1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Holy Trinity

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Boston, Oct 19, 2009.

  1. Boston

    Boston New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Considering the fact that there are three Persons in the One Divine Being is so clearly revealed in the Word of God that it cannot be contradicted, it is evident in both the Old and New Testaments:Question,Whats roles do each members of the Trinity play in salvation?
     
  2. elmoisme99

    elmoisme99 New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would like to clarify the topic of the holy trinityfirst of all Im sure you've read that Jesus said "I am in him and he is in me.Wouln't that make him God? And haven''t you read that Jesus said "when I leave I will send the Holy Spirit (comforter) and who is the holy spirit if he is not God which is Jesus.haven't you read in the Word that "Jesus it the Father"and yet you ask how could Jesus talk from the sky and be on earth at the same time?As carnal minded people we can't understandbut spiritually...Think about how Jesus could understand what the pharasees and everyone were thinking. As a mere human is that possible?Think about all the miricles he did and also walking on the water, calming the seacould a mere human do such things?Could the Holy spirit be an angel.of course not!The concept of the Holy Trinity suggests that God is 3 peopleyet if Jesus were not God...and merely his son...then that would mean the holy spirit is neither God nor Jesus but a entity of his ownthis is not possible!When you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior, and when you receve the holy spirit into your heart you are recieving Jesus into your heart which is to say God is living in you, and as such..."Greater is he that is within you than he that is in the world.and finally to explain God talking from the sky which Jesus on the EarthJesus, being God, can do all things, and if you don't think so, then Jesus couldn't have done miricles of God which was in him...and he in God.God is one person...Jesus...and there is no greater a name than Jesusand to understand that Jesus is God and Jesus is the holy spirit. you must not think carnally but spiritually.
     
  3. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    137
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
  4. Boston

    Boston New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    [quote name='elmoisme99;73811]I would like to clarify the topic of the holy trinityfirst of all Im sure you've read that Jesus said "I am in him and he is in me.Wouln't that make him God? And haven''t you read that Jesus said "when I leave I will send the Holy Spirit (comforter) and who is the holy spirit if he is not God which is Jesus.haven't you read in the Word that "Jesus it the Father"and yet you ask how could Jesus talk from the sky and be on earth at the same time?As carnal minded people we can't understandbut spiritually...Think about how Jesus could understand what the pharasees and everyone were thinking. As a mere human is that possible?Think about all the miricles he did and also walking on the water' date=' calming the seacould a mere human do such things?Could the Holy spirit be an angel.of course not!The concept of the Holy Trinity suggests that God is 3 people[/QUOTE']It does? I disagree. That is the carnal mind looking at and trying to figure out things of the spiritual realm.
    Your reasoning is un-reasonable.
    Does Jesus come into you in His flesh? Are you a "oneness Pentecostal?"
    Scripture teaches One God, in three persons. Figure that spiritually or carnally.
     
  5. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    8
    [edit] Scriptures cited as being in opposition to the TrinityAmong Bible verses cited by opponents of Trinitarianism are those that claim there is only one God, the Father. Other verses state that Jesus Christ was a man. Although Trinitarians explain these apparent contradictions by reference to the mystery and paradox of the Trinity itself, some nontrinitarians argue that there is little, if any, Biblical basis for the Trinity. This is a partial list of verses implying opposition to Trinitarianism:[edit] One God
    • Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
    • John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
    • 1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
    • 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
    • James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
    • John 14:28: “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’t If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
    [edit] Son and Father
    • Mark 13:32: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
    • John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
    • John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
    • John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
    • John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
    • Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
    • Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
    • Corinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
    • Revelation 3:14: "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:"
    [edit] Holy spirit as Gift of holy spirit
    • John 7:39: "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
    • John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; "
    • John 14:26: "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
    • John 15:26: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
    • John 16:7: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
    • Acts 2:17-18: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: "
    • Acts 2:38:"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    • Acts 10:45: "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    • Romans 8:15: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
    • 1 Corinthians 2:12: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
    • Galatians 3:2: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
    • Galatians 3:14: "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
    • Galatians 4:6: "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
    • Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
    • 1 John 3:24: "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."
    • 1 John 4:13: "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."
    • 1 Thessalonians 4:8: "He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."
    [edit] Old Testament
    • Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    • Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    • Judges 3:15: But when the people of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud, the son of Gera. The same Hebrew word is used both to translate "savior" and "deliverer". If God is the only true savior, as is Jesus, according to the Trinity doctrine, then the term "savior" or "deliverer" could not apply to anyone else. This would then imply a contradiction to the Trinity doctrine or imply that Jesus had been sent to Earth prior to events in the new testament.
    [edit] Ontological differences
     
  6. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Where in the Bible is it stated as "fact" of "three Persons in One Divine Being...so clearly revealed" ?
     
