The good news of Gods kingdom

[kjw47]

kjw 47 .... I selected part of your post above in red

I agree Gods kingdom will come at its appointed time

So why doesn't it bother you that Charley Russell and then lawyer Rutherford were completely wrong in all their false teachings that the kingdom had already come ??

They never got one single thing right .

So dont trust your future to them

Just trust Christ. ... He is the only mediator between God and Man

Charley and Brooklyn never have been .... they just trick people into thinking they are.

This is not a complicated thing to figure out.

Its your future

Mr Russell and Rutherford only had error filled translations to go by and they studied history, and every available writing--They made many corrections to false teachings--- Mr Russell also said in 1914--peace will be taken from the earth( years before)--as a result of satan and his demons being cast down--he thought it was Harmageddon coming--because it was the ride of the white horse at rev 6 and Jesus received his crown. but there is a second ride at Harmageddon.
I know 100% for sure the JW,s have it right.
Yes Jesus is the only mediator-- should all of the new ones back then tell the apostles to go away because they were not Jesus? No--Jesus has teachers on earth now. If one isn't being taught by Jesus teachers they are being taught by the great apostasy.

Why do you think there are 33,000 religions claiming Christianity( all say they have the HS, is the HS confused--No--- Men saw something wrong with the prior religion and started a new one, but it was never fixed until C.T.Russell started to fix it.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Kjw,

You seem to have skipped my question. As foolish as it seems to be, it is very important, please answer it. We are not going to have the same old tired JW conversation. If you do not wish to engage in the conversation, please simply state that.

 

[kjw47]

Kjw,

You seem to have skipped my question. As foolish as it seems to be, it is very important, please answer it. We are not going to have the same old tired JW conversation. If you do not wish to engage in the conversation, please simply state that.

What question didn't I answer?

 

[Wormwood]

kjw,

Jesus' statement that the Father is greater than him has to do with roles. Jesus was in the role of a human suffering servant. Yet Jesus also said, "The Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me you have seen the Father." Moreover, Jesus is worshipped many times in the NT which is expressly prohibited for anyone to accept worship but God. People are baptized into the name (singular) of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as commanded by Jesus. I would encourage you to do research in what it meant to be immersed or take on someone's "name" in the ancient world. Also, many of the NT passages that are quoted in reference to Jesus by NT writers are passages that refer to YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures. In Revelation, almost all of the images used to describe Jesus are used to describe God in the OT.

The Scriptural validity of the Triune nature of God is overwhelming. It is also theologically robust. Is God our Savior or is a third party Jesus/Angel-type figure our Savior? Does God alone get the glory or does he have to share it with a created being? I would love to look at verses and concepts in particular with you if you would like kjw. Just start a new thread on the topic. There is nothing contradictory about what Jesus teaches and the historical view of the Trinity. The church has always believed this and has always denounced any form of Arianism or JW teaching...for good reason.

 

[kjw47]

kjw,

Jesus' statement that the Father is greater than him has to do with roles. Jesus was in the role of a human suffering servant. Yet Jesus also said, "The Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me you have seen the Father." Moreover, Jesus is worshipped many times in the NT which is expressly prohibited for anyone to accept worship but God. People are baptized into the name (singular) of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as commanded by Jesus. I would encourage you to do research in what it meant to be immersed or take on someone's "name" in the ancient world. Also, many of the NT passages that are quoted in reference to Jesus by NT writers are passages that refer to YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures. In Revelation, almost all of the images used to describe Jesus are used to describe God in the OT.

The Scriptural validity of the Triune nature of God is overwhelming. It is also theologically robust. Is God our Savior or is a third party Jesus/Angel-type figure our Savior? Does God alone get the glory or does he have to share it with a created being? I would love to look at verses and concepts in particular with you if you would like kjw. Just start a new thread on the topic. There is nothing contradictory about what Jesus teaches and the historical view of the Trinity. The church has always believed this and has always denounced any form of Arianism or JW teaching...for good reason.


