The gift of tongues

[bbyrd009]

I wish you would deal with the Scriptures I provided to counter your judgment that Pentecostal glossolalia is "gurgling and cooing like a baby".

i do not believe that the Scriptures you quoted have anything to do with glossololia though, and i do not believe that you even can quote any Scripture about glossololia, period. You rely on passages that clearly describe xenoglossy, yet you cannot witness any "crowds, daily amazed," etc, or any witnesses to any "interpetation" you hear, such as Scripture documents (how is it we are hearing him in our own language?) and i don't want to get into this too much further wadr, because i will be perceived to be tromping on your beliefs, which i have no desire to do, ok. If they produce some fruit for you, then i say amen; witness the fruit, if any, and believe that as long as it produces fruit for you; i am persuaded that Paul condemned glossololia.

 

[bbyrd009]

I give up expecting exegesis of the text when you are committed to what you describe as 'this statement of Paul's to be strange and confusing'.

it is only strange and confusing if glossololia is genuine imo; it makes perfect sense otherwise. By all means consider what Paul meant for yourself. I note it gets a little harder to find every year, like tares being "weeds" to everyone now. I know it is an "alt" translation, but i can't even google it anymore. AMP maybe? Don't even remember lol. Used to be on the first page of a google search

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you believe in the authority of Scripture or not?

um, can you state an absolute truth from Scripture or not? Go ahead, and then i will answer your question. Hopefully you see that there is a debate about this precisely because Scripture is ambiguous about the subject, as It is about any subject. But i mean you are welcome to give it a shot if you like.

No, i do not believe in the "authority of Scripture," because if i did, any Clown Prince with a translation could steer me in any direction they so chose/translated, and i would be convinced that "Easter" was in the Book, too. I'll pass, ty. Word is better.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you don't, you'll give us subjective interpretation over and over.

all interpretations are by definition subjective, which is why we term them "interpretations," yes?

If you do, you will seek to understand what the Scriptures state.

Scripture makes no definitive statements, except ones that are countered in other passages; iow you cannot quote any "statements" from Scripture, at least not any ones that i cannot contest, with other Scripture. Try though you might. Weird, i know. All i can say is that there is a good reason for that.

 

[bbyrd009]

bb,

Please demonstrate that from Scripture. You haven't done that in this response. Where do you find 'xenoglossy' in Scripture. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines xenoglossy as ' purported use (as by a medium) while in a trance state of a language unknown to the individual under normal conditions' (Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2017. s v xenoglossy).

ok this is because MW is a whore and was bought out by pirates a long time ago, for specifically this reason. I find xenoglossy in Scripture in "how is it that we each hear in our own language?" and "crowds were amazed, every day (that they taught)" which tbh i believe are parables meant to impart spiritual understanding and not necessarily perfectly documented history, but that is regardless to your question.

And again i am not interested in trashing your belief in glossololia if it produces fruit for you ok. You might privately examine--or even publicly witness--the fruit of glossololia for yourself, and if it works for you, then what could i say to change that?

You might then understand counterfeit tongues for yourself, however you might, which might be different from my understanding, but regardless there is obviously a counterfeit, being as how tongues are from God, so it merely remains to be discovered, even if perhaps i am wrong, yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

Please show me where the words xenolalia and xenoglossy are used in the NT.

they, or at least "xenoglossy," is the common term used to describe the passages relating to public tongues in Scripture, as opposed to prayerful "groanings" alone in one's closet. And there are at least a couple instances given, which you must admit on some level do not compare with the services in your church, by which i do not mean to make any specific judgements, but simply a comparison.

In my experience glossololia obscures genuine "tongues," which are not xenoglossy either, but more importantly "what everyone wishes they could do," and are advised by Paul that they should "prophesy" instead, by which "blather on in a flowery syntax about essentially obvious things that God has already assured us will occur someday" is also not meant--not meaning to be belittling or whatever here, but meaning our current def of "prophecy" or at least "prophesy" prolly needs help too.

When you smile at the next Muslim you meet--instead of narrowing your eyes--and steadfastly refuse to ever, ever engage them in a pointless religious discussion, and just evince, show them that you are interested in getting along, in mutual respect, then your whole world will change, immediately. Because you will then understand a secret, and it will not matter that Christians and Muslims often do not agree or get along, once you begin agreeing and getting along. Oh and until you do this, are able to do this, you are going to be easily manipulable, and i can use fear of Muslims to sell you anything i want lol. There, a prophecy.

 

[bbyrd009]

How often do you go to Pentecostal/Charismatic churches to know that 'counterfeit tongues' is presented?

age 14 to about 35, and i hope it is understood that imo glossololia is the language of babies, so i guess "counterfeit" is not exactly the best descriptive, at least until it is applied correctly. There is no sin in being a baby; we are to become like little children, after all.

They can and generally do become a counterfeit, might be a better way to put it. "Well no one at all can do xenoglossy, like in Scripture, so by reduction (ad absurdio) Paul must have meant glossololia, or else wth could he have meant?"

