RLT63
Well-Known Member
Okay Think. It’s called Christian Forums.i dont post on any other forum except Helen’s, where im more or less asleep at the moment. So i guess id need a link
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Okay Think. It’s called Christian Forums.i dont post on any other forum except Helen’s, where im more or less asleep at the moment. So i guess id need a link
What is the perfection to which we are directed by Jesus here?Okay. I am not into Wesley and I have no real interest in him. I know he was for holiness, but there are varying opinions about his beliefs. His life and beliefs really don’t interest me. The Bible interests me.
As for Galatians 3:3 saying being perfected by the flesh:
This is in reference to the problem of which I call “Circumcision Salvationism” (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, etc.). This was the false belief that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved.
As for perfection mentioned in the Bible. You either believe it or you don’t believe it.
Mt 5:48 | Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. |
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1 |
maybe a similar handle or something? havent been there in yearsOkay Think. It’s called Christian Forums.
maybe a similar handle or something? havent been there in years
a link might be intriguing at this point lol
didnt know about my relation to Esau then idt
Amen. I agree. Some people just don’t like what the Bible says in certain places.What is the perfection to which we are directed by Jesus here?
Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
What did Paul say relating to this?
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
The words that I speak from God’s Word are for all who are able to receive them. I believe there is an age of accountability. When they reach that time, then the Lord will of course strive to get them to accept His Word. If a person knows what sin is and they sin and they reject God’s Word in this life, there is no hope for them. Do you believe in Universalism? This is the false belief that all people who have ever lived will be save (including the wicked). Is that what you believe?well, little kids “sin” all the time, why do you not castigate them? So it might be the diff in deliberate transgression bc “me” v “we were very hungery, and just bc it’s Sabbath and you have a law against reaching out ones hand…” etc etc. Only little kids generally transgress bc “me” anyway, huh.
So you believe that the culture influenced the Bible on the word “perfect”? If that is the case, then it doesn’t sound like you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 in that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. We are Christians because of what the Bible says. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). If there was even one error in your Bible, then how can you trust the rest of it? In other words, God’s Word is either all true, or it’s all false. I choose to believe God’s Word is all true (Every word of it). It’s how I have my faith. It’s how my life has been changed by the LORD.So tbh, i dont really know, as it is not something i have heard yet; i still seek there. But i will say that some anabaptists i hung with have this way of disapproving without any outward sign whatsoever…its like they are effusive about so many things that we might go “meh” to, so when it happens, it‘s just palpable. Um, not sure how that relates lol, gimme a sec…ya, thats all i got, for now anyway, sorry. “Perfect” has been defined for you by our culture imo, and i doubt that Yah uses that standard
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Amen. I agree. Some people just don’t like what the Bible says in certain places.
It shall help thee greatly to understand scriptureWhat is the perfection to which we are directed by Jesus here?
Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
What did Paul say relating to this?
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
Ellen Gould White?i dont post on any other forum except Helen’s, where im more or less asleep at the moment. So i guess id need a link
Was this your own study or somebody else’s?Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
perfect. In addition to the explanation of this perfection in the Note on Mat_5:20, it may be remarked that it consists chiefly in Love, "the fulfilling of the law" and great likeness to God, as appears from the context, and the parallel Luk_6:36, which see (De Burgh). Gr. teleios [S# G5046: Mat_19:21, Rom_12:2, 1Co_2:6; 1Co_13:10; 1Co_14:20 (men). Eph_4:13, Php_3:15, *Col_1:28; Col_4:12, Heb_5:14 (full age). Heb_9:11, Jas_1:4; Jas_1:17; Jas_1:25; Jas_3:2, 1Jn_4:18]. T285, Mat_19:21; Mat_22:37-39, Gen_6:9; +Gen_17:1, Lev_8:36; *Lev_11:44; +Lev_19:2; *Lev_20:26; Lev_21:21, *>Deu_18:13; Deu_27:10, 1Ki_8:61, +2Ki_20:3, *Job_1:1; *Job_1:8; Job_2:3; Job_9:20-21, +*Psa_37:18 note, Psa_37:37; Psa_119:1 mg. +Pro_21:3 (T629). Pro_23:17, %Ecc_7:16, Son_8:10, Zep_3:13, *Luk_6:36; *Luk_6:40, Joh_17:23, 1Co_2:6; *1Co_10:31; 1Co_14:20 mg. +*2Co_7:1 (T501). *2Co_13:9; *2Co_13:11, Php_2:15; **Php_3:12-15, Col_1:28; *Col_4:12, 1Ti_4:12, Heb_5:14; Heb_6:1; *Heb_13:21, *Jas_1:4; **Jas_3:2, *1Pe_1:15; *1Pe_1:16; *1Pe_5:10, *2Pe_3:11; *2Pe_3:12, 1Jn_3:2, Jud_1:21, Rev_3:2; Rev_14:5.
