The gift of tongues

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OzSpen

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i do not believe that the Scriptures you quoted have anything to do with glossololia though, and i do not believe that you even can quote any Scripture about glossololia, period. You rely on passages that clearly describe xenoglossy, yet you cannot witness any "crowds, daily amazed," etc, or any witnesses to any "interpetation" you hear, such as Scripture documents (how is it we are hearing him in our own language?) and i don't want to get into this too much further wadr, because i will be perceived to be tromping on your beliefs, which i have no desire to do, ok. If they produce some fruit for you, then i say amen; witness the fruit, if any, and believe that as long as it produces fruit for you; i am persuaded that Paul condemned glossololia.

What's the meaning of glossolalia from the Greek NT?
 

101G

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101G,

You obviously don't know NT Greek, otherwise you would not be wanting to support xenoglossy with 1 Cor 13:1.

This is what 1 Cor 13:1 states in the Greek NT: Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον. There is γλώσσαις (glwssais) = with tongues. There is λαλῶ (lalw) = I speak. There is absolutely no word, xenoglossy.

Nice try, but you'll need to stick with the exegesis of the Greek text and your xenoglossy is eisegesis of the text - your imposition of your meaning on the text.

Oz
so you don't believe the apostle Paul?. Xenoglossy is the putative phenomenon in which a person is able to speak a language that he or she could not have acquired by natural means. so again you don't believe that the apostle Paul in other languages or the angel language?, well sorry for you.
 
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bbyrd009

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What's the meaning of glossolalia from the Greek NT?
well, I am using the term in the current vernacular, which is unusual for me, but it is a pretty recent word i guess, so i'll just post this, with the understanding that you disagree in some particular, but i want to emphasize that we are deconstructing Tongues logically, and i do not believe that we will approach the spiritual intent of the passage this way, ok.

And again, if you are getting fruit, works unto repentance mainly, or any other benefit that you can witness from glossolalia, then i am more interested in hearing about that. I just could not get away from the impression that people were trying too hard, to accomplish something that they were told was salvational--or "getting the Holy Ghost" in that context/belief system--when all i could witness was an emotional outburst.

What does St. Paul mean by "speaking in tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12:10?
In the original Greek text, St. Paul uses the word γλῶσσα (glosson), meaning "tongue" or "language" as in a foreign language. Here, that word is part of the phrase γένη γλῶσσα (gene glosson), which means the ecstatic speech overcome by strong emotion in cultic context. Some would assert that this speech, referred to as speaking in tongues, is what some Pentecostals or other charismatic-type individuals experience in prayer, but this is not the case. The distinction concerns two different kinds of speaking in tongues: "glossolalia" and "xenolalia."
The speaking in tongues mentioned in this passage and many other places in the New Testament is a true charism of the Holy Spirit. It is an articulate, intelligible utterance that could be interpreted and not signs or unconnected words or an enigmatic language. As many of the Fathers and other sources relate, what Paul refers to is not unintelligible but something interpretable.
In the New Testament, with the exception of Luke 24:27, the phrase "to interpret" always refers to the translation from a foreign language to the vernacular. Since Paul refers to the interpretation of these tongues, it must mean that they are foreign languages and not unintelligible utterances. In other words, "speaking in tongues" means speaking in languages that are real but previously unknown to the individual. In this sense, the gift is more properly termed in English, "xenolalia."
Basically, the distinction comes from the English language and not the Greek. The English language possesses several words that one could argue fit into this context, but only "xenolalia" satisfies the word for "interpret" that Paul uses within the same sentence. This, along with the consistent understanding in the New Testament of speaking in foreign, intelligible languages, means that Paul refers here to speaking in previously unknown foreign languages.
What about the types of tongues mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14?

A key passage for an accurate understanding of St. Paul is verses 9-11:


If you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me.

Clearly St. Paul speaks here in reference to actual languages (v. 10), and this means that the gift of tongues refers to "xenolalia." As stated above, the multiple references to "interpreting" (vv. 5, 13, 27-28) all use the same Greek verb that implies the interpretation/translation of a foreign language. As far as I understand, this verb does not leave open the possibility of interpretation of non-real languages/gibberish (glossolalia). For consistency's sake, any time "tongue" is referenced, it means "xenolalia."


