The greek work telios!
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Maybe it would help you to think of this gifts with an anology of building a House To make the foundation strong and hold the house you need certain materials and workers with a certain set of skills to make this foundation sturdythis is like the Apostels starting the church they need certain tools(gifts) to make a firm foundation.Then we have the framing and the builing of the strucure upon the foundationThis takes different materials, workers with a differnt set of skillsThe gifts that were needed here were differnt than those need to build the foundationThis could be compared to the inspired work of putting the Bible togetherSpreading the word to the WorldNow the house is built we need a different materials and a differnt kind of Workers to maintain the house and keep it in good orderWe are given the gifts we need to do this they are not the same as the earlier giftsas they are no longer required, We are no longer just a few who need supernatural gifts to convince the World God is realWe are millions We have our own natural gifts whether they be teaching, Wisdom,faith,charity, each of us has our own natural gift given us by GodWe need these to maintain the house(church)What does it say for the shape of a Christain whose Faith is so small they must seethe supernatural to believe?We are supposed to have matured in our faith to the point we understand that ALL comes from God Yet that does not seem to be good enough these days we have to run flocking to someone who says they are a healer because they touch someones head and they fall on the floor If one claims to be healer and have this gift I say he should be able to drink poison and not die. We have those that murmur in untelligable words and say its from God If so let them speak it loudly and all should understand what is being saidIf one claims to have the Wisdom of Solomen Then let him stand up and solve the Worlds problemsNo we do have supernatural gifts in this stage of the house (church) We have the natural gifts multiplied by millions of Christ followers lets spend more time thanking him for the gifts he gave each and everyone of us rather hunting for the supernatural gifts he ended.when they had served their purposeIn my opinion if you gotta have supernatural proof of Gods existence you are in trouble you are in danger a beingfooled by familiar spirits or you will fall prey to Antichrists cheap tricks because believe me he will be performing miracles and supernatural feasts to convince the world he is is christ. So if its supernatural you are looking for you are going to soon have all you want.__________________
(setfree;31063)
Why would God give the church great gifts to edify, comfort etc. and then stop speaking to them in the same ways? The God I serve is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. His written word will come to pass! You can not add or take away from that fact. How we interpret it, or how we believe it, is the what satan thrives on.
The gifts were a way for the message of the good news to spread out into the entire world before ther was a Bible as we know it. Now we are told to trust in His Word, and it is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16)
The gifts are still here! The Holy Spirit is still Here!
Yes He is here, but His primary purpose is to sanctify your heart and reconcile you to God so that you may become his child and an heir to His Kingdom.
If tongues is what you say (foreign languages) and it was to help spread the gospel. Why would God take that away today? Why do our missionaries have to learn a language? You can not have it both ways.
What I said was if you are able to speak to people in their native languages that's great, but I haven't seen anyone with this gift. The fact that missionaries have to learn languages before they go is proof that tongues has ceased.
If you believe the gifts are here, tongues are here!If you believe they are not, then we do not have knowledge, prophesy, foreign languages (that does not have to be taught)etc.
I believe these things have ceased when the scriptures were completed, but would be open to a different interpretation of "completed" if I saw any good fruit coming from those who claim they have them, but in my experience I have only seen a lot of babbling and false prophecies. As far as i can tell no one has legitimately had these gifts since the days of the apostles but would be open to correction if someone could prove otherwise with real tongues (languages) or prophecies that actually come to pass when and how they were given.SealedEternal
Why would God give the church great gifts to edify, comfort etc. and then stop speaking to them in the same ways? The God I serve is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. His written word will come to pass! You can not add or take away from that fact. How we interpret it, or how we believe it, is the what satan thrives on.
The gifts were a way for the message of the good news to spread out into the entire world before ther was a Bible as we know it. Now we are told to trust in His Word, and it is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16)
The gifts are still here! The Holy Spirit is still Here!
Yes He is here, but His primary purpose is to sanctify your heart and reconcile you to God so that you may become his child and an heir to His Kingdom.
If tongues is what you say (foreign languages) and it was to help spread the gospel. Why would God take that away today? Why do our missionaries have to learn a language? You can not have it both ways.
What I said was if you are able to speak to people in their native languages that's great, but I haven't seen anyone with this gift. The fact that missionaries have to learn languages before they go is proof that tongues has ceased.