Just to put it into context for you
Mat 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect. [Lev_19:2, Lev_19:18]
teleios
τέλειος
téleios; fem. teleía, neut. téleion, adj. from télos (G5056), goal, purpose. Finished, that which has reached its end, term, limit; hence, complete, full, wanting in nothing.
(I) Generally (Jas_1:4, Jas_1:17, Jas_1:25; 1Jn_4:18 [cf. Heb_9:11]; Sept.: Exo_12:5). Figuratively, in a moral sense, of persons (Mat_5:48 [cf. Luk_6:36]; Mat_19:21; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jas_1:4; Jas_3:2); the will of God (Rom_12:2; Sept.: Gen_6:9; 1Ki_11:4). When used in a moral sense referring to God's expectation of us, it means completely blameless. A "perfect gift" in Jas_1:17 means one that has all the necessary qualities. In Jas_1:4, "that ye may be perfect" means that you may keep yourself "unspotted from the world." It has a similar meaning in Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21; Rom_12:2; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jas_3:2.
(II) Specifically of persons meaning full age, adulthood, full-grown, of persons, meaning full-grown in mind and understanding (1Co_14:20); in knowledge of the truth (1Co_2:6; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14); in Christian faith and virtue (Eph_4:13). In the neut. tó téleion means the final destination of the believer, that is, heaven (1Co_13:10, as contrasted to the full age in knowledge and understanding in 1Co_13:11). This image of fully completed growth as contrasted with infancy and childhood underlies the ethical use of téleioi, being set over against the babes in Christ (1Co_2:6; 1Co_14:20; Eph_4:13-14; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14).
(III) Téleios can be used in a relative or absolute sense (Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21). God's perfection is absolute; man's is relative. The téleios is one who has attained moral maturity, the goal for which he was intended, namely, to be a man obedient in Christ.
(IV) Tó téleion, perfect, in the neut. means the complete one in contrast with tó ek mérous (ek [G1537], of; mérous [G3313], a part), that which is in part. Tó téleion, therefore, indicates the ultimate goal of heavenly perfection as contrasted with the immediate and merely partial experience of saints on earth (1Co_13:10). In 1Jn_4:18 hēteleía agápē ([G26], love), the perfect love, means the love which is mature, not lacking boldness or confidence and therefore not hampered by the insecurity or anxiety which are characteristic of immature love.
(V) Also generally, it means what is renowned or preeminent (Heb_9:11; Jas_1:25).
Deriv.: teleiótēs (G5047), completeness, perfection; teleióō (G5048), to complete, perfect; teleíōs (G5049), completely, without wavering, to the end.
Syn.: ártios (G739), fitted, complete, perfect; plḗrēs (G4134), complete, full; mestós (G3324), full; ámemptos (G273), irreproachable, blameless; áptaistos (G679), not stumbling, without transgression; holóklēros (G3648), entire, whole.
Téleios is not to be confused with anamártētos (G361), without sin or sinless.
Ant.: endeḗs (G1729), lacking, deficient.
You shall therefore be perfect. This perfection does not mean equality, but relates solely to resemblance. (423) However distant we are from the perfection of God, we are said to be perfect, as he is perfect, when we aim at the same object, which he presents to us in Himself. Should it be thought preferable, we may state it thus. There is no comparison here made between God and us: but the perfection of God means, first, that free and pure kindness, which is not induced by the expectation of gain; — and, secondly, that remarkable goodness, which contends with the malice and ingratitude of men. This appears more clearly from the words of Luke, Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful: for mercy is contrasted with a mercenary regard, which is founded on private advantage.
(423) “Ceste perfection ne signifie pas qu’il y ait une.equalite et mesme mesure, mais elle se rapporte seulement a quelque ressemblance ou ap-proche.” — “That perfection does not mean that there is an equality or thee same measure, but it relates solely to some resemblance or approach.”
Does perfect/teleios mean sinless perfection? Or, God forbid...Godhood?
J.
Here is what I am saying...many are "feigning" themselves to be super holy on CF's...go visit them in their homes, and be ready for a shocking surprise...speaking from experience...well, little kids “sin” all the time, why do you not castigate them? So it might be the diff in deliberate transgression bc “me” v “we were very hungery, and just bc it’s Sabbath and you have a law against reaching out ones hand…” etc etc. Only little kids generally transgress bc “me” anyway, huh.