  7. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    What is the origin of the trinity ? The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense, this is true....The formulation ' one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimulated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century."(1967, Vol. 14, pg 299)

    The Encyclopedia Britannica says that "the Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed...the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ' of one substance with the Father.'...Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."(1970, Vol 6, pg 386)

    What does the Bible say ? At Acts 7:56, 57, it reads: "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand. ' Look ! I can see heaven thrown open, ' he said, ' and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God."(The New Jerusalem Bible)

    What did this vision reveal ? Filled with God's active force, the holy spirit, Stephen saw Jesus "standing at God's right hand." Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being. There is no mention of a third person next to God in this account. Despite attempts to find passages of Scripture to support the Trinity dogma, Dominican priest Marie-Emile Boismard wrote in his book À l’aube du christianisme—La naissance des dogmes (At the Dawn of Christianity—The Birth of Dogmas): “The statement that there are three persons in the one God . . . cannot be read anywhere in the New Testament.”
     
  8. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    13
    I really do not care but you have made a statement here that cannot be backed up with God's Word.

    You said: "three Persons in the One Divine Being". Show me this in Scripture? If you cannot prove the three persons and seeing the whole doctrine of the trinity is based on this statement, where is your trinity? There is none. God is one not three persons.



     
    Miss Hepburn likes this.
  9. rob

    rob New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    2
    What roles do each member of the Trinity play in Salvation?


    Ephesians chapters 1 to 6,

    Chapter 1 unveils that God the Father chose and predestinated, God the Son redeemed, and God the Spirit is sealing and pledging in order to impart Himself as life into the believers to form the church, which is the Body of Christ.

    Chapter 2 shows that the Father's dispensing produces the church as His masterpiece, the Son's dispensing produces the new man, and the Spirit brings us to the Father in one Body.

    In chapter 3 the apostle prays that God the Father would grant us to be strengthened through God the Spirit into our inner man so that God the Son can make His home in our hearts, that we might be filled with all the fullness of God.

    Chapter 4 portrays that the processed God as the Spirit, the Lord, and the Father is mingled with the Body of Christ so that all the members of the Body may experience the Divine Trinity.

    Chapter 5 exhorts us to praise God the Son with the songs of God the Spirit and to give thanks to God the father. This is to praise and thank the processed God in His Divine Trinity for our enjoyment of Him, which constitutes us to be children of God who walk in love and light.

    Chapter 6 instructs us to fight the spiritual warfare by being empowered in God the Son, putting on the whole armour of God the Father, and wielding the sword of the Spirit.

    The Triune God became a man ---- Incarnation
    As the Son of man Christ lived a perfect human life
    Christ gave His precious life, (He died to redeem us)
    Christ Resurrected from the dead for our justification
    Christ ascended to the Father, and returned as the Life-giving-Spirit (comforter)

    The Life-giving-spirit brings the Triune God into man with all that which He accomplished in the process.

    By this wonderful Spirit dwelling in us we are being constituted with God’s life and nature, and are being conformed to His Image as we enjoy Him daily.

    We need God to live within us that we may be His very expression and His very representation.
     
  10. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    If Jesus is God, and not "a god", then this conflicts with what the apostle Paul wrote, for he told the Ephesian congregation: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:....That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:"(Eph 1:3, 17, King James Bible) Could Jesus be spoken of as having a God and Father if indeed he is God ? Even an elementary school student can read this and correctly deduce that Jesus has both a God and a Father. So why have many adults been unable to see that the Bible never has presented Jesus as God, but only as a subservient one to God, even being called "my servant" at Matthew 12:18 and in which Matthew quoted from Isaiah 42:1.

    In addition, if Jesus is also God the Creator, then all things should be spoken of as "his" or "mine" or "ours". However, at Matthew 5:45, Jesus said to the audience that they should "prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous." Why would Jesus speak of the sun as his Father's sun, instead of "our sun" if he is God ? And why did Jesus speak of the temple as "house of my Father" instead of "our house" if he is God as many contend ?(John 2:16)
     
    truthquest likes this.
  11. rob

    rob New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    2
    Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

    "...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
    --MATTHEW 1:23
    "...if ye believe not that I am he,
    ye shall die in your sins."
    --JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24