The greek to English word proskenaue had 4 different meanings--1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--and 2 others---Usage for the messiah is obeisance not worship--trinity translators used the wrong usage of proskenaue for the messiah--it contradicts Jesus' truths. Same goes for leaving the a out of John 1:1-- to fit Catholicism council teachings.
Nothing contradictory---Jesus teaches--he has a God-his Father-John 20:17,rev 3:12--you would have to teach God has a God with another God over there but they are one.---it is not what Jesus taught or Paul. Centuries ago the great apostasy( foretold) popped up after Jesus, apostles and Christians were all murdered. Centuries ago it was all messed up not just now( except in trinity based religionssssssssssssssss( 1 cor 1:10)-- it has been fixed( Daniel 12:4)

 

[Secondhand Lion]

What question didn't I answer?

Does God contradict Himself, or is it something we do not understand about what He said instead?

 

[Wormwood]

kjw,

You are completely in error. Look up the word in a standard Greek lexicon made by any non-JW source. That word is used 60x in the NT and 52 of the times the ESV translates it as "worship." Its the same word used when Jesus says, "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve" to Satan. You are allowing your theological predispositions to shape your views, not the base understanding of the words themselves.

As for John 1:1, you are way off track. Every Greek scholar from even secular institutions would disagree with you. It's why not one Bible translation other than the NWT translates John 1:1 as "a god." The issue is that the Greek structure has predicate nominative following the copulative. The definite article is absent in such structures to highlight the subject of the sentence and distinguish it from the predicate nominative due to Greek word order in sentences. The context determines whether or not such sentences should be translated as having an indefinite article or not. You are wrong to suggest the lack of the definite article mandates the presence of an indefinite article.

So, according to you, the church was entirely apostate and it took CTR to restore it? Whatever happened to Jesus' declaration that he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it?

No, I would not teach that God has a God, because that is not a Trinitarian view. You keep neglecting the fact that Jesus was fully human. If you really want to have this discussion I suggest you open another post and we can look at particular passages one at a time. These overly-simplified characterizations of the Trinitarian view may work well in JW churches but they aren't going to hold much water outside of the already convinced.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Mr Russell and Rutherford only had error filled translations to go by and they studied history, and every available writing--They made many corrections to false teachings-

You have been completely brainwashed and you have it completely upside down

Most of the bibles have always been in agreement with a couple of minor disputes here and there.

It was the JW organization that started the false rumor that all the translations were wrong

Then the JW organization themselves changed and corrupted the scriptures to fit their false teaching

IT is the JW's who are guilty of producing an error filled bible, nobody else

Furthermore the JW's do not have bible studies anyway .... they have "book studies" ..... religious books produced in Brooklyn to perpetuate the cult.

The intelligent JW's figure that out and leave the JW's to become trinitarian christians

Only the gullible remain in the JW's.

It has always been that way.

 

[kjw47]

You have been completely brainwashed and you have it completely upside down

Most of the bibles have always been in agreement with a couple of minor disputes here and there.

It was the JW organization that started the false rumor that all the translations were wrong

Then the JW organization themselves changed and corrupted the scriptures to fit their false teaching

IT is the JW's who are guilty of producing an error filled bible, nobody else

Furthermore the JW's do not have bible studies anyway .... they have "book studies" ..... religious books produced in Brooklyn to perpetuate the cult.

The intelligent JW's figure that out and leave the JW's to become trinitarian christians

Only the gullible remain in the JW's.

It has always been that way.

You assume wrong--- it is Jesus' truths that expose the trinity translation errors. Not mens thoughts.

kjw,

You are completely in error. Look up the word in a standard Greek lexicon made by any non-JW source. That word is used 60x in the NT and 52 of the times the ESV translates it as "worship." Its the same word used when Jesus says, "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve" to Satan. You are allowing your theological predispositions to shape your views, not the base understanding of the words themselves.