This position, while rarely- if ever- found among recent and current interpretations of Sacred Scripture, is held by the great majority of Patristic commentators, especially the Saints. It would be very strange for St. Paul to use the same language of "gift of tongues" to refer to something other than the obvious xenolalic gift of tongues in Acts 2. One could argue that St. Paul wrote specifically for the Corinthians and they may have possessed some specific gift of tongues, but St. Paul knew well that his letters were read in more communities than simply the one to whom they were addressed. As a result, he would not write anything that would potentially confuse the gift of tongues ("xenolalia") and "glossolalia."
Glossolalia & Xenolalia
 
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OzSpen

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so you don't believe the apostle Paul?. Xenoglossy is the putative phenomenon in which a person is able to speak a language that he or she could not have acquired by natural means. so again you don't believe that the apostle Paul in other languages or the angel language?, well sorry for you.

Xenoglossy means 'purported use (as by a medium) while in a trance state of a language unknown to the individual under normal conditions' (Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2017. s v xenoglossy).

There is no trance state of languages used by the apostle Paul. The word 'xenoglossy' does not appear in 1 Cor 13:1, as you claimed. I provided the Greek text of that verse for you to examine it. Why don't you acknowledge that? I support the apostle Paul's teaching on glossolalia and not your trance xenoglossy.

What on earth do you mean by your statement, 'so again you don't believe that the apostle Paul in other languages or the angel language?' Please be coherent in your response.

Oz
 

101G

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Xenoglossy means 'purported use (as by a medium) while in a trance state of a language unknown to the individual under normal conditions' (Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2017. s v xenoglossy).

There is no trance state of languages used by the apostle Paul. The word 'xenoglossy' does not appear in 1 Cor 13:1, as you claimed. I provided the Greek text of that verse for you to examine it. Why don't you acknowledge that? I support the apostle Paul's teaching on glossolalia and not your trance xenoglossy.

What on earth do you mean by your statement, 'so again you don't believe that the apostle Paul in other languages or the angel language?' Please be coherent in your response.

Oz
ERROR on your part. you said, "The word 'xenoglossy' does not appear in 1 Cor 13:1, as you claimed". I love you smart guys, listen up DD, have you heard of the word Implied: it means suggested but not directly expressed; implicit. And do you know what implicit means: understood though not clearly or directly stated. LOL, LOL, LOL, my my my how
Ignorant are these so called educated people. ...... :(
 

OzSpen

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well, I am using the term in the current vernacular, which is unusual for me, but it is a pretty recent word i guess, so i'll just post this, with the understanding that you disagree in some particular, but i want to emphasize that we are deconstructing Tongues logically, and i do not believe that we will approach the spiritual intent of the passage this way, ok.

And again, if you are getting fruit, works unto repentance mainly, or any other benefit that you can witness from glossolalia, then i am more interested in hearing about that. I just could not get away from the impression that people were trying too hard, to accomplish something that they were told was salvational--or "getting the Holy Ghost" in that context/belief system--when all i could witness was an emotional outburst.

What does St. Paul mean by "speaking in tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12:10?
In the original Greek text, St. Paul uses the word γλῶσσα (glosson), meaning "tongue" or "language" as in a foreign language. Here, that word is part of the phrase γένη γλῶσσα (gene glosson), which means the ecstatic speech overcome by strong emotion in cultic context. Some would assert that this speech, referred to as speaking in tongues, is what some Pentecostals or other charismatic-type individuals experience in prayer, but this is not the case. The distinction concerns two different kinds of speaking in tongues: "glossolalia" and "xenolalia."
The speaking in tongues mentioned in this passage and many other places in the New Testament is a true charism of the Holy Spirit. It is an articulate, intelligible utterance that could be interpreted and not signs or unconnected words or an enigmatic language. As many of the Fathers and other sources relate, what Paul refers to is not unintelligible but something interpretable.
In the New Testament, with the exception of Luke 24:27, the phrase "to interpret" always refers to the translation from a foreign language to the vernacular. Since Paul refers to the interpretation of these tongues, it must mean that they are foreign languages and not unintelligible utterances. In other words, "speaking in tongues" means speaking in languages that are real but previously unknown to the individual. In this sense, the gift is more properly termed in English, "xenolalia."
Basically, the distinction comes from the English language and not the Greek. The English language possesses several words that one could argue fit into this context, but only "xenolalia" satisfies the word for "interpret" that Paul uses within the same sentence. This, along with the consistent understanding in the New Testament of speaking in foreign, intelligible languages, means that Paul refers here to speaking in previously unknown foreign languages.
What about the types of tongues mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14?

A key passage for an accurate understanding of St. Paul is verses 9-11:


If you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me.

