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Christ4Me

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I probably used the term a little too loosely. One of the tactics debaters often use is to overwhelm their opponents by posing clusters of questions so voluminous that the opponent hasn't the allotted time to answer them all. I don't really suspect that you would purposely do such a thing, and I can be easily distractable and slow at times, so you probably should just disregard the spam accusations with my apologies.

Okay. I can forgive you because I am slow myself too, but Jesus is carrying me.

You may safely trust me when I say that what I like or dislike has no bearing on my views of the Bible text. When I was initiated into the systematic theology I now hold, I was (eventually) very open to suggestion, and seeking to find objective truth. I now know that total objectivity is nearly impossible, but the basic framework of that theology has not changed one iota for me. And it is as simple as can be: Christ came into this world to restore the image of God (love) in man, in order to rid the universe of the disease of sin, thus making it secure and joyful.
I have said before that I do not believe in the old covenant as being one that was implemented for a period of earth's history, but actually a historic illustration of the universal principle that sinful man cannot keep the law in his own power. Christ knew that and was giving the rich young ruler a crash course. Nevertheless, the conditions of eternal life have forever been perfect obedience to God's law. If it were not so, Christ need not to have died sinless. This is about as logical as a thing could ever be.

No man except Christ has ever kept the law his whole life. People begin sinning before they even know what sin is. Therefore salvation by works is a plain and simple impossibility. This, however, does not excuse our sin after we are initially forgiven and justified. The new covenant was in existence from the foundation of the earth. God speaks of it distinctively in Deuteronomy 5:29, during the time of Noah and the Levitical priesthood.

(Soteriology is a science that can enrapture the mind indefinitely. I learn new things about it even as I sit and contemplate the Word of God. Even as I'm driving.) When we say things like "live by faith in Jesus Christ for everything," we really have no idea of the depths and heights of that simple truth. We have no idea of how at variance we all are with it. Angels cry out, "Holy, Holy, Holy!!!" before the throne of God in awe of it. One single angel is more interested in the redemption of man than is the entire human race. Sorry, I digress.

I do that too. No worry, brother.

But back to our topic, being dependent upon Jesus for everything doesn't mean accepting His sacrifice for us and trusting in Him to save us in the shallow form that kind of faith takes in us.

I was able to follow you in understanding & agreeing with your position until here. Since it is written that the just shall live by faith, then what is more pleasing to God than believing in Him to be our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him? I believe that is why the gospel is simple and the way to follow Him is simple too that little children are free to come to Him for all they can do is trust Him at His word.

Every loaf of bread we eat should be stamped with the cross of Calvary. His sacrifice literally provided that loaf of bread.

You lost me there. Are you talking about communion? Are you believing that Christ's presence is in the bread & the wine as a sacrament?

He says we should be holy, or perfect, even as is our Father in Heaven. Is He just reciting cute things for us to say and take for granted? How much holiness to the Lord is too much? Why shouldn't the unsaved sinner expire at the moment he has his first sinful thought? Well, he should, but because Christ purchased our probation for us on the cross, he doesn't die. Behold the Lamb of that taketh away the sin of the world. (As you can probably tell, I'm actually much more interested in the Person that the Scriptures reveal than the books, chapters, and verses, etc.)

Take this verse for how we can be holy.

1 John 3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Now apply that hope in Him in trusting Him to destroy the works of the devil in our lives and to help us to follow Him daily.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 
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Christ4Me

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Really no need to do that unless the goal is to explain away the simple, plain reading of the text. There's nothing ambiguous about "Nothing can be removed from the law." Right?

I believe the blind spot here is acknowledging why His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath day. Matthew 12:1-7

When you get to the how they were guiltless, then you may see how we are guiltless for profaning the sabbath today.
 
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BarneyFife

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I'm not trying to dissuade you from your convictions. I just want you to understand why there are people like me who do not feel compelled to keep various literal requirements of the law of Moses. Animal sacrifice for sin, which we all understand why we don't have to do that anymore, is how we understand the 'passing away' of other literal requirements of the law.
Hi, FB! Long time no see! :D

I understand that there are many different reasons that people adopt their own set of beliefs. I just don't understand why folks are comfortable joining the Sabbath to what they call "the law of Moses," but not the other nine commandments.
 