If you believe the gifts are here, tongues are here!If you believe they are not, then we do not have knowledge, prophesy, foreign languages (that does not have to be taught)etc.
I believe these things have ceased when the scriptures were completed, but would be open to a different interpretation of "completed" if I saw any good fruit coming from those who claim they have them, but in my experience I have only seen a lot of babbling and false prophecies. As far as i can tell no one has legitimately had these gifts since the days of the apostles but would be open to correction if someone could prove otherwise with real tongues (languages) or prophecies that actually come to pass when and how they were given.SealedEternal
It is funny that nobody wants to believe in the gifts unless they experience them, or see someone that they approve of, that is doing it right. You can not disclaim what the word says by anyone doing it wrong. There are a lot of people out there claiming to be saved by the grace of God and they are not living like they should. So do we say salvation is not in the Bible?
Its funny people that do belive do not have any proof murming unintellagable words was never a gift IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE God heals everyday and we need do nothing but check a newspaper and we can see God at work but you show me one minister that claims to heal lets see exrays lets see proof bedsides someone falling on the floor. If we have so many healers why arent they standing in an emercengy room instead of on a pulpit with their hand out.God grants us all gifts some have wisdom,some can teach, some can heal anothers spirit, some just spread happieness, some are charitable but NO ONE HAS THE SUPERNATRUAL GIFTS OF THE ASPOSTLES mentioned in Acts and MarkIf one thinks murmuring is a gift I ask Have you to tried ordering all evil spirits get away from you in the name of Jesus Christ ask God if its not from him to help you get rid of it The trick is you gotta really want it to go away with all your heart if you cant do that because you are afraid you might lose your murming ability then its not from God
Again Kriss,We will never agree on this subject. I never said speaking in tongues was babble. But you can not say that praying in tongues(language unlearned) in not a language. I recognize only three languages when I hear them, all the rest sound like babble to me. Even the ones I recognize is babble because I do no understand what they are saying(but they are still languages). You still have not explained to me that when we pray(speak to God) in verse 2, we are not speaking to men. When does this happen? He is not condeming tongues, just that they are not used proper IN THE CHURCH. He also says as he is praying in this language that no one can understand-the spirit is speaking. Also in Acts they were not speaking to men but to God, men understood in there own language. This is a one time happening, that I see in the Bible that the others understood. No where else when tongues are mentioned does it say that they understood what they were saying,(the ones praying or the ones listening). But tongues are mentioned through out the new testament.Even if we do not agree on the tongues, the other gifts are given by the Holy Spirit. Therefore you have to be saved to receive them. You can not manifest any of these gifts without the Holy Spirit! They are a supernatural manifestation. All have some knowledge even of scripture, but not all (saved and unsaved) have a WORD of knowledge. There is a difference!
Your right we will never agree I don't think you want to understand what it says you want to see what you what you want it to say Not what it says. We are never told to murmur to GodYour verse #2 I have explained over and over but its not what you wanna hearso you are blind to it. It simply says If you are speaking English to a Greek audienceGod will understand you (he understands all Languages) but the people wonttherefore you are just edifying yourself not your audience edify here is not nessarily in a positive context When does God say I want to take care of #1 before anyone else? Tell me what are you saying to God ??If you do not know what purpose is it ?If murmuring is from a spirit how do you know you are not cursing God?And you are misunderstanding Acts God was speaking through the ApostlesTo those gathered there were like 13 different Languages in the Audience and all heard the same ,message at the same time in their own Language. again no murmuringThey were not talking to God ..........God was speaking to themAnd afterwards they found they could speak and understand each others foreign Languages. Every instance of tongue in this form is translated a Language of other Nations(natrual languages) This gift of speaking and understaning forgein Laguages does not exsit today it that form IT WAS NEVER REPLACED WITH MURMURING You refuse to believe any thing that does not say what you want it too this is not how the Word is to read. Your murmuring did not exsist until 1800 and then many that started it condemed it later as Evil.In church verse is saying the same as the restHe is condemning speaking foreign Languages in church because without understanding No one can hear his word so he says you need an interpreter so they can understand youAgain you are seeing what you want none of this is about MurmuringI guess theres no point going back and forth on this it does not say what you want it to say. What possable reason would I have for telling you this if thats not what it saysIf it spoke of an unknown language I would be teaching it.
