The Great Apostasy in the Church.

[Earburner]

Nothing in your list forbids a future Millennium either. I love the two judgments one which matches up with Premill because it is understood there are two judgments and two resurrections

The two judgments of God in John 3:18 are:
1. Physically born through Adam only- eternal death, upon physical death.

2. Born again through faith in Jesus- eternal life, upon physical death.

John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[ewq1938]

The two judgments of God in John 3:18 are:
1. Physically born through Adam only- eternal death, upon physical death.

2. Born again through faith in Jesus- eternal life, upon physical death.

The word judgment does not appear in any verse referenced there. Being born is not the same as being throne judged by God.

 

[Earburner]

No one in the Millennium has Adam's dead flesh.

Ahhh,....the theory about the "second chancers".
Please explain how all who took the MoB, will be sin-FREE, whereas you and I are NOT.

This I know, in our condition today, through the shed blood of Christ, we are made to be "sin-LESS", but none of us are "sin-FREE".

That is why this millennium, found in Revelation 20, has not been the last "undefined" 1993 years. Humans are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Hybrid Amil or not, one is still wrong, because those living in the Millennium have been given the first resurrection. The first resurrection is physically leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh and enjoying God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

YES, but ONLY for the saints who WERE born again, ever since Pentecost, and we who are alive and remain at His coming, when Jesus is revealed from heaven, in all His visible Glory and Immortality.
All others, on that Day, will have NO hope of anything from God, because they will be found to be "naked and unclothed", having not the Holy Spirit, and therefore "are none of his".
Let me re-emphasize, ALL the unsaved will have taken the MoB, and will NOT BE GIVEN A second chance!!

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The biblical perspective, by the Holy Spirit's teaching is that ONLY Jesus IS "the FIRSTborn from the dead", and no one else!
What does that mean?
It means that Jesus Himself is The First Resurrection.

So now, the question to be asked is: how is it that you were born again? I mean how is it that you now have the Gift of Eternal Life?
1 John 5
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Could it be that you and many others, are already "blessed", by "having part" in Jesus' Resurrection, who is "the first resurrection" Himself? Yes Indeed, that is exactly how Christians are to understand it. How else do we have Eternal life NOW, while we are waiting for His Glorious return? 1 John 5:12-13,

This verse does not say people keep dying for a thousand years. It says they are given life and live the entire thousand years. They died prior to this thousand years.

After Jesus' Glorious return from heaven, ALL the unsaved, who took the MoB, will be allowed to stay alive for an additional 1000 years? That is not biblical, or by His Spirit in any way!

They were resurrected prior to the thousand years. Satan was bound prior to the thousand years and bound the entire time just the same as those who lived on earth the entire time, never dying again.

Who was resurrected prior to the 1000 years?
1. ALL The saved, since Jesus' resurrection?
2. ALL The unsaved, who rejected/neglected Jesus, since His resurrection?
3. ALL the unsaved, who took the MoB?
4. ALL, of the above?

 

[ewq1938]

After Jesus' Glorious return from heaven, ALL the unsaved, who took the MoB, will be allowed to stay alive for an additional 1000 years? That is not biblical, or by His Spirit in any way!

It is biblical.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

After the ten horned beast kingdom is destroyed, the previous beasts (also kingdoms full of people) will have their lives prolonged. These are unsaved peoples yet they are allowed to remain alive after the destruction of the ten horned beast. This would be a reference to the nations allowed to live past the second coming throughout the full thousand years.

Another passage Amill likes to ignore because they cannot answer why people are allowed to survive past the destruction of the ten horned beast which is understood to happen at the second coming. The bible is Premill.

 

[Earburner]

The word judgment does not appear in any verse referenced there. Being born is not the same as being throne judged by God.

In John 3:18, the words "condemn" and "judgment" are synonymous in the Strongs.

1. Did God remove A&E from the Garden, so that they would not partake of the tree of life, lest they live forever?
Yes! That was God's judgment AGAINST all of the human race.
We all are physically born "condemned ALREADY".

2. Did God resolve that lost opportunity for us to have eternal life?
Yes! We have been given the sacrifice of Jesus, that through faith in Him, we will be given freely, the Gift of Eternal life. That is God's judgment of opportunity FOR "whosoever will" ,to all of the human race.