Clearly St. Paul speaks here in reference to actual languages (v. 10), and this means that the gift of tongues refers to "xenolalia." As stated above, the multiple references to "interpreting" (vv. 5, 13, 27-28) all use the same Greek verb that implies the interpretation/translation of a foreign language. As far as I understand, this verb does not leave open the possibility of interpretation of non-real languages/gibberish (glossolalia). For consistency's sake, any time "tongue" is referenced, it means "xenolalia."


This position, while rarely- if ever- found among recent and current interpretations of Sacred Scripture, is held by the great majority of Patristic commentators, especially the Saints. It would be very strange for St. Paul to use the same language of "gift of tongues" to refer to something other than the obvious xenolalic gift of tongues in Acts 2. One could argue that St. Paul wrote specifically for the Corinthians and they may have possessed some specific gift of tongues, but St. Paul knew well that his letters were read in more communities than simply the one to whom they were addressed. As a result, he would not write anything that would potentially confuse the gift of tongues ("xenolalia") and "glossolalia."
Glossolalia & Xenolalia

There are too many errors of exegesis for me to engage with them this late on a Monday night. Your copy and paste of a large chunk from another site has caused you to accept the imposition of meaning on the text that does not come from the text.

Take your statement: 'What does St. Paul mean by "speaking in tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12:10? In the original Greek text, St. Paul uses the word γλῶσσα (glosson), meaning "tongue" or "language" as in a foreign language. Here, that word is part of the phrase γένη γλῶσσα (gene glosson), which means the ecstatic speech overcome by strong emotion in cultic context'.

Who said so? That's eisegesis, the imposition of another meaning on the text. That is not what the Greek text says according to lexicons and grammar. I don't have the time to engage in correcting that at this late hour.

You seem to be only interested in tearing down the Pentecostal-charismatic experience of tongues with your imposition on the text.

Oz

Bye,
Oz
 
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OzSpen

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ERROR on your part. you said, "The word 'xenoglossy' does not appear in 1 Cor 13:1, as you claimed". I love you smart guys, listen up DD, have you heard of the word Implied: it means suggested but not directly expressed; implicit. And do you know what implicit means: understood though not clearly or directly stated. LOL, LOL, LOL, my my my how
Ignorant are these so called educated people. ...... :(

An ad hominem logical fallacy (abusive) like this is attacking me as a person when the attack on me is completely irrelevant to the argument I've been making about the nature of the gift of tongues in 1 Cor 13:1.

You try that approach one more time and I'll put you on my ignore list.
 

101G

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There are too many errors of exegesis for me to engage with them this late on a Sat night. Your copy and paste of a large chunk from another site has caused you to accept the imposition of meaning on the text that does not come from the text.

Take your statement: 'What does St. Paul mean by "speaking in tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12:10? In the original Greek text, St. Paul uses the word γλῶσσα (glosson), meaning "tongue" or "language" as in a foreign language. Here, that word is part of the phrase γένη γλῶσσα (gene glosson), which means the ecstatic speech overcome by strong emotion in cultic context'.

Who said so? That's eisegesis, the imposition of another meaning on the text. That is not what the Greek text says according to lexicons and grammar. I don't have the time to engage in correcting that at this late hour.

You seem to be only interested in tearing down the Pentecostal-charismatic experience of tongues with your imposition on the text.

Oz

Bye,
Oz
LOL, LOL, LOL, stuck again, can't answer only offer excuse.
#1. "There are too many errors of exegesis for me to engage with them this late on a Sat night". EXCUSE.
#2. "'What does St. Paul mean by "speaking in tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12:10? In the original Greek text, St. Paul uses the word γλῶσσα (glosson), meaning "tongue" or "language" as in a foreign language". he means he did it by unnatural means the Spirit, hence Xenoglossy the putative phenomenon in which a person is able to speak a language that he or she could not have acquired by natural means.
#3. "Who said so?", God, see oz you don't believe........ (smile), lost without a cause.
#4. "That is not what the Greek text says according to lexicons and grammar". but that's what's IMPLIED.... LOL.
#5. "I don't have the time to engage in correcting that at this late hour". another excuse, because you can't.... LOL.

Oz, you been skinned alive. I have taken away your Eisegesis,because you never had any real good exegesis, and taken away your language, and your education all in one post....... :cool:

so I suggest you go back and acquire some more skills........ (smile) I just LOVE the word of God, and have fun with you educated. oh by the way, I think you drop something on the floor.....
 

bbyrd009

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There are too many errors of exegesis for me to engage with them this late on a Monday night. Your copy and paste of a large chunk from another site has caused you to accept the imposition of meaning on the text that does not come from the text.