BarneyFife

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Hi Barny,

I haven't been online in a while - computer problems. You've already heard my thoughts on the substance of the New Covenant Sabbath being Jesus and His own commandments being written on our hearts, but wasn't part of what was on stone 1 John 3:23-24, so I won't bother to repeat all that. Just wanted to reach out and give you a great big New Year's hug! Love to you.

L
So good to see you back!!! Hugs to you, too! :D:D:D
 
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BarneyFife

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Okay. I can forgive you because I am slow myself too, but Jesus is carrying me.
Thanks :)
Since it is written that the just shall live by faith, then what is more pleasing to God than believing in Him to be our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him? I believe that is why the gospel is simple and the way to follow Him is simple too that little children are free to come to Him for all they can do is trust Him at His word.
I think I can agree with this. There is milk, and then there is meat, though.
You lost me there. Are you talking about communion? Are you believing that Christ's presence is in the bread & the wine as a sacrament?
Absolutely not
I believe the blind spot here is acknowledging why His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath day. Matthew 12:1-7

When you get to the how they were guiltless, then you may see how we are guiltless for profaning the sabbath today.
Yeah, we do kinda seem to be stuck in Matthew 12, don't we?
:)
 

BarneyFife

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That’s absolutely not so. There’s been other covenants besides the two God has had with Israel, (which are called the old and new covenants).

There’s a Noahic covenant, and an Abrahamic covenant for two that preceded the old and New Israeli covenants. The new covenant in effect today took effect with the death of Jesus, as Hebrews clearly states, calling it the last will and Testament of Jesus Christ, that took effect with the death of the testator, like all wills do.

Therefore it’s unarguable that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant, that God said is with the Houses of Israel and Judah, absolutely couldn’t have existed before Jesus died, and especially can’t have existed before the house of Israel existed, and Israel didn’t exist until Abraham had a son named Jacob.
Not all covenants are related to the process of regeneration (what would the postdiluvian rainbow represent?). I've already discussed at length my basic views of the old and new covenants. I'd rather not volley about it if it's all the same to you.
The problem with “systematic theology” is you’re using someone’s proof texting, that can be wrong.
Yeah, pretty much everyone is doing that. There are only so many ways to view basic Christianity. It's not often that someone comes up with something new. But if you've discovered some essential tenet of your faith all on your lonesome, I'd be happy to hear it.

Is there anything wrong with this statement that I used to summarize the systematic theology that I hold?

Christ came into this world to restore the image of God (love) in man, in order to rid the universe of the disease of sin, thus making it secure and joyful.
'
'
'
Much better to use biblical theology from reading the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse
Systematic theology is not intended to take the place of biblical theology. It's a well-established discipline.
and study to show yourself approved, and not studying to show Ellen G. White approved.
I get this a lot (It's SDA so it can't be any good). I think I'm in good company, though.
John 1:46 KJV: And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
I never mentioned her or referred anyone to her, but if you have a problem with Mrs. White, I can recommend an appropriate apologetic website. :)
 

Curtis

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Not all covenants are related to the process of regeneration (what would the postdiluvian rainbow represent?). I've already discussed at length my basic views of the old and new covenants. I'd rather not volley about it if it's all the same to you.
We know what the rainbow covenant is - that God will never destroy the earth with water again. No mystery there.
 

BarneyFife

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We know what the rainbow covenant is - that God will never destroy the earth with water again. No mystery there.
No kidding? I've only been studying the Bible for 32 years. I haven't reached that advanced level of sacerdotal acumen yet.

Honestly. Did you read the part of my post you quoted?
Not all covenants are related to the process of regeneration (what would the postdiluvian rainbow represent?).

Where is the tie-in to R-E-G-E-N-E-R-A-T-I-O-N?
 