As for John 1:1, you are way off track. Every Greek scholar from even secular institutions would disagree with you. It's why not one Bible translation other than the NWT translates John 1:1 as "a god." The issue is that the Greek structure has predicate nominative following the copulative. The definite article is absent in such structures to highlight the subject of the sentence and distinguish it from the predicate nominative due to Greek word order in sentences. The context determines whether or not such sentences should be translated as having an indefinite article or not. You are wrong to suggest the lack of the definite article mandates the presence of an indefinite article.

So, according to you, the church was entirely apostate and it took CTR to restore it? Whatever happened to Jesus' declaration that he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it?

No, I would not teach that God has a God, because that is not a Trinitarian view. You keep neglecting the fact that Jesus was fully human. If you really want to have this discussion I suggest you open another post and we can look at particular passages one at a time. These overly-simplified characterizations of the Trinitarian view may work well in JW churches but they aren't going to hold much water outside of the already convinced.

All who lived until these last days--died and paid the wages of sin--those who live to see Harmageddon will rely on Jesus sacrifice to bring them through. The truth was concealed until these last days and has now become abundant(Daniel 12:4)
Yes after Jesus, apostles and Christians were all murdered because they said truth--the foretold great apostasy rose up. and split into about 32,999 religions-- all flawed with major errors. ( 1 cor 1:10)

 

[Wormwood]

How convenient that yours is not one of the 32,999 ones in error. Funny thing is that about 2,999 of the 32,999 think they also are the only ones who are right and all the others are apostate with "major errors." CTR was part of a congregational church and broke away from it and was influenced by Adventists. Lets not pretend the JW's fell from heaven with pure doctrine or have some historical ties to early Christianity. It is simply another of many splits from denominational groups which happens to have abandoned core Christian doctrines. So, in reality, the group is simply another breakaway from protestant Christianity..its just the core ideas you base your beliefs on are well outside of Scripture and therefore are rejected entirely by mainstream Christians.

I know your group likes to paint themselves as accurate because they stand apart from all the protestant splits, but the truth is that they derived from just another of these splits that unfortunately have moved too far outside the central teachings of the NT to be recognized by the rest.

 

[kjw47]

How convenient that yours is not one of the 32,999 ones in error. Funny thing is that about 2,999 of the 32,999 think they also are the only ones who are right and all the others are apostate with "major errors." CTR was part of a congregational church and broke away from it and was influenced by Adventists. Lets not pretend the JW's fell from heaven with pure doctrine or have some historical ties to early Christianity. It is simply another of many splits from denominational groups which happens to have abandoned core Christian doctrines. So, in reality, the group is simply another breakaway from protestant Christianity..its just the core ideas you base your beliefs on are well outside of Scripture and therefore are rejected entirely by mainstream Christians.

I know your group likes to paint themselves as accurate because they stand apart from all the protestant splits, but the truth is that they derived from just another of these splits that unfortunately have moved too far outside the central teachings of the NT to be recognized by the rest.

No since Daniel 12:4 clearly teaches some truths were hidden until these last days--- error teachings have been there for centuries, the ones correcting the errors are the ones being directed by Jesus. And will prove to be right in the end. The one that stands alone-- a worldwide brotherhood in love, unity and peace. The only ones I have ever found that teach Jesus' truths. Teaching as Jesus taught back then--to become fishers of men with the good news of Gods kingdom and his king. Our king. being no part of this world as Jesus taught.( no voting, or running for world power positions( politics)--no partaking of the pagan practices that help keep Babylon the great alive in the celebrations of govts and religions. No killing in the wars of hatred, no 1 corinthians 6:9-11, or galations 5:19-21, etc. Satan is the ruler of this world, Jesus taught--even Hollywood,music, etc--violence, immoral sex, the occult-- 3 things God hates and is served off the table of demons.
They hated Jesus, apostles, and Christians enough to murder everyone they could--for doing good and showing love??? No--for telling the world the truth about itself.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

kjw 47 ... how many times did Charles Russell have to change his teachings ?

You would expect him to get it right the first time if he was really running Gods Kingdom

When he began his little cult he assured his brainwashed followers they were the 144,000 end time saints .

Made them feel special .... cults always use the tactics of exclusiveness and specialness to brainwash followers.