 

[Earburner]

It is biblical.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

After the ten horned beast kingdom is destroyed, the previous beasts (also kingdoms full of people) will have their lives prolonged. These are unsaved peoples yet they are allowed to remain alive after the destruction of the ten horned beast. This would be a reference to the nations allowed to live past the second coming throughout the full thousand years.

Another passage Amill likes to ignore because they cannot answer why people are allowed to survive past the destruction of the ten horned beast which is understood to happen at the second coming. The bible is Premill.

I could go into great length into the correct interpretation of Daniel 7, but Premil believers are so engulfed and enthralled with their concept through "the wisdom of men", that hardly any would dare to think that all of it came to pass, during the "Age of Indignation", through the saints of Israel, who lived under the OC.

Most are not aware that all of Dan. 7 was fulfilled in the first manifestation of Jesus, right upto the Day of Pentecost (the 2nd manifestation of Jesus), of which we all are still in. Today, we know of it as the "Age of God's Grace", being the NC., through Jesus.

The first grievious error of Premil thinking, is they have neglected to read and study the Jewish historical account of 1&2 Maccabees, and learn who the "little horn" was. His name is Antiochus Epiphanes the 4th.

The second grievious error of Premil interpretation, is that of the prophetic 70 weeks of Daniel, of which were also completely fulfilled in Jesus' first manifestation, which was the 70th week (of 7 years), being fulfilled by Jesus Himself.

 

[Timtofly]

Just for starters, six statements from the KJV make void all of the "dreaming" about a false hope of a future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, to be unsound teaching through "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

1. Luke 17:29- same day.
2. John 3:18- the two judgments of God.
3. Rom. 8:9- he is none of his.
4. 2 Thes. 1:7&10- the word "when".
5. Rev. 13:16- causeth ALL (the unsaved)
6. Rev. 20:15- not found written.

I dare say , if there be a remnant to start over again, on this old earth, for an additional 1000 year, please explain how ALL of them will be they who had taken "the mark of the beast.

You claim John had a dream of Satan being bound for 1,000 years. That is the hope of your dream, as you put it.

It baffles the mind, that you claim there is a Second Coming, but not to earth. Where is the Second Coming to if not to the earth?

Jesus has not been on the earth between the first coming and the second coming. The only point of the Second Coming is so Jesus will be on the earth again. What reason makes you think that Jesus has to leave the earth after the Second Coming?

Has it been the hope of Amil that Jesus never reigns on the earth? Why do you make it sound bad that Jesus will reign on the earth?

 

[Timtofly]

You really don't understand that the Grace of God, and His longsuffering has an end, as it was delivered to the people in Noah's day, the people of Sodom, and then the people of Israel itself, in 70 AD.

KJV Luke 17:28-30, "even THUS" shall it be when the Son shall be revealed from heaven, which is perfectly prophesied about in
KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10, of which is a simultaneous event of destruction of the unsaved, and redemption for all the saved, ALL IN THE "SAME DAY". Luke 17:28-30.

BTW, concerning the 70 weeks, you have completely misconstrued the correct understanding.

Of course there is an end to God's grace.

You claim there is a role reversal, no?

God places a mark on a person, showing that His grace ended. The mark is a visual confirmation to every other living soul, that the individual has been blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Once blotted out, Satan welcomes that individual into his empire to enjoy Satan's economy.

These are not the goats, because the goats were removed from the earth and already in the LOF. Those with the mark have never physically died, yet. They are still very much alive and go through the winepress of God's wrath, then they are physically dead. They certainly don't keep living on earth. The winepress is only for those with the mark. And those without the mark were beheaded, and definitely not still physically walking around without a head.

Do you think the sheep are only those who are beheaded?

Because God's grace ends once one has the mark. As I pointed out the sheep and goats have already physically been removed before God's grace has ended. That would be prior to the 7th Trumpet, the end of Daniel's 70 weeks. After the 7th Trumpet has sounded is when God's grace no longer extends to those still alive on the earth. The only salvation involves chopping one's head off.