Ferris Bueller

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Hi, FB! Long time no see! :D

I understand that there are many different reasons that people adopt their own set of beliefs. I just don't understand why folks are comfortable joining the Sabbath to what they call "the law of Moses," but not the other nine commandments.
The law of Moses is the unified whole of all the commandments and requirements of God, including the Ten. They stand as a unified whole.

Now, in regard to what laws are literally upheld by faith (Romans 3:31) and which one's are not literally upheld by faith, the determining factor is whether or not what that law sought to accomplish has been fulfilled and satisfied once and for all by the finished work of Christ.

For example, the laws concerning animal sacrifice for sin don't have to be literally done anymore because the lawful requirement they sought to fulfill (forgiveness of sin) has been satisfied to God's complete and eternal satisfaction through the sacrifice of Christ. And so the literal law of animal sacrifice for sin isn't needed anymore and can be laid aside. Not destroyed and cast down and broken as the church believes, but upheld by being forever satisfied one time for all time through Christ. So, since there is no further literal action required in regard to that law (no sin guilt remains to be removed) it can be set aside and marked 'fulfilled'. Fulfilled through the work of Christ and applied to us through our faith in that work.

And so it is with the literal Sabbath requirement. What that law sought to do - bring us into the rest that God has provided - has already been accomplished by bringing us into the Rest God has provided for us in Jesus Christ. IOW, I'm already at rest, in Christ. Why do I need to literally keep a law to do what has already been accomplished by my faith in Christ? I don't, of course.
 
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Curtis

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Hi Barny,

I haven't been online in a while - computer problems. You've already heard my thoughts on the substance of the New Covenant Sabbath being Jesus and His own commandments being written on our hearts, but wasn't part of what was on stone 1 John 3:23-24, so I won't bother to repeat all that. Just wanted to reach out and give you a great big New Year's hug! Love to you.

L
Yes you are right. Circumcision was physical in the old covenant, But is spiritual in the new covenant.

And the Sabbath day of rest was a physical day of rest in the old covenant, but in the new covenant our rest is spiritual- Jesus is our rest now 24/7, Matthew 11:28-29.

Scripture says the sabbath day of rest was a shadow of Jesus, who is the substance. The Sabbath’s were foreshadows of the rest we find in Jesus 24 hours a day.
 

Brakelite

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The new covenant was in existence from the foundation of the earth

That’s absolutely not so.

I'd rather not volley about it if it's all the same to you
While not wanting a game of raquet ball, I would like to briefly answer. Revelation tells us that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Thus you are both correct. The new testament couldn't be enacted until Christ's death, not ratified without blood. But scripture clearly informs us that Christ did die at the beginning, and innocent blood was spilt on behalf of sinful man. The covenant promise was made to both Adam and Eve, and Satan was a witness. It's all in the first 3 chapters of Genesis.

And so it is with the literal Sabbath requirement. What that law sought to do - bring us into the rest that God has provided - has already been accomplished by bringing us into the Rest God has provided for us in Jesus Christ. IOW, I'm already at rest, in Christ. Why do I need to literally keep a law to do what has already been accomplished by my faith in Christ? I don't, of course.
The only reason the 4th Commandment was established was because the Sabbath needed to be embedded in progress memories. In the beginning it was not so. The Creator, the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus, blessed, sanctified, and made the 7th day holy. We remind people of this by referencing the law, but it isn't because of the law people need to observe the Sabbath. People need to observe the Sabbath because it's holy. For 6000 years it has remained holy. It's the day that is holy. Regardless of where you are, or who you are. It's not about Israel, Jews, or Christians, it Gentiles. The day is holy, and will always be so because God declared it to be holy. That's it. He hasn't changed that. The Sabbath, the 7th day of the week, is still holy!!
What God reminded Israel is that He wanted them to remember to keep it that way by their behavior during those holy hours. They could not keep it holy by simply resting. You can't honor a day by not doing anything. If that were the case, dead men can keep the Sabbath. The day is holy, and all men under the sun are required to remember to keep it holy. The rest you speak of is real, and that rest enables you to observe the Sabbath the way it ought to be.
we are guiltless for profaning the sabbath today.
So you are saying the Sabbath is still relevant, you admit you do profane God's holy day, I would appreciate you explaining how exactly you are guiltless for deliberately disobeying one of the commandments of God.
 