So tbh, i dont really know, as it is not something i have heard yet; i still seek there. But i will say that some anabaptists i hung with have this way of disapproving without any outward sign whatsoever…its like they are effusive about so many things that we might go “meh” to, so when it happens, it‘s just palpable. Um, not sure how that relates lol, gimme a sec…ya, thats all i got, for now anyway, sorry. “Perfect” has been defined for you by our culture imo, and i doubt that Yah uses that standard
It does not change the Word of God. Believers are to strive to be perfect and holy in this life. Being made holy in conduct is a process (2 Corinthians 7:1). Remember, only Noah and his family were on the Ark. So you cannot walk by sight but by faith. Look at the Bible and nobody else. But are you going to do that? In other words, I would encourage you to stop quoting the popular preachers. Stop reading what others say and just read the Bible yourself and believe what it says at face value and ask God for the understanding. Don’t speak against what the Bible plainly says. For ask yourself: What is my motivation for not liking the word “perfect” in the Bible? Is it based upon purely honorable reasons so as to serve God or is it a selfish reason?Here is what I am saying...many are "feigning" themselves to be super holy on CF's...go visit them in their homes, and be ready for a shocking surprise...speaking from experience...
J.
I would not call sinless perfectionism a "heresy". That is going too far. Misguided thinking would fit better. While all Christians must strive to hate sin and love righteousness, Christians can and do sin, and God has provided a way to deal with that. The focus should always be on righteousness.The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
The Bible clearly teaches us to be perfect, though. So it’s not misguided at all if one believes the Bible at face value.I would not call sinless perfectionism a "heresy". That is going too far. Misguided thinking would fit better. While all Christians must strive to hate sin and love righteousness, Christians can and do sin, and God has provided a way to deal with that. The focus should always be on righteousness.
Brother, don't assume that I am "selective" in my bible studies.It does not change the Word of God. Believers are to strive to be perfect and holy in this life. Being made holy in conduct is a process (2 Corinthians 7:1). Remember, only Noah and his family were on the Ark. So you cannot walk by sight but by faith. Look at the Bible and nobody else. But are you going to do that? In other words, I would encourage you to stop quoting the popular preachers. Stop reading what others say and just read the Bible yourself and believe what it says at face value and ask God for the understanding. Don’t speak against what the Bible plainly says. For ask yourself: What is my motivation for not liking the word “perfect” in the Bible? Is it based upon purely honorable reasons so as to serve God or is it a selfish reason?
The Bible is a book that should change YOU, and you should not change the Bible when you don’t like what it says.
Somehow, I think we have Hyper-Grace teachings with the Word of Faith Movement coupled with Passivism...."we have entered into His rest"Christians can and do sin,
@Bible Highlighter, again, don't make false assumptions [you have sinned]The Bible is a book that should change YOU, and you should not change the Bible when you don’t like what it says.
Of course the Bible teaches us to be perfect, and every Christian should strive for perfection. But even the apostle Paul did not claim that he had achieved perfection. However, when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture we shall be perfected (1 John 3:1-3).The Bible clearly teaches us to be perfect, though. So it’s not misguided at all if one believes the Bible at face value.
(2 Corinthians 7:1).
Fully concurOf course the Bible teaches us to be perfect, and every Christian should strive for perfection. But even the apostle Paul did not claim that he had achieved perfection. However, when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture we shall be perfected (1 John 3:1-3).
I don't believe the bible talks about us being sinLESS as long as we remain in the body (mentioned in my post above). Because John wrote that we all "have" sin. (Only Jesus "had" no sin.) But that doesn't mean we have to necessarily "commit" sin. John also wrote that whoever is born of God doth not sin. Perfect seems to be about being "spiritual", to be in the spirit, walking in the spirit. Bible says if we are walking in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We start out as carnal babes but want to grow to be "you who are spiritual"...to be as Jesus was in the world.Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
perfect. In addition to the explanation of this perfection in the Note on Mat_5:20, it may be remarked that it consists chiefly in Love, "the fulfilling of the law" and great likeness to God, as appears from the context, and the parallel Luk_6:36, which see (De Burgh). Gr. teleios [S# G5046: Mat_19:21, Rom_12:2, 1Co_2:6; 1Co_13:10; 1Co_14:20 (men). Eph_4:13, Php_3:15, *Col_1:28; Col_4:12, Heb_5:14 (full age). Heb_9:11, Jas_1:4; Jas_1:17; Jas_1:25; Jas_3:2, 1Jn_4:18]. T285, Mat_19:21; Mat_22:37-39, Gen_6:9; +Gen_17:1, Lev_8:36; *Lev_11:44; +Lev_19:2; *Lev_20:26; Lev_21:21, *>Deu_18:13; Deu_27:10, 1Ki_8:61, +2Ki_20:3, *Job_1:1; *Job_1:8; Job_2:3; Job_9:20-21, +*Psa_37:18 note, Psa_37:37; Psa_119:1 mg. +Pro_21:3 (T629). Pro_23:17, %Ecc_7:16, Son_8:10, Zep_3:13, *Luk_6:36; *Luk_6:40, Joh_17:23, 1Co_2:6; *1Co_10:31; 1Co_14:20 mg. +*2Co_7:1 (T501). *2Co_13:9; *2Co_13:11, Php_2:15; **Php_3:12-15, Col_1:28; *Col_4:12, 1Ti_4:12, Heb_5:14; Heb_6:1; *Heb_13:21, *Jas_1:4; **Jas_3:2, *1Pe_1:15; *1Pe_1:16; *1Pe_5:10, *2Pe_3:11; *2Pe_3:12, 1Jn_3:2, Jud_1:21, Rev_3:2; Rev_14:5.