Take your statement: 'What does St. Paul mean by "speaking in tongues" in 1 Corinthians 12:10? In the original Greek text, St. Paul uses the word γλῶσσα (glosson), meaning "tongue" or "language" as in a foreign language. Here, that word is part of the phrase γένη γλῶσσα (gene glosson), which means the ecstatic speech overcome by strong emotion in cultic context'.

Who said so? That's eisegesis, the imposition of another meaning on the text. That is not what the Greek text says according to lexicons and grammar. I don't have the time to engage in correcting that at this late hour.

You seem to be only interested in tearing down the Pentecostal-charismatic experience of tongues with your imposition on the text.

Oz

Bye,
Oz
well hopefully you understand that that is not mine, and i have already acknowledged that it is not your position, although i was not sure at what spot you would disagree.

Perhaps a witness of the fruit you perceive coming from SiT in your church would be more in order? How does it benefit you, or what works unto repentance can you witness proceeding from the practice?
 
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bbyrd009

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Here, that word is part of the phrase γένη γλῶσσα (gene glosson), which means the ecstatic speech overcome by strong emotion in cultic context'.

Who said so? That's eisegesis, the imposition of another meaning on the text. That is not what the Greek text says according to lexicons and grammar.
ah; what do they say? ty
 

bbyrd009

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another perspective on Tongues, that examines it from the perspective of being a largely Corinthian phenomenon; strangely enough i first heard this from a Pent pastor.

"It is not a new thought that pagan forces were hard at work in the church at Corinth, but their identity and to what degree they influenced that congregation, is a matter of debate. Scholars of the History of Religions school earlier in this century believed that Christians, including those at Corinth, were affected by the Hellenistic mystery religions.1 On the other hand Schmithals and others have posited Gnostic influence in the church at Corinth.2

Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued. Some of the characteristics of Gnosticism were already present in the general religious attitudes in the first century A.D.; but since Gnosticism was a later Christian heresy,3 it would be anachronistic to see Gnosticism in Corinth. Whatever the cause, the church in this hub of pagan perversity was in grave trouble; the church abounded in nonbiblical and immoral practices.

Proper Methodology in Approaching the Problem...
Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth

wherein a better grasp of the meaning of the use of the phrase "clashing cymbals" might be gained. The pine tree (or cone, an icon of the RCC) is also discussed, also

"With the ecstacisrn of Dionysianism and the emphasis on tongues-speaking and oracles in the religion of Apollo, it is not surprising that some of the Corinthians carried these pagan ideas in the church at Corinth, especially the practice of glossolalia for which both of these religions are known (though the Dionysian cult did not include interpretation of the glossolalia as did that of Apollo)"
 
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bbyrd009

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quoting

"The mystery-cults of the empire were designed to induce both higher and lower forms of ecstatic feeling."29 The expression of the ecstatic state took various forms, such as gashing one’s flesh, dancing nude in a frenzy, and speaking in ecstatic utterance. The latter was the means whereby the devotees sought to have communion with the saving deity. Here the significance of the term "glossolalia," or "speaking in tongues," comes to the fore. "The gift of tongues and of their interpretation was not peculiar to the Christian Church, but was a repetition in it of a phrase common in ancient religions. The very phrase glossais lalein, ‘to speak with tongues,’ was not invented by the New Testament writers, but borrowed from ordinary speech."30



Mystery (musterion). The term mystery is used in the New Testament but with a different force (except for possibly 1 Cor 14:2). Hay clarifies the difference between these two usages.

  • In the New Testament it refers to the things of God that could not be known by man except through revelation from God. The revelation given of these things by the Holy Spirit is not obscure but clear and is given to be communication to God’s people (1 Cor 2:1—16). It is not given privately in unknown words. In heathen religions this word referred to the hidden secrets of the gods which only the initiated could know. Those initiated into such mysteries claimed to have contact with the spirit world through emotional excitement, revelations, the working of miracles and the speaking of unknown words revealed by the spirits. In the New Testament Church every Christian is initiated.34
Possibly Paul spoke of these mysteries when he wrote that "one who speaks in a tongue…speaks mysteries" (1 Cor 14:2). If this is not an allusion to mystery terminology, it is certainly not a commendation from the apostle.
 

bbyrd009

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Similar Attitudes in Worship

Se!f-centered worship. Ecstatic religion by its very nature is self-oriented. Christians were to use their Christian charismata for the common good, but the pagans were totally concerned about their own personal experience, an attitude also prevalent among Corinthian Christians.


