The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Riven]

Could you explain how the idea which you find more plausible works with Romans 13:1-4?

It doesn't. I find the passages to be contradictory. Jesus himself went against the governing authorities of his day. We also don't need a divine explanation for how human beings end up in positions of authority.

”…you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.”

(1 John 2:18, NIV)

How are the followers of Jesus able to recognize them?

If many antichrists have come and gone already, I think it dulls the significance of the idea of the antichrist. In my experience, most Christians do not have developed critical thinking skills. It's therefore unlikely that they would be able to distinguish Christ from antichrist.

It’s possible for a person to sear his or her conscience.

Do you believe this is what I have done?

 

[Matthias]

It doesn't.

Thanks. I agree with you that it doesn’t.

I find the passages to be contradictory.

I’m beginning to understand now why my appeal to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles hasn’t persuaded you -> you believe Paul is wrong.

In 2 Peter 3:15-16, Peter said that Paul’s writing is sometimes difficult to understand. He also said that Paul’s writing is scripture.

In John 10:35, Jesus said that scripture cannot be broken. This means that Paul’s writing cannot be broken.

To disagree with an apostle is to disagree with the one who sent him -> Jesus.

The apostle is representing Jesus. That immediately establishes that the apostle is right. If / When a follower of Jesus finds himself or herself disagreeing with an apostle, it’s the follower of Jesus, not the apostle, who is mistaken. We must recognize this and seek assistance in order to bring our thoughts into conformance with that of the apostle / Jesus.

Jesus himself went against the governing authorities of his day.

If you’ll give me an example we can discuss it.

We also don't need a divine explanation for how human beings end up in positions of authority.

The apostle thought we do, so I think we do.

If many antichrists have come and gone already….

As John, an apostle, says they have.

… I think it dulls the significance of the idea of the antichrist.

John didn’t.

In my experience, most Christians do not have developed critical thinking skills.

Then most Christians in your experience are in dire need of instruction.

It's therefore unlikely that they would be able to distinguish Christ from antichrist.

Then they are going to be easily deceived by the Antichrist. That’s not what Jesus and the apostles want for followers of Jesus.

Do you believe this is what I have done?

No, I don’t believe that is what you have done.

You’ve said that I’m insane. Another member has told you that I’m dishonest. Do you believe him?

Why are you asking a person whom you believe to be insane, overtaken by madness - and dishonest? - what he thinks you have done? What possible difference could an answer from such a person make to you?

 

[Riven]

To disagree with an apostle is to disagree with the one who sent him -> Jesus.

The apostle is representing Jesus. That immediately establishes that the apostle is right.

I disagree. I do not believe that the apostles are infallible. This is precisely how cults operate. No dissenting opinions are allowed.

Then most Christians in your experience are in dire need of instruction.

They are in dire need of education. Many cannot even tell me how many planets there are in our solar system. But they can tell me how wrong Darwin was about evolution, despite never having read a science textbook in their lives.

No, I don’t believe that is what you have done.

Well what do you believe then? You said you don't understand why I said I felt nothing for the people who's pictures you showed me earlier.

You’ve said that I’m insane. Another member has told you that I’m dishonest. Do you believe him?

No.

Why are you asking a person whom you believe to be insane, overtaken by madness - and dishonest? - what he thinks you have done? What possible difference could an answer from such a person make to you?

Who says it would make any difference? Maybe it won't. But it doesn't hurt to try.

 

[Matthias]

I disagree. I do not believe that the apostles are infallible. This is precisely how cults operate. No dissenting opinions are allowed.

I’m in the cult of the apostles.

Well what do you believe then?

I believe you’re a new Christian and have a lot to learn, as all new Christians do.

 

[Riven]

I’m in the cult of the apostles.

I noticed.

I believe you’re a new Christian and have a lot to learn, as all new Christians do.

Do you believe that Christianity goes against human nature, our natural instincts, etc?

 

[Matthias]

I noticed.

I appreciate that you have.

AI Overview -

“The phrase ‘cult of the apostles’ typically refers to the early Christian movement viewed historically as a persecuted sect or cult in its first century …

Early Christianity as an Ancient Cult

• Roman Perspective: In the Roman Empire, early Christianity centered on the teachings of Jesus and his apostles was frequently viewed as a disruptive, illicit new cult (superstitio) because followers refused to worship Roman civic gods or the emperor.

• Apostolic Foundation: the original apostles formed the core eyewitness network spreading the faith after Jesus’s death, distinguishing themselves through martyrdom and shared communal life rather than political rebellion.”

Do you believe that Christianity goes against human nature, our natural instincts, etc?

2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[Riven]

@Matthias

What's the difference between Ben Wade and Charlie Prince?

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias

What's the difference between Ben Wade and Charlie Prince?

In the end, nothing.

 

[Matthias]

Do you ever listen to or read hymns @Riven? Meditating on them is a good spiritual practice.

A hymn that we sang in church when I was growing up is on my mind as I write this. The title of the hymn is Where He Leads Me. From the hymn -

Where he leads me I will follow,
where he leads me I will follow,
where he leads me I will follow;
I’ll go with him, with him all the way.

Where He Leads Me - HymnSite.com - United Methodist Hymnal #338

Jesus will never lead his followers to go against his word / his teaching / him.

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this morning -

“No matter how mature you are, Christian living is all about the basics:

• Read your Bible regularly
• Talk to God in prayer
• Fight against temptation
• Gather with the saints
• Live in obedience
• Follow Jesus”

Trevor Sheatz (@TrevorSheatz) on X

No matter how mature you are, Christian living is all about the basics: • Read your Bible regularly • Talk to God in prayer • Fight against temptation • Gather with the saints • Live in obedience • Follow Jesus

x.com

 

[Matthias]

He's not a Christian.

A person who goes against the apostles is a person who goes against God and the Messiah.

A course correction is needed. Repentance is course correction effected.

 

[Matthias]

Well what do you believe then?

I believe with the apostles that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Son of the living God.

I’m the bad man turned good out of necessity.

 

[Matthias]

You said you don't understand why I said I felt nothing for the people who's pictures you showed me earlier.

Do you recognize this photograph?



What do you see? What do you feel for the people?