Trouble is after a few years the cult had 144,001 members and Charley had a problem

The kingdom was full so he changed the story in order to keep the cult growing ..... he said the 144,000 were the "heavenly bound" people .... and all the other cult members were in Jehovah's kingdom here on earth

Which of course Charley himself was in charge of

Seeing as he had a kingdom to run .... and wanted to keep his subjects under his spell he made a smart move .... he installed printing equipment and got kingdom slaves to devote themselves to printing kingdom books for the kingdom followers.

After all , who needs a bible when you have JW kingdom books to tell you what to do and who you are .

Smart man that Charley Russell .... he convinced his followers they are special and exclusive and he has them captive for life

And continually remind them that everybody else follows some imaginary three headed god

To this day the 3 tactics of a cult are used successfully by the kingdom Charley started in the 1800's

 

[Wormwood]

No since Daniel 12:4 clearly teaches some truths were hidden until these last days--- error teachings have been there for centuries, the ones correcting the errors are the ones being directed by Jesus. And will prove to be right in the end. The one that stands alone-- a worldwide brotherhood in love, unity and peace. The only ones I have ever found that teach Jesus' truths. Teaching as Jesus taught back then--to become fishers of men with the good news of Gods kingdom and his king. Our king. being no part of this world as Jesus taught.( no voting, or running for world power positions( politics)--no partaking of the pagan practices that help keep Babylon the great alive in the celebrations of govts and religions. No killing in the wars of hatred, no 1 corinthians 6:9-11, or galations 5:19-21, etc. Satan is the ruler of this world, Jesus taught--even Hollywood,music, etc--violence, immoral sex, the occult-- 3 things God hates and is served off the table of demons.
They hated Jesus, apostles, and Christians enough to murder everyone they could--for doing good and showing love??? No--for telling the world the truth about itself.

kjw,

You and I both know that these are not the teachings the brand JW's as a cult. There are lots of Christian denominations who embrace all of these concepts you cited. Many Christians choose to opt out of voting, military, politics, promote peace, and abstain from immorality and the occult. Are you suggesting all Christians embrace immorality and the occult and only the JWs do not? Are you suggesting that voting makes someone stained by the wickedness of the world if their vote is an attempt to end the murder of the unborn? Give me a break. You are trying to sidetrack this entire discussion.

Again, if you want to open a thread about issues related to works based salvation and the deity of Jesus Christ, we can explore this "truth" you are proclaiming biblically. The Apostle Paul had no problem exploring the Scriptures with those who wanted to know "truth."

 

[kjw47]

kjw,

You and I both know that these are not the teachings the brand JW's as a cult. There are lots of Christian denominations who embrace all of these concepts you cited. Many Christians choose to opt out of voting, military, politics, promote peace, and abstain from immorality and the occult. Are you suggesting all Christians embrace immorality and the occult and only the JWs do not? Are you suggesting that voting makes someone stained by the wickedness of the world if their vote is an attempt to end the murder of the unborn? Give me a break. You are trying to sidetrack this entire discussion.

Again, if you want to open a thread about issues related to works based salvation and the deity of Jesus Christ, we can explore this "truth" you are proclaiming biblically. The Apostle Paul had no problem exploring the Scriptures with those who wanted to know "truth."

The only real thing that brands a religion as a cult--is they do not serve the God of Abraham, Moses,Daniel, Jesus. The God they serve in reality is satan posing as god to get worship--this has been satans #1 tool-- from generation to generation, from parent to child--false god worship or no god worship. 2 Corinthians 11:12-15--this is how he does it.

 

[Wormwood]

Cult: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous - Merriam-Webster

I don't know what you are talking about above. Again, let me know if you want to discuss issues that you claim to be "truth" yet are so divergent from historic Christianity that they warrant many to classify JWs as a cult.

 

[kjw47]

Cult: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous - Merriam-Webster

I don't know what you are talking about above. Again, let me know if you want to discuss issues that you claim to be "truth" yet are so divergent from historic Christianity that they warrant many to classify JWs as a cult.