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Christ4Me

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So you are saying the Sabbath is still relevant, you admit you do profane God's holy day, I would appreciate you explaining how exactly you are guiltless for deliberately disobeying one of the commandments of God.

Same reason why His disciples were not guilty for profaning the sabbath because Jesus was with them.

Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Jesus is in us and with us always as our bodies are the temple of the holy Spirit for why we are guiltless for profaning the sabbath today.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

So by recognizing what Jesus has done with Him in us always, is why we are guiltless for profaning the sabbath for He is able to make us stand
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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In the United States and Canada—albeit on different days for each nation—citizens celebrate an annual holiday known as Thanksgiving Day. On that day, families and friends gather to express thanks for one other and the good things in their lives and, yes, to enjoy a nice meal together.

But did you know that along with that one day of national Thanksgiving, there are 52 other days each year that were created especially for us to give thanks? These other days don’t necessarily involve producing a massive meal and inviting all your relatives to your home, but they are days in which we are to express gratitude. They are the weekly Sabbath days.

Dr. Laura Nash, a school psychologist in New Jersey, spoke with The Christian Science Monitor about these special days, mentioning her journey from non-practicing Catholicism to what she calls the “ethical monotheism” of her husband’s Judaism, the religion to which she converted in the year 2000.

“I like the fact that we have this way of stopping and celebrating, of resting and honoring God,” says Nash. She also refers to Genesis 2:3, noting that God had pronounced the Sabbath to be a good thing. Although Nash’s observance of the Sabbath is not as strict as Orthodox Jews’ or as biblically based as many Sabbath-keeping Christians’, she and her family nevertheless set aside the day as special.


A Weekly Rest
But the Sabbath is not only for Jews or Sabbath-keeping Christians; it is a weekly day in which everyone can participate. In Genesis 2:2, 3, we read about the origin of the Sabbath, a day given long before there were Jews and Gentiles: “And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

Let’s be clear: God wasn’t tired! He didn’t need to take a nap. God rested because He wanted the people He had just created to see an example of how humanity should live. Humans are not intended to ceaselessly labor without a break. We’re not intended to live what Thoreau, in his famous work Walden, called “lives of quiet desperation.”

Instead, after six days of pursuing one’s own interests, there is a day of rest for all, even for working animals. (See Exodus 20:10.) In that day, we are to gain a blessing as well as be a blessing by giving thanks in many different ways.


Sabbath Made for All Humanity
The Sabbath isn’t intended as a day of idleness. God rested on the seventh day in order to spend time with His creation—with us. That is why we attend church on that day, a day of “holy convocation” (Leviticus 23:3) in which we have the privilege of worshiping and learning more about God. The Sabbath is our opportunity to reaffirm that it is God “who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them” (Acts 4:24).

In our free article “Sabbath Observance Honors the Creator,” we read a direct explanation of the Sabbath’s importance: “In Psalm 111:4, we are told that God ‘made his wonderful works to be remembered.’ The reason is that His works remind us of creation, and creation reminds us of the Creator, and the Creator is the only true God. Since He ‘hath made his wonderful works to be remembered,’ it would be only natural that, at the close of the week in which these wonderful works were done, He should institute a memorial by which we would be reminded from week to week of them. Thus, we would never forget who the true God is, and drift into idolatry, or deny Him as the Creator.”

The Sabbath is also a remembrance of God’s saving us by coming to die on the cross for our sins: “Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them” (Ezekiel 20:12). We are sanctified not on our own merits, but rather through Christ’s righteousness when we receive Him as Savior and Lord. What a beautiful day, expressly given to us that we, by our worship and study, may give thanks to the One to whom we owe our very lives, both at creation and at the cross!