 

[Timtofly]

You are not understanding. It is the "MoB" that shall separate the goats from the sheep.
Once it has been implemented and completed, without hesitation and suddenly, God the Father will send His Son to redeem His people. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

During that time, all who "are of the world" will have recieved satan's mark, and all of God's people will have had already received God's Holy Spirit within them. Rom. 8:8-9.
We however, will be culled out for death by those who think that they are doing God service. John 16:2 "....whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Remember, the "mark" that was put on Cain, was so that Cain should NOT be killed intentionally. Gen. 4[15] And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a "mark" upon Cain, LEST any finding him should kill him [intentionally].

Satan will use a similar process for his subtle purpose of "marking" ALL THOSE WHO DO worship ( comply with) the 10H Beast, and his Image (the UN), so that THEY WHO ARE "MARKED", should NOT be killed intentionally, whereas all who DON'T take the "mark" SHOULD BE KILLED [intentionally]!! Rev. 13:15

Way back in Genesis, God set the stage of how it would be satan himself (through the image of the Beast), who was going to bring about the separating of the goats from the sheep.

Quite the role reversal, don't you think??

God does not allow Satan to do anything outside of God's plan. Your scenario of implementation is not suddenly.

This period of Satan's control only happens after the final harvest. It is not something that happens suddenly, as a sign the Second Coming is about to happen.

It is the Second Coming that happens suddenly and without warning.

 

[Timtofly]

It's OK by me if you want to deny scripture.
Rev. 14
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fiire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(^ Please read and "compare" to 2 Thes. 1:7-9).
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

John 3:18 is 2 Cor. 5:10.

John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is NOT condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY, BECAUSE he hath NOT believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2 Cor. 5
[10] For we must ALL [NOW] appear [stand in repentance] before the JUDGMENT seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath DONE, whether it be good* or bad**.

Note: that which is done, or not done in our bodies:
* born again of God's Holy Spirit. Rom. 8:8
** not born again of God's Holy Spirit. Rom. 8:9

2 Corinthians 5:10

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

The "we" are those in Christ. This is not a judgment to condemnation. This is the rewards where the wood, hay, and straw are burned away, leaving only gold, silver, and jewels. People don't go to eternal damnation based on any work good or bad. They receive the second death because they reject God, and always will.

Where is "the living" mentioned in Revelation 20:12-15? Do you consider yourself "the dead" already condemned, or "the living" those that believeth on Him, not condemned?

The dead have always been condemned, in Adam. They receive their sentence before the GWT, the second death. The living have accepted God's grace, the second birth, and do not need to stand in judgment at the GWT. Their sentence, the second death was already expunged at the Cross. That is why many are not condemned, even now.

 

[Earburner]

You claim John had a dream of Satan being bound for 1,000 years. That is the hope of your dream, as you put it.

It baffles the mind, that you claim there is a Second Coming, but not to earth. Where is the Second Coming to if not to the earth?

Jesus has not been on the earth between the first coming and the second coming. The only point of the Second Coming is so Jesus will be on the earth again. What reason makes you think that Jesus has to leave the earth after the Second Coming?

Has it been the hope of Amil that Jesus never reigns on the earth? Why do you make it sound bad that Jesus will reign on the earth?

First, I make no claim about John having a dream! John had a vision, of which did not originate from his own thoughts.
The 1000 years is symbolic of an undisclosed amount of time of God's Grace towards us, by us having faith in Jesus.

On the day of Jesus' death and Resurrection, Satan was bound from entering back into heaven, as well as being bound from entering back into us, who have repented and have received the gift of God's Holy Spirit.

Jesus never comes back onto this old earth, but rather remains in the AIR unto our gathering to Him, in the day of our being changed/resurrected into the likeness of his Immortality in New Life.

Born again Christians, who are abiding in His truth, by His Spirit, do not look for a remodeled old earth, a make over of the old, but rather a New Heavens and a New earth, where-in dwells God's righteousness, which is what "New Creatures" are.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, where-in dwelleth [God's] righteousness.

2 Cor. 4:7 "But we have this treasure [God Himself] in earthen vessels [our bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

God's "new creatures", ARE HIS NEW EARTH, the place in which He permanently NOW indwells, through the "veil" of Jesus' Immortality.
Heb. 10
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

[Earburner]

Has it been the hope of Amil that Jesus never reigns on the earth? Why do you make it sound bad that Jesus will reign on the earth?