 

[bbyrd009]

How do you discern the difference between true vs counterfeit tongues. What criteria do you use?

fruit. If it works for you, then do it. If you cannot witness any fruit, then pause and reflect. Not saying the following are speaking in tongues necessarily, but it can be observed that motivational speakers--who might be said to "speak with the tongues of angels" in our current idiom--tend to energize crowds, simply by empowering them verbally. People who can get a point across gracefully are rare, and this is even acknowledged as a gift.

the point possibly being that one feels advantaged by even listening to these speakers, especially if/when the perspectives produce fruit, which, being generally empowering, they are likely going to do. But of course charlatans can also empower people to engage in a Ponzi scheme, and get, say, 10% of their income or whatever. Look at the fruit.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm interested in what the Scriptures state and an accurate exegesis of the text.

then imo i would first understand that Scripture makes no statements such as you believe, and a logical approach to the Book is not the way to go, as hard as that is to contemplate, since we are raised to reason logically. Which is why i invited you to "state" an absolute truth from Scripture, which trust me always has an opposing statement in It somewhere.

So--you prolly aren't going to like this one even less--this thing that we are told, "accurate exegesis of the text," = "monkeys on typewriters, producing Shakespeare" imo; might be possible in some universe, but you will never see it. Bring me some exegesis that you trust, and i will show you; or you can do it too, it certainly is not difficult.

"Provide for your family"
or
"don't work for food."

which is it?

 

[bbyrd009]

I have just finished teaching through 1 Corinthians 14 for a home group in my church. Which verses in ch 14 would you like me to explain or comment on?

so, none of the above, see, i would like to hear that you empowered people to prophesy, you and that home group could spend an hour or less collecting donated food from your church by simply providing a box in the lobby for donations, it will fill up pretty fast, and then you could feed the local hungry for free.

Just an example, of course, i am not trying to steer you or anything. Something i prolly should already have made clear is that Pentecostals are in the...well i can't say "ascendancy" any more, more like "just past the zenith" in America, it is Pentecostals laying "hands of protection" on Trump--an avowed atheist--etc, so i don't know about Australian Pentecostalism, it is surely more benign at this point, but i hope to make the point that in the US it is pretty hard to get anything other than a self-righteous sermon from a Pent, they don't actually engage in any charity work or anything, church doors are usually locked, etc.

Of course this is only one perspective, surely many country Pent churches even here are more charitable, but "us four and no more" is a perspective famously attributed to Pents, etc, so this is a predominating pov i think. Don't get me wrong, i learned a lot from Pents, and there are many great, humble enduring Pents even here imo, but as a whole their borders are shrinking too, and the religion is in decline, for good reason i think.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not interested in subjective interpretation of tongues being 'gurgling and cooing like a baby'.

then answer for yourself what Paul meant there--if you can even find it anymore lol--and by all means do not pay attention to my understanding. I do not know for certain why Paul said that, ok.

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

ha, there's that word "charity" again, hmm.

 

[101G]

ha, there's that word "charity" again, hmm.

charity, that's a great word is is not?, just like the apostle and us today, if we don't have God/charity we're NOTHING. for God is LOVE/charity, ain't he the greatest....

 

[bbyrd009]

ha, just struck me funny that those purported to engage in tongues the most seem to be the least charitable, at least in the US. Granted there must be exceptions, i know some nice, humble, charitable Pents too.

 

[Sword]

charity, that's a great word is is not?, just like the apostle and us today, if we don't have God/charity we're NOTHING. for God is LOVE/charity, ain't he the greatest....

I was a director for a Charity that helps the needy in a lot of life situations. I just retired from it last month. Was with them 5 years. Still there are a volounter. We seen some great turn arounds in peoples lives. A lot of them now come to our church and accepted Christ as Lord. I baptised a few of them.

 

[101G]

I was a director for a Charity that helps the needy in a lot of life situations. I just retired from it last month. Was with them 5 years. Still there are a volounter. We seen some great turn arounds in peoples lives. A lot of them now come to our church and accepted Christ as Lord. I baptised a few of them.

That's GREAT, God be with you always.

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, MSG i guess

1 If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.
2 If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing.
3 If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.
4Love never gives up. Love cares more for others than for self. Love doesn't want what it doesn't have. Love doesn't strut, Doesn't have a swelled head,
5 Doesn't force itself on others, Isn't always "me first," Doesn't fly off the handle, Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
6 Doesn't revel when others grovel, Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
7 Puts up with anything, Trusts God always, Always looks for the best, Never looks back, But keeps going to the end.
8 Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit.
9 We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete.
10 But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
11 When I was an infant at my mother's breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good.

 

[OzSpen]

1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

You haven't told me where 'xenoglossy' is used in 1 Cor 12-14,

 

[101G]

once more, 1 Corinthians 13:1

 

[OzSpen]

once more, 1 Corinthians 13:1

101G,

You obviously don't know NT Greek, otherwise you would not be wanting to support xenoglossy with 1 Cor 13:1.

This is what 1 Cor 13:1 states in the Greek NT: Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον. There is γλώσσαις (glwssais) = with tongues. There is λαλῶ (lalw) = I speak. There is absolutely no word, xenoglossy.

Nice try, but you'll need to stick with the exegesis of the Greek text and your xenoglossy is eisegesis of the text - your imposition of your meaning on the text.

Oz