The Sabbath is also a special time where we can glorify God through service to others, as Jesus Himself demonstrated while on this earth: “It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:12). It is particularly in these times of giving to others that we may remember all that God has given to us.

There is, it turns out, a long and fascinating history of the Sabbath that spans centuries, crosses cultures, and transcends politics. Our free video series The Seventh Day, hosted by Academy Award-winning actor Hal Holbrook, fills in the gaps and tells you just how the Sabbath has been used—and abused—over two millennia. You’ll never view the Sabbath in the same way after watching this informative, eye-opening series!

The Sabbath is not just another day of the week. It’s a day set apart from the usual toil and cares, a day for reflection on God’s goodness. It’s a day in which believers come together to praise God, to thank God, through worship, remembrance, study, and service. It is the true day of thanksgiving—and it is God’s gift to you.

Yes, the Sabbath was created for man since the beginning and was set apart to reflect on our relationship with God, to worship Him, give thanks, keep it holy. And it later became part of the Ten Commandments given to Israel along with 602 other laws.
What happenned that severed that relationship? Sin
So what was promised by God as a remedy to man's broken relationship? A Messiah, a Savior, who would take away those sins and restore that relationship.
When He came, all Jews were keeping the Sabbath, but not all received the "rest" which was promised, Jesus. He is our Sabbath rest. Through Him we have reconciled with God and He has restored our relationship. In Him we have peace from our works, rest and we give thanks 24/7. He is our Sabbath.
The Pharisees and many others who shouted "crucify Him" still would keep the Sabbath after that and try to keep the rest of their laws too. What good was that? There is good in practicing that, practicing holiness, goodness, love, etc. _ on earth. By doing so you live a good life, avoid and keep evil at bay; but it won't get you into heaven. You will die in your sins and be judged by the Law.
That physical day in our physical realm was to be temporal day of rest, a holy day until Christ. Now we have eternal rest in Christ in heaven and on earth everyday and so we are set apart, holy, at peace and rest in Christ.
Matthew 11:28

"For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His." Hebrews 4:3-10
 

Christ4Me

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Yes, the Sabbath was created for man since the beginning and was set apart to reflect on our relationship with God, to worship Him, give thanks, keep it holy. And it later became part of the Ten Commandments given to Israel along with 602 other laws.

@BarnyFife @1stCenturyLady @Backlit @Curtis @Ferris Bueller @GerhardEbersoehn @Cassandra

If they were keeping it since the beginning, there would be no need to have it as the 4th commandment.

I can believe the sons of God as Israel's ancestors going way back to Seth whom had replaced Abel that was slain, were honoring the Lord that day, but not quite like Israel did, because Israel was commanded to execute those breaking that commandment as part of keeping the sabbath day.

This lack of careful instructions to not kill anyone breaking the sabbath day for Christians to keep the sabbath day is found wanting in the N.T.

What happenned that severed that relationship? Sin
So what was promised by God as a remedy to man's broken relationship? A Messiah, a Savior, who would take away those sins and restore that relationship.
When He came, all Jews were keeping the Sabbath, but not all received the "rest" which was promised, Jesus. He is our Sabbath rest. Through Him we have reconciled with God and He has restored our relationship. In Him we have peace from our works, rest and we give thanks 24/7. He is our Sabbath.
The Pharisees and many others who shouted "crucify Him" still would keep the Sabbath after that and try to keep the rest of their laws too. What good was that? There is good in practicing that, practicing holiness, goodness, love, etc. _ on earth. By doing so you live a good life, avoid and keep evil at bay; but it won't get you into heaven. You will die in your sins and be judged by the Law.
That physical day in our physical realm was to be temporal day of rest, a holy day until Christ. Now we have eternal rest in Christ in heaven and on earth everyday and so we are set apart, holy, at peace and rest in Christ.
Matthew 11:28

"For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His." Hebrews 4:3-10

Do consider that Jesus is our resting place and not the actual sabbath day. See why below.

Others will know we are Christians by our love; not by our keeping the sabbath day for then how can they tell us apart from the Jews? How can Gentile believers in Christ know that Jewish believers in Christ are really believers if they continue to observe the sabbath?