We each ARE the New earth in which God the Father desires to INDWELL, Through Jesus (the veil of His flesh), who is himself our New Heaven.
Jesus IS Himself, His Father's house (dwelling place), and we each ARE the many mansions that he is making placements for.

2 Corinthians 5:10

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

The "we" are those in Christ. This is not a judgment to condemnation. This is the rewards where the wood, hay, and straw are burned away, leaving only gold, silver, and jewels. People don't go to eternal damnation based on any work good or bad. They receive the second death because they reject God, and always will.

"The judgment seat of Christ" is clearly shown in John 3:18, and has been 100% operative since Pentecost. Those who in their bodies accept Christ into their life (done good), and those who in their bodies neglect/reject Christ from their life (done bad).
It's all about doing the work of God, which is for us to believe in Him whom He has sent.
Rom. 8:8-9; Luke 13:27; Rev. 3:20.

 

[Gottservant]

The falling away of the Church, is far slower, than men expect.

 

[Earburner]

Where is "the living" mentioned in Revelation 20:12-15? Do you consider yourself "the dead" already condemned, or "the living" those that believeth on Him, not condemned?

The dead have always been condemned, in Adam. They receive their sentence before the GWT, the second death. The living have accepted God's grace, the second birth, and do not need to stand in judgment at the GWT. Their sentence, the second death was already expunged at the Cross. That is why many are not condemned, even now.

As I have said, John 3:18 is Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever* was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

* Note: No man enters into the KoG by their works!!
Rom. 8:9

 

[Earburner]

The falling away of the Church, is far slower, than men expect.

Sorry, it's not the "Church", but rather "faith" that people are falling away from.
Church-ianity saves no one.

 

[Gottservant]

Sorry, it's not the "Church", but rather "faith" that people are falling away from.
Church-ianity saves no one.

Faith doesn't fall away, it remains "faith".

Our belonging is our choice, that's why when we fall away, we fall away from belonging (to the Church).

You don't seem to understand that it is our identifying with the Church (by which we make our "belonging" a fact) that is tested?

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, it's not the "Church", but rather "faith" that people are falling away from.
Church-ianity saves no one.

Faith is not something. Faith is the absence of evidence. Faith is a firm trust in God with literally nothing to show for one's Faith.

Obedience is good works, or whatever God tells you to do. God told Noah to build an ark. The ark was not Faith. The ark was the result of obedience. Faith was realized when the rain started and they were safe when every one else drowned. But Faith is different for each individual, because each individual fits into God's plan in a personal way.

What people fall away from is constant obedience. They stop trusting when there are no results to that trust.

Many stop trusting God's Word, and come up with their own theology. Then others come along and decide that man made theology sounds better that God's difficult Word.

 

[Earburner]

Faith doesn't fall away, it remains "faith".

Our belonging is our choice, that's why when we fall away, we fall away from belonging (to the Church).
Share
You don't seem to understand that it is our identifying with the Church (by which we make our "belonging" a fact) that is tested?

This constitutes a church:
Mat. 18
[20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Therefore, if only two Christians share the word and the Love of God between them, they are a "church", with Jesus in their midst.

But, if only two, and one loses faith, there is no "church", even if it is only between two.
So then, does that mean Jesus is now no longer with the one who still has faith?
Of course not!

 

[Earburner]

Faith is not something. Faith is the absence of evidence. Faith is a firm trust in God with literally nothing to show for one's Faith.

Obedience is good works, or whatever God tells you to do. God told Noah to build an ark. The ark was not Faith. The ark was the result of obedience. Faith was realized when the rain started and they were safe when every one else drowned. But Faith is different for each individual, because each individual fits into God's plan in a personal way.

What people fall away from is constant obedience. They stop trusting when there are no results to that trust.

Many stop trusting God's Word, and come up with their own theology. Then others come along and decide that man made theology sounds better that God's difficult Word.

Heb. 11
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

There will be a falling away [from faith] first, whereby many will stop believing that God is.....

 

[Timtofly]

Heb. 11
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

There will be a falling away [from faith] first, whereby many will stop believing that God is.....

You did not quote the verse about faith.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."