Pauline Arguments

In seeking to lead the Corinthian Christians to a proper understanding of the workings of the Spirit, especially the gift of tongues, Paul used several methods of argumentation. Rather than speaking immediately against their practice in the meetings, he desired to find a common ground of departure, endeavoring to bring them to his position at the end. This procedure was recognized by Chadwick.

  • The entire drift of the argument of 1 Cor. xii—xiv {1 Cor 12—1 Cor 14} is such as to pour a douche of ice-cold water over the whole practice. But Paul could hardly have denied that the gift of tongues was a genuine supernatural charisma without putting a fatal barrier between himself and the Corinthian enthusiasts…. [for] the touchstone of soundness in the eyes of those claiming to be possessed by the Spirit was whether their gift was recognized to be a genuine work of God. To deny this recognition was to prove oneself to be altogether lacking in the Spirit. That Paul was fully aware of this issue appears not only from 1 Cor ii.14—15 {1 Cor 2}, but also from 1 Cor xiv.37—8 {1 Cor 14}, a masterly sentence which has the effect of brilliantly forestalling possible counter-attack at the most dangerous point, and indeed carries the war into the enemy camp. To have refused to recognize the practice as truly supernatural would have been catastrophic. Paul must fully admit that glossolalia is indeed a divine gift; but, he urges, it is the most inferior of all gifts. But Paul does more than admit it. He asserts it: eucaristoto theo, panton humon mallon glossais lalo (xiv 18 {1 Cor 14:18}). No stronger assertion of his belief in the validity of this gift of the Spirit could be made; and in the context it is a master touch which leaves the enthusiasts completely outclassed and outmaneuvered on their own ground.42
Many of Paul’s statements, then, should perhaps be recognized as conciliatory rather than commendatory. The statement, "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" (1 Cor 14:4) is not commendatory. Paul merely conceded a point here for argument. He did not affirm the legitimacy of that believer’s experience as from the Holy Spirit. One might even say that irony is to be found in Paul’s statement.

  • It should be carefully noted that if Paul is not using irony here, then he is crediting very carnal believers with an intimacy with the Holy Spirit and with God, with deep spiritual experiences, that all his other writings, and all the rest of Scripture, teach most emphatically can never be entered into by a carnal believer…. He is using irony as a weapon to lay bare the emptiness of the claims of carnal believers.43
In addition, if Paul’s statement is one of truth, not irony, then it contradicts 1 Corinthians 12:7, that grace-gifts (charismata) are "for the common good," and also 13:1—3 {1 Cor 13}, that gifts are not to be self-centered. Paul also used irony in 1 Corinthians 4:8—10.
 
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Frank Lee

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We must be led of the Holy Spirit in all things. If we persist in trying to convince others of anything beyond the shake off the dust of your feet time, then we are on our own.

It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. It's my job to be obedient to whatever He gives me to do.

Zeal without the wisdom of God is folly.

1 Corinthians 14:38 KJVS
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 
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well hopefully you understand that that is not mine, and i have already acknowledged that it is not your position, although i was not sure at what spot you would disagree.

Perhaps a witness of the fruit you perceive coming from SiT in your church would be more in order? How does it benefit you, or what works unto repentance can you witness proceeding from the practice?

I know that SIT is an acronym for System Integration Testing. For what is SiT an acronym?
 

OzSpen

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well hopefully you understand that that is not mine, and i have already acknowledged that it is not your position, although i was not sure at what spot you would disagree.

Perhaps a witness of the fruit you perceive coming from SiT in your church would be more in order? How does it benefit you, or what works unto repentance can you witness proceeding from the practice?

So what are your issues with the gift of tongues in 1 Cor 12-14? Please list them and I'll respond one at a time as I have time.
 

OzSpen

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We must be led of the Holy Spirit in all things. If we persist in trying to convince others of anything beyond the shake off the dust of your feet time, then we are on our own.

It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. It's my job to be obedient to whatever He gives me to do.

Zeal without the wisdom of God is folly.

1 Corinthians 14:38 KJVS
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Frank, are you supportive or not of the gift of tongues for today in the church?

I'm speaking of tongues as a genuine gift of the Spirit given to some and not to all. We know from 1 Cor 12:30 and the Greek construction that the answer to the question, 'Do all speak in tongues?' that the answer is no!

Most Greek MSS of 1 Cor 14:38 can be translated, 'But if you do not recognize this, you yourself will not be recognized' (NLT). However, some MSS do have it as you've provided from the KJV.

Oz