What you call murmuring I call language. You can not prove speaking in tongues is not a language unless you know every language in the world.
(setfree;31225)
Even if we do not agree on the tongues, the other gifts are given by the Holy Spirit. Therefore you have to be saved to receive them. You can not manifest any of these gifts without the Holy Spirit! They are a supernatural manifestation. All have some knowledge even of scripture, but not all (saved and unsaved) have a WORD of knowledge. There is a difference!
Do you agree that the gifts are supernatural(can not manifest without Holy Spirit)? I guess by your earlier post you do not believe supernatural just the natural. So you say the gifts have ended as recorded in Acts? Where is the scripture, if you believe telios is complete of this age, do they cease as recorded?
Even if we do not agree on the tongues, the other gifts are given by the Holy Spirit. Therefore you have to be saved to receive them. You can not manifest any of these gifts without the Holy Spirit! They are a supernatural manifestation. All have some knowledge even of scripture, but not all (saved and unsaved) have a WORD of knowledge. There is a difference!
Do you agree that the gifts are supernatural(can not manifest without Holy Spirit)? I guess by your earlier post you do not believe supernatural just the natural. So you say the gifts have ended as recorded in Acts? Where is the scripture, if you believe telios is complete of this age, do they cease as recorded?
(setfree;31235)
What you call murmuring I call language. You can not prove speaking in tongues is not a language unless you know every language in the world.
Call it what you like it isnt in Gods word Nor did he ever say to pray to him what you do not understandin fact if there was somekind of strange language we were supposed to pray in dont ya think someone would have mentioned it and I dont count a mens lack to understand Paul said as proof. Why didnt Peter,John, James or for that matter Christ himself ever mention it?? No all you have is a lie of men started in 1800 Let me ask what do you think the consequences are if you are talking some murmurs from some unknownspirit in your prayers to God?
What you call murmuring I call language. You can not prove speaking in tongues is not a language unless you know every language in the world.
Call it what you like it isnt in Gods word Nor did he ever say to pray to him what you do not understandin fact if there was somekind of strange language we were supposed to pray in dont ya think someone would have mentioned it and I dont count a mens lack to understand Paul said as proof. Why didnt Peter,John, James or for that matter Christ himself ever mention it?? No all you have is a lie of men started in 1800 Let me ask what do you think the consequences are if you are talking some murmurs from some unknownspirit in your prayers to God?
(setfree;31241)
Do you agree that the gifts are supernatural(can not manifest without Holy Spirit)? I guess by your earlier post you do not believe supernatural just the natural. So you say the gifts have ended as recorded in Acts? Where is the scripture, if you believe telios is complete of this age, do they cease as recorded?
As I said I believe they change for the differnt times and needs of God in this time we all have a gift. I agree with Sealed here you show me proof of any gift that is the super natural gifts as explained in Mark show me a person who speaks and all languages understand show me a healer that can drink poison and not die show me someone who has the Wisdom of Solomonthey do not exist therefore it is not I that says the supernatural gifts have ceased it is fact.Instead God enhances each person's natrural gift whatever that maybe.
Do you agree that the gifts are supernatural(can not manifest without Holy Spirit)? I guess by your earlier post you do not believe supernatural just the natural. So you say the gifts have ended as recorded in Acts? Where is the scripture, if you believe telios is complete of this age, do they cease as recorded?
As I said I believe they change for the differnt times and needs of God in this time we all have a gift. I agree with Sealed here you show me proof of any gift that is the super natural gifts as explained in Mark show me a person who speaks and all languages understand show me a healer that can drink poison and not die show me someone who has the Wisdom of Solomonthey do not exist therefore it is not I that says the supernatural gifts have ceased it is fact.Instead God enhances each person's natrural gift whatever that maybe.
According to the Greek, "Telios" Means, "when the perfect one [Jesus] brings in the compleation of the age" . Then we shall know as we are known.some people say, "That which is perfect" is the word of God, To says tongues and prophecy have ceaced, But if tongues and prophecy has ceaced, so has knowledge. I don't know about you but I am still learning through the knowledge of God's word, The Bible says, "Knowledge shall increase in the last days", both Biblical and worldly knowledge has increased, so we must be in the last days.
