether Christian or non-
Christian, were punctilious in their observance of the fourth commandment. Certainly, in
writing to Jews, the author of Hebrews would not consider it necessary to prove to them
that Sabbathkeeping “remaineth.” If the conclusion of the extended argument beginning
with ch. 3:7 is that Sabbathkeeping remains for the people of God, it would seem that the
writer of Hebrews is guilty of a non sequitur, for the conclusion does not follow logically
from the argument. There would have been no point in so labored an effort to persuade
the Jews to do what they were already doing—observing the seventh-day Sabbath.
Furthermore, in apostolic times the seventh-day Sabbath was observed by all Christians,
Jew and Gentile alike, and any argument to prove the validity of the Sabbath in those
early Christian times would have been pointless. Furthermore, it may be observed that the
section of the book of Hebrews consisting of chs. 3 and 4 opens with an invitation to
“consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus” (ch. 3:1), and
closes with an earnest plea to “come boldly” before Him in order to “obtain mercy, and
find grace to help in time of need” (ch. 4:16). What relationship a protracted argument
designed to prove that Sabbath observance remains as an obligation to the Christian
church might have to the declared theme of chs. 3 and 4—the ministry of Christ as our
great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary—is obscure indeed.

The rest here spoken of is the rest of grace. It is the true rest of faith.
We enter into God’s “rest” when we “consider” Jesus (ch. 3:1) and listen to His voice
(chs. 3:7, 15; 4:7), when we exercise faith in Him (ch. 4:2, 3), when we cease from our
own efforts to earn salvation (v. 10), when we “hold fast our profession” (v. 14), and
when we draw near to the throne of grace (v. 16). Those who would enter into this
experience must beware of “an evil heart of unbelief” (ch. 3:12), of hardening their hearts
(chs. 3:8, 15; 4:7). They must strive to enter into God’s “rest” (ch. 4:11).
Those who enter into God’s “rest” will “hold fast” their “profession” (v. 14). They
will “come boldly unto the throne of grace” to “obtain mercy, and find grace to help in
time of need” (v. 16).
And yet the anti Sabbath folk seldom fail to use Hebrews 4 as proof against Sabbath keeping, using Joshua's 'rest' as evidence the literal Sabbath is now defunct.
 
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