    Proofs from the word of God,
    The Authorized King James Bible of 1611


    God Jesus
    God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
    God is the only Saviour. "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11 To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12 God our Saviour. Titus 2:10 ...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10 God my Saviour. Luke 1:47 Jesus is the only Saviour. ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14 ...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18 ...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1 ...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4 a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11 Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12 ...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. --2 Timothy 2:10 ...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings. -- Heb 2:10 [Jesus]...author of eternal salvation... -- Heb 5:9
    God Jesus
    God created the universe and earth by Himself. I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1 Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth. nto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10 y him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
    God Jesus
    God is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1 Jesus is the Word. ...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
    God Jesus
    God is the first and the last. I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4 Jesus is the first and the last. Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

    God Jesus
    God forgives sins. [T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3 "[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 Jesus forgives sins. Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
    God Jesus
    God is our redeemer. [T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16 Jesus redeemed us. [T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14
    God Jesus
    God is one. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4 Jesus and God are one. I and my Father are one. John 10:30 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
    God has a Son. [T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7 Jesus is God's Son. ... [Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18

    God Jesus
    God is the Holy One Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel. Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm) Jesus is the Holy One. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    God Jesus
    Only God is worshipped. ... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10 Jesus is worshipped. While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18 And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6 And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
    God Jesus
    God is Messiah. ...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is Messiah. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
    God Jesus
    God is from everlasting. The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2 Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2

    God Jesus
    Only God is glorified. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8 God glorified Jesus. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 [A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
    God Jesus
    God is 'I am'. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14 Jesus is 'I am'. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
    God heals all diseases. Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2 Jesus heals all diseases. [Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16
    God is the Judge of the whole earth. O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2 [Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25 Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth. [T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22
    God has life in Himself. [T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26 Jesus has life in Himself. so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself; In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
    God raises the dead. [T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21 Jesus raises the dead. [T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21



    Conclusion...
    Jesus Christ is GodThe scriptures bear abundant testimony that Jesus Christ is God. Some liberal preacher will say to me, "You take the Bible literally. It's just myths." I answer, "Yes, I believe the Bible 100%. It is the word of God. If you don't believe it, Jesus is of no effect to you, ye are yet in your sins."

    Additional Verses:


    "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."
    --1 Timothy 3:16



    "But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom'...And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'"
    -- Hebrews 1:8, 10


    "I and my Father are ONE."
    --Jesus Christ, John 10:30


    "...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
    --Philippians 2:5-8


    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
    --1 John 5:7


    "... feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."
    --Acts 20:28


    "Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...
    --1 John 3:16


    "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, receive my spirit."
    --Acts 7:59


    "For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
    --Isaiah 9:6


    "And Thomas answered and said unto him [JESUS], My Lord and MY GOD."
    --John 20:28


    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
    --John 1:1-4, 14


    "Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"
    -- John 14:8-9


    "...CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD..."
    --II Corinthians 4:4


    "...glory of GOD in the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST."
    --II Corinthians 4:6


    "GOD...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SON...who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON..."
    --Hebrews 1:1-3


    Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature:
    1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    *firstborn: pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term 'firstborn' is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called 'firstborn' although he was actually the youngest son.

    "For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
    -- Colossians 2:9


    "...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
    --Matthew 1:23


    "The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, PREPARE ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD."
    -- Isaiah 40:3


    THESE PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS WAS GOD AND THOUGHT HE BLASPHEMED WHEN HE TOLD THE TRUTH.
    "The Jews answered [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
    -- John 10:33


    Addenda from justbible.com--
    Some cults teach that Jesus was God's first Creation, and that Christ then Created the universe we know. This is a verse cults use to support their false doctrine.
    ("Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;")
    This verse also.
    ("John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. ")
    They say, "See, he was in the beginning with God."
    They will even use this verse.
    ("Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.")
    _________
    Now for the Truth, from God's word, let's compare Scripture with Scripture.
    If you only read this verse, you might think it was talking about Jesus, and that he was set up.
    But if you read the chapter, you will realize who or what it is talking about.
    ("Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.")
    Wisdom, not Christ. The whole chapter is about wisdom personified. To make it even more clear that it is not Christ, wisdom is spoken of as female.
    ("Proverbs 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places,...")
    Let's see what the Bible says about Christ.
    ("Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:") ("John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.")
    He created everything that was created, and nothing was created by anyone but him. If Christ made all things then he must have existed before everything that was created. ("Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.") He is the one and only Creator. If he created all things then did he create himself? No, he can't be a created being. He existed before the beginning. He is from Everlasting. ("Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.") Jehovah God said: ("Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.") Jesus Christ said: ("Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.") ("Revelation 1:18 Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.")
    Hosanna in the Highest! Jesus is Jehovah!
    Paul Payton


    BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
     
  12. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Benoni,
    I take what you are saying is - no 3 persons, but 1 Person.
    As in I am one person - I have aspects of myself that are indeed different and serve a different purpose.
    I am a boss. It is different then when I am a daughter. I am a friend -which is different then when I am a teacher.