The Greek word for "Talios" means, "The perfect one [Jesus] brings in the compleation on the age".That is when we shall know as we are known, Some people say "When that which is perfect comes " means The Bible. To agree with their belief that tongues and prophecy have been done away. But if they have, then so has knowledge, I don:t know about you, but I am still learning truths from God's word. The Bible says "knowledge shall increase in the last days". so if we still have knowledge then we still have tongues and prophecy.
(Terral;25451)
Hi Setfree:The Holy Text is written to be interpreted over 2000 different ways, so God’s children see “the truth” and the sons of disobedience see something else. :0) The believers in our gospel had no completed Bible in 59 AD, so God bridged the gap using the temporary sign gifts of Prophecy, Knowledge and Tongues to level the playing field. Try to realize the truth that every member of Christ’s body is in competition like a race (1 Corinthians 9:24-26) for heavenly positions under Christ as the Head (Ephesians 1:22 , Colossians 1:18) and ‘you’ have God’s completed Text sitting finished right before your eyes. Should God give you this luxury and shortchange those living in 59 AD? Never! Every member of Christ’s body shall stand alone at the Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10) in the knowledge that everyone had the same opportunities to absorb, grow in and defend ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word, OR to fold their hands in slumber and replace good works with bad ones of the flesh. Those among us ‘rightly dividing’ (2 Timothy 2:15) the word of truth accurately will receive the greatest rewards at our Judgment, when those among us ‘wrongly dividing’ everything will suffer great loss to have their rewards handed to another. :0) The Apostle Paul describes three sign gifts that are “done away” (prophecy, knowledge, tongues) and three that remain (faith, hope, love), by using an analogy between being a child and a mature man. The first thing to realize in gathering ‘the truth’ from Paul’s teaching is that a mirror in Paul’s day was a piece of polished metal resembling what you would see today in a house of mirrors; very distorted compared to our mirrors of today. One reason God uses specific terms in these examples is because Scripture is teaching MANY things to the members of Christ’s body on a myriad of different levels of learning and stages of development. The man of ‘faith’ reads these chapters one way, while the man of knowledge is absorbing the deeper things and the man of wisdom even deeper things indeed. God is teaching His children of faith that the sign gifts of 2000 year ago represent the ‘partial’ and ‘temporary’ condition, because Paul’s Prison Epistles containing “The Mystery” (Ephesians 3:3 , Colossians 1:26) represent just parts of the ‘perfect’ still unwritten and beyond the reach of anyone including Paul. The man of knowledge is being taught that our current dispensation of God’s grace (Ephesians 3:2) is a mystery time, when we know in part, because the reality of “Prophecy” gives us clues into our blurry mirror where we see things distorted from our current “blood witness” perspective. In other words, the antichrist is coming ‘literally’ (face to face) at the END of the age (Matthew 24:15), but he is here even now in the “mystery of iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7) in a “body of sin” in the exact same way ‘we’ represent the “body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12). The ‘mystery of iniquity’ is the antithesis doctrine to the “mystery of Christ” (Ephesians 3:4 Colossians 4:3), which you can understand by learning all about the latter (mystery of Christ) and holding Scripture up as a mirror to see the ‘inverse.’