So what sets us apart in the eyes of Jews, and the world, and God for God wants us to be set apart from them in representing the New Covenant?

When you read about how the Father draws us unto the Son to reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him to be saved, then our believing in Him is a work of God too for why we should know we are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The early churches in the N.T. worshipped Jesus Christ on the first day of the week because that is the Lord's day of His resurrection. That is when they did their collection at their church services for the support of the missionaries in the field.

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

So Christians were honoring the Lord on Sunday to be distinctive different from the Jews on the sabbath so both Jews & Gentile believers in Christ know they ae believers in Jesus Christ for honoring & worshiping on the first day of the week as the Lord's day of His resurrection.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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@BarnyFife @1stCenturyLady @Backlit @Curtis @Ferris Bueller @GerhardEbersoehn @Cassandra

If they were keeping it since the beginning, there would be no need to have it as the 4th commandment.

I can believe the sons of God as Israel's ancestors going way back to Seth whom had replaced Abel that was slain, were honoring the Lord that day, but not quite like Israel did, because Israel was commanded to execute those breaking that commandment as part of keeping the sabbath day.

This lack of careful instructions to not kill anyone breaking the sabbath day for Christians to keep the sabbath day is found wanting in the N.T.



Do consider that Jesus is our resting place and not the actual sabbath day. See why below.

Others will know we are Christians by our love; not by our keeping the sabbath day for then how can they tell us apart from the Jews? How can Gentile believers in Christ know that Jewish believers in Christ are really believers if they continue to observe the sabbath?

So what sets us apart in the eyes of Jews, and the world, and God for God wants us to be set apart from them in representing the New Covenant?

When you read about how the Father draws us unto the Son to reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him to be saved, then our believing in Him is a work of God too for why we should know we are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The early churches in the N.T. worshipped Jesus Christ on the first day of the week because that is the Lord's day of His resurrection. That is when they did their collection at their church services for the support of the missionaries in the field.

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

So Christians were honoring the Lord on Sunday to be distinctive different from the Jews on the sabbath so both Jews & Gentile believers in Christ know they ae believers in Jesus Christ for honoring & worshiping on the first day of the week as the Lord's day of His resurrection.

It is good to put aside a day for worship and praise but frankly that could be any day or all days. My church had services Friday and Saturday night and two on Sunday. Whatever worked with your schedule is the way I see it. It was a spirit-filled Church that flourished. Churches like Calvary Chapel grow tremendously. Why? God grew them. This is another sign that God is pleased with us - growth. I have visited stagnant churches that haven't grown in 50 years mainly because the Pastor and congregation were legalistic. We are not under the Law, we are under Grace. This Pastor would focus too much on sin and make you feel as though you weren't worthy to even receive communion with the Lord - quite damming. I never went back.

At the end of time will there be a Saturday or Sunday? Is there a Saturday or Sunday in Heaven? No.
Christ gave us examples of the church-types that existed throughout the Church Age in Revelation. Two out of Seven were righteous, the rest needed to repent for various reasons: sin, false doctrine, etc.
Legalism thwarts growth. Look at your church. Is it spirit-filled, loving, spreading love and joy, peace and good will or are they focused on the LAW, constantly pointing fingers, hitting people over the head with the Bible even to the point of anger and hatred? That kind of church will not grow and I would advice you to flee and find a better one.
 
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Curtis

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While not wanting a game of raquet ball, I would like to briefly answer. Revelation tells us that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Thus you are both correct. The new testament couldn't be enacted until Christ's death, not ratified without blood. But scripture clearly informs us that Christ did die at the beginning, and innocent blood was spilt on behalf of sinful man. The covenant promise was made to both Adam and Eve, and Satan was a witness. It's all in the first 3 chapters of Genesis.