The great apostasy rose up after Jesus, apostles and Christians were all murdered--there was no real Christianity until these last days.
Jesus' group was pretty small--must be a cult right--broke off the large main branch of teaching. Merriam Webster--needs to redefine in reality.

 

[Wormwood]

Actually, no. Judaism did not consist of a homogenous group of beliefs. There were all kinds of groups and sects within Judaism. Christianity was viewed as a sect of Judaism by most. However, it is true that Christianity was not Judaism and was a distinct group based on its teachings. Christians are not Jews. So, in this sense there is a lot of similarity. JWs are not Christians. The teachings are so divergent that they are simply a different animal altogether. Moreover, JWs are viewed as a "cult" because Christians view their works based salvation issues, the twisting of the person of Jesus and the continual emphasis to major on minors (i.e. Jesus was crucified on a stake, not a cross) as an identifying mark of groups that seek to draw people away from core truths in order to establish their own following.

Also, I have created a forum to discuss the Scriptural validity of the Trinity. I would invite you to expound on your truths there if they are so apparent.

 

[kjw47]

Actually, no. Judaism did not consist of a homogenous group of beliefs. There were all kinds of groups and sects within Judaism. Christianity was viewed as a sect of Judaism by most. However, it is true that Christianity was not Judaism and was a distinct group based on its teachings. Christians are not Jews. So, in this sense there is a lot of similarity. JWs are not Christians. The teachings are so divergent that they are simply a different animal altogether. Moreover, JWs are viewed as a "cult" because Christians view their works based salvation issues, the twisting of the person of Jesus and the continual emphasis to major on minors (i.e. Jesus was crucified on a stake, not a cross) as an identifying mark of groups that seek to draw people away from core truths in order to establish their own following.

Also, I have created a forum to discuss the Scriptural validity of the Trinity. I would invite you to expound on your truths there if they are so apparent.

JW,s don't have work based salvation--that is a false statement that have many confused about JW,s. The only thing works accomplishes is to build a strong living faith. Reality--the real cult( 32,999) religions of a disunified mass of confusion is the real cult.
They urdered Jesus, apostles and Christians because they told truth as well as the good news of Gods kingdom and appointed king. Truths like pagan additives in the celebrations--false god worship in 99% of all religions on earth. the list goes on--all incorporated centuries ago by the will of satan. Read the bible--99% mislead is a major theme.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I thought Russell / Rutherford said the Kingdom began in 1914.

They had prophesied Jesus would return then too

But when Jesus failed to show up at the appointed time they modified it to say ... "he indeed returned .... it is just that he is invisible"

YEAH RIGHT !!!!!!





.

I think you should consider the scriptures. Like consider what Jesus Christ said to his Apostles and disciples just before he was sacrificed, that the world would not see him no more. His Apostles and disciples would see him but not the world.(John 16:16-20; 14:19) If you search the scriptures you'll find that after Jesus was resurrected at no time did a unbeliever see Jesus. Only Jesus Apostles and disciples saw him. So the fact that Jesus said that the world wouldn't see him no more, let's us know that his second return will be invisible. Christians are suppose to make adjustments in their thinking concerning the scriptures. Sometimes we have to adjust in our thinking when it comes to the scriptures. If anyone tries to tell me they're so perfect that they don't have to make adjustments in their thinking concerning the scriptures, I'm only going to see them as arrogant people who think they're infallible because they think they're so perfect and I don't think any human or group of humans are that perfect.

 

[kcnalp]

I think you should consider the scriptures. Like consider what Jesus Christ said to his Apostles and disciples just before he was sacrificed, that the world would not see him no more. His Apostles and disciples would see him but not the world.(John 16:16-20; 14:19) If you search the scriptures you'll find that after Jesus was resurrected at no time did a unbeliever see Jesus. Only Jesus Apostles and disciples saw him. So the fact that Jesus said that the world wouldn't see him no more, let's us know that his second return will be invisible.

Revelation 1:7 (NKJV)
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.