We can use this diagram to explain Paul’s use of the “mirror dimly” (Mystery) and “face to face” (Prophecy) analogies in Scripture, by realizing the blood witness aspects of the Pauline Epistles (in red) ‘mirror’ events that will take place during the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord. The antichrist appears today to stand in the “Holy Place” of men’s souls in the very way he stands in the Holy Place over in the 1000 Years Day of the Lord (Matthew 24:15), but today he comes SPIRITUALLY to many members; just like “Christ in you” (Colossians 1:27) is a reality for everyone believing our gospel. The man of wisdom (Revelation 13:18) knows the 666 antithesis ‘man’ opposing New Jerusalem bears the same ‘triune’ image of Christ Jesus (F+S+HS), but on the opposite side of the equation like this:
In short, God is teaching the members of Christ’s body about the ‘antithesis’ Satan, Beast, False Prophet Heavenly “man” using every word about “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) the “one Mediator” standing between God and Men also as a Living Triune “Man” with a spirit (Father), Soul (Son) and Body (Holy Spirit). Therefore, the ‘perfect’ coming is Scripture itself to the ‘man of faith’ reading Paul’s words literally in this Corinthian Epistle, while the man of knowledge recognizes the patterns within God’s Living Word and realizes ‘the perfect’ is also a reference to comparisons between the ‘blood witness’ (Pauline Epistles) and ‘water witness’ (Kingdom Epistles) components of the Mystery versus Prophecy. Your soul ‘mirrors’ your physical body in the same exact ‘blood witness’ (soul) and water witness (body) relationship, but the soul part is seen like ‘in a mirror dimly,’ while the physical body you see ‘face to face.’ Therefore (if you are able to follow along), God is teaching MANY things to many members of Christ’s body on many different levels of understanding and spiritual growth in every single line of Scripture, as your spiritual eyes develop through the man of faith, knowledge and wisdom stages of development. Many of my sayings will fly above your head, because my posts are also drafted using God’s three tiered faith, knowledge and wisdom format, which means my true brothers and sisters IN Christ Jesus will continue gathering more and more from my work with each reading. After all, “Christ in me” (Colossians 1:27) has been enlarging within my soul (heaven in me) with “God IN Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:19) for a very long time, which means I have a head start and “these things” (2 Peter 3:14-16) have had plenty of time to mature into a massive garden within my own being. This also means that all I have is seeds (the same as everyone) and God must cause the growth (1 Corinthians 3:6-7), which can take forever or a short amount of time; depending on you. :0)In Christ Jesus,Terral
wooh Terral, where can one learn more of your understandings so to better understand the charts?
Hi Setfree:The Holy Text is written to be interpreted over 2000 different ways, so God’s children see “the truth” and the sons of disobedience see something else. :0) The believers in our gospel had no completed Bible in 59 AD, so God bridged the gap using the temporary sign gifts of Prophecy, Knowledge and Tongues to level the playing field. Try to realize the truth that every member of Christ’s body is in competition like a race (1 Corinthians 9:24-26) for heavenly positions under Christ as the Head (Ephesians 1:22 , Colossians 1:18) and ‘you’ have God’s completed Text sitting finished right before your eyes. Should God give you this luxury and shortchange those living in 59 AD? Never! Every member of Christ’s body shall stand alone at the Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10) in the knowledge that everyone had the same opportunities to absorb, grow in and defend ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word, OR to fold their hands in slumber and replace good works with bad ones of the flesh. Those among us ‘rightly dividing’ (2 Timothy 2:15) the word of truth accurately will receive the greatest rewards at our Judgment, when those among us ‘wrongly dividing’ everything will suffer great loss to have their rewards handed to another. :0) The Apostle Paul describes three sign gifts that are “done away” (prophecy, knowledge, tongues) and three that remain (faith, hope, love), by using an analogy between being a child and a mature man. The first thing to realize in gathering ‘the truth’ from Paul’s teaching is that a mirror in Paul’s day was a piece of polished metal resembling what you would see today in a house of mirrors; very distorted compared to our mirrors of today. One reason God uses specific terms in these examples is because Scripture is teaching MANY things to the members of Christ’s body on a myriad of different levels of learning and stages of development. The man of ‘faith’ reads these chapters one way, while the man of knowledge is absorbing the deeper things and the man of wisdom even deeper things indeed. God is teaching His children of faith that the sign gifts of 2000 year ago represent the ‘partial’ and ‘temporary’ condition, because Paul’s Prison Epistles containing “The Mystery” (Ephesians 3:3 , Colossians 1:26) represent just parts of the ‘perfect’ still unwritten and beyond the reach of anyone including Paul. The man of knowledge is being taught that our current dispensation of God’s grace (Ephesians 3:2) is a mystery time, when we know in part, because the reality of “Prophecy” gives us clues into our blurry mirror where we see things distorted from our current “blood witness” perspective. In other words, the antichrist is coming ‘literally’ (face to face) at the END of the age (Matthew 24:15), but he is here even now in the “mystery of iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7) in a “body of sin” in the exact same way ‘we’ represent the “body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12). The ‘mystery of iniquity’ is the antithesis doctrine to the “mystery of Christ” (Ephesians 3:4 Colossians 4:3), which you can understand by learning all about the latter (mystery of Christ) and holding Scripture up as a mirror to see the ‘inverse.’
wooh Terral, where can one learn more of your understandings so to better understand the charts?
oohhh.. I wondered why account disabled. Ahh well, if the Lord wants me to understand something, he will send it my way.
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