The only reason the 4th Commandment was established was because the Sabbath needed to be embedded in progress memories. In the beginning it was not so. The Creator, the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus, blessed, sanctified, and made the 7th day holy. We remind people of this by referencing the law, but it isn't because of the law people need to observe the Sabbath. People need to observe the Sabbath because it's holy. For 6000 years it has remained holy. It's the day that is holy. Regardless of where you are, or who you are. It's not about Israel, Jews, or Christians, it Gentiles. The day is holy, and will always be so because God declared it to be holy. That's it. He hasn't changed that. The Sabbath, the 7th day of the week, is still holy!!
What God reminded Israel is that He wanted them to remember to keep it that way by their behavior during those holy hours. They could not keep it holy by simply resting. You can't honor a day by not doing anything. If that were the case, dead men can keep the Sabbath. The day is holy, and all men under the sun are required to remember to keep it holy. The rest you speak of is real, and that rest enables you to observe the Sabbath the way it ought to be.

So you are saying the Sabbath is still relevant, you admit you do profane God's holy day, I would appreciate you explaining how exactly you are guiltless for deliberately disobeying one of the commandments of God.

The sabbath command is defunct. It ended when the old covenant ended. The ten commands that have the 4th command, were in fact called ‘the covenant on on two tables of stone’ and the ark was called ‘the ark of the covenant’ because it held the two tables of the covenant.

The sabbath was never commanded by God to be kept as a law until Israel was given it as a memorial, remembrance, and a covenant sign between God and them after their Exodus from Egypt.

Holy just means set apart. The day of rest was commanded to Israel to keep as part of their covenant with God, and thus it’s no longer set apart for them, or anyone, to keep, because that covenant has ended.

The two love commands have replaced the Decalogue and there’s no day of rest or worship commanded to be kept in the two commands at all, which is why scripture says to the SDA to stop judging anyone for not keeping the sabbath, because it was a shadow of Jesus, who is the substance.

Jesus is our rest, 24/7, everyday we rest in Him and He gives us rest, Matthew 11:28-29.

That’s why scripture says to STOP judging anyone for what days the keep in Romans 14, and says for us not to let anyone judge us about not keeping the sabbaths, because they were but a shadow of Jesus, who is the substance, Colossians 2:16-17.

And that’s exactly what the SDA does - they judge everyone who doesn’t keep the ended 4th command, and keep insisting it is still for today.

They are in fact shadow keepers. They keep a shadow of Jesus, who is the substance.

Jesus is our sabbath, our rest. Therefore the sabbath is no longer a ceremonial day of rest, because He is the rest that the day was a foreshadow of.
 
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BarneyFife

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The law of Moses is the unified whole of all the commandments and requirements of God, including the Ten. They stand as a unified whole.
So why is that for every 9 anti-Sabbitarians (for lack of a better term) you query about this situation, you get 10 different answers?
And so it is with the literal Sabbath requirement. What that law sought to do - bring us into the rest that God has provided - has already been accomplished by bringing us into the Rest God has provided for us in Jesus Christ. IOW, I'm already at rest, in Christ. Why do I need to literally keep a law to do what has already been accomplished by my faith in Christ? I don't, of course.
And yet there's no place in the Bible where it explicitly says that the Sabbath has been wholly replaced by our spiritual rest in Christ. And since the fourth commandment is very explicit about its importance as an institution and moral imperative (it is, after all, declared amidst thunderings and lightnings and engraved on tablets of stone by the finger of God himself, as are the other nine), it would seem reasonable to expect an equally explicit declaration to announce its demise, of which, there are none in the entire Bible--not even a symbolic, prophetic utterance in the OT. And why haven't any of the other nine been replaced by spiritual implementation? Did God really place a strictly ceremonial, disposable requirement right in the middle of His moral code for mankind? I could go on and on but...
 

Ferris Bueller

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And yet there's no place in the Bible where it explicitly says that the Sabbath has been wholly replaced by our spiritual rest in Christ.
It has been wholly fulfilled. That is the proper terminology.

Since in Christ we have no outstanding debt of rest left to pay there's no need to try to do that through the commandment. It's the exact same reason why we don't try to atone for a sin debt, with a commanded sacrifice, that we don't have anymore.
 
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