Just to put it into context for you
Mat 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect. [Lev_19:2, Lev_19:18]
teleios
τέλειος
téleios; fem. teleía, neut. téleion, adj. from télos (G5056), goal, purpose. Finished, that which has reached its end, term, limit; hence, complete, full, wanting in nothing.
(I) Generally (Jas_1:4, Jas_1:17, Jas_1:25; 1Jn_4:18 [cf. Heb_9:11]; Sept.: Exo_12:5). Figuratively, in a moral sense, of persons (Mat_5:48 [cf. Luk_6:36]; Mat_19:21; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jas_1:4; Jas_3:2); the will of God (Rom_12:2; Sept.: Gen_6:9; 1Ki_11:4). When used in a moral sense referring to God's expectation of us, it means completely blameless. A "perfect gift" in Jas_1:17 means one that has all the necessary qualities. In Jas_1:4, "that ye may be perfect" means that you may keep yourself "unspotted from the world." It has a similar meaning in Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21; Rom_12:2; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jas_3:2.
(II) Specifically of persons meaning full age, adulthood, full-grown, of persons, meaning full-grown in mind and understanding (1Co_14:20); in knowledge of the truth (1Co_2:6; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14); in Christian faith and virtue (Eph_4:13). In the neut. tó téleion means the final destination of the believer, that is, heaven (1Co_13:10, as contrasted to the full age in knowledge and understanding in 1Co_13:11). This image of fully completed growth as contrasted with infancy and childhood underlies the ethical use of téleioi, being set over against the babes in Christ (1Co_2:6; 1Co_14:20; Eph_4:13-14; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14).
(III) Téleios can be used in a relative or absolute sense (Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21). God's perfection is absolute; man's is relative. The téleios is one who has attained moral maturity, the goal for which he was intended, namely, to be a man obedient in Christ.
(IV) Tó téleion, perfect, in the neut. means the complete one in contrast with tó ek mérous (ek [G1537], of; mérous [G3313], a part), that which is in part. Tó téleion, therefore, indicates the ultimate goal of heavenly perfection as contrasted with the immediate and merely partial experience of saints on earth (1Co_13:10). In 1Jn_4:18 hēteleía agápē ([G26], love), the perfect love, means the love which is mature, not lacking boldness or confidence and therefore not hampered by the insecurity or anxiety which are characteristic of immature love.
(V) Also generally, it means what is renowned or preeminent (Heb_9:11; Jas_1:25).
Deriv.: teleiótēs (G5047), completeness, perfection; teleióō (G5048), to complete, perfect; teleíōs (G5049), completely, without wavering, to the end.
Syn.: ártios (G739), fitted, complete, perfect; plḗrēs (G4134), complete, full; mestós (G3324), full; ámemptos (G273), irreproachable, blameless; áptaistos (G679), not stumbling, without transgression; holóklēros (G3648), entire, whole.
Téleios is not to be confused with anamártētos (G361), without sin or sinless.
Ant.: endeḗs (G1729), lacking, deficient.
You shall therefore be perfect. This perfection does not mean equality, but relates solely to resemblance. (423) However distant we are from the perfection of God, we are said to be perfect, as he is perfect, when we aim at the same object, which he presents to us in Himself. Should it be thought preferable, we may state it thus. There is no comparison here made between God and us: but the perfection of God means, first, that free and pure kindness, which is not induced by the expectation of gain; — and, secondly, that remarkable goodness, which contends with the malice and ingratitude of men. This appears more clearly from the words of Luke, Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful: for mercy is contrasted with a mercenary regard, which is founded on private advantage.
(423) “Ceste perfection ne signifie pas qu’il y ait une.equalite et mesme mesure, mais elle se rapporte seulement a quelque ressemblance ou ap-proche.” — “That perfection does not mean that there is an equality or thee same measure, but it relates solely to some resemblance or approach.”
Does perfect/teleios mean sinless perfection? Or, God forbid...Godhood?
J.