    Teacher, daughter, boss, friend, === all me. One person.

    So Jesus is a different aspect, as is the Holy Spirit a different aspect, as is the White Light that He is Himself ---all one and the same - but not separate persons.
    Is that it? Am I following you?
     
    Miss Hepburn likes this.
  13. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The rendition of the King James Bible of Acts 20:28, which says: "to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood ", we should examine the arrangement of the Greek words. The online interlinear Scripture4all, reads of Acts 20:28 in Greek: "ho ekklesia ho theos hos peripoieo dia ho haima ho idios", which literally reads: "the out-called of-the God which he-procures thru the blood of-the own." The King James Bible, along with several other Bibles, rearranged the wording, so as the read "his own blood", rather than "the blood of his own." At Hebrews 9:12, the apostle Paul uses the Greek words haima ho idios in that order concerning Jesus: "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood ("his own blood", Greek ho idios haima) he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."(King James Bible)

    Likewise, at Hebrews 13:12, Paul says of Jesus: "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood ("his own blood", Greek ho idios haima), suffered without the gate."(King James Bible) The New World Translation reads at Hebrews 13:12: "Hence Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate." Hence, there is distortion by several translations or versions of the Bible to promote the trinity.(Weymouth's New Testament, Webster's Bible, International Standard Version, William's New Testament) Yet, at Acts 20:28, many Bible translators, including the King James Bible, did not follow the order of the Greek words so as to put a trinitarian twist on them.

    In The New Testament in the Original Greek, a Greek master text by Westcott and Hort, Vol., 2, London, 1881, pp. 99, 100 of the Appendix, Hort stated: “it is by no means impossible that ΥΙΟΥ [hui·ou´, “of the Son”] dropped out after ΤΟΥΙΔΙΟΥ [tou i·di´ou, “of his own”] at some very early transcription affecting all existing documents. Its insertion ("Son") leaves the whole passage free from difficulty of any kind.” Thus, Acts 20:28 does not say that "God....purchased (the congregation) with his own blood" and support the trinity, but rather says: "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son"("blood of own", Greek haima [blood] ho [of] idios [own] ), critically following the order of the Greek.(New World Translation)
     
  14. rob

    rob New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    2
    Many of the most prominent translators, Westcott and Hort in particular whom you quote , were professed unbelievers - evolutionists! They rejected the creation account in Genesis, the Exodus story, the crossing of the Red sea account, the miracles of Elijah, the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus, his resurrection and his promised second advent. Their colossal unbelief was only matched by that of the unbelieving Egyptian scribes.

    Acts 20:28
    Context
    NIV ©biblegateway Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
    NASB ©biblegateway Act 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
    NLT ©biblegateway Act 20:28 "And now beware! Be sure that you feed and shepherd God’s flock––his church, purchased with his blood––over whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.
    MSG ©biblegateway Act 20:28 "Now it's up to you. Be on your toes--both for yourselves and your congregation of sheep. The Holy Spirit has put you in charge of these people--God's people they are--to guard and protect them. God himself thought they were worth dying for.
    BBE ©SABDAweb Act 20:28 Give attention to yourselves, and to all the flock, which the Holy Spirit has given into your care, to give food to the church of God, for which he gave his blood.
    NKJV ©biblegateway Act 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    If the Holy Spirit has made ministers overseers of the flock, that is, shepherds, they must be true to their trust. Let them consider their Master's concern for the flock committed to their charge. It is the church He has purchased with his own blood. The blood was his as Man; yet so close is the union between the Divine and human nature, that it is there called the blood of God, for it was the blood of Him who is God. This put such dignity and worth into it, as to ransom believers from all evil, and purchase all good.


    I
    Whenever you speak of the work of any translation, knowing the belief system of the translators will give you insight into that translation. The King James translators started in 1604 with 54 but by reason of sickness and death, the end count was 47. Every translator of the King James Bible were solid born again Christians, including King James who authorized the translation. King James had nothing to do with the translation. The men who were chosen were tops in their field of languages. Here are just three examples:

    Bishop Lancelot Andrews - Proficient in 20 languages including Greek Hebrew, Chaldee and Syriac and conversant in 15 of those languages

    William John Bois - His father taught him Hebrew at age 5 and by time he was 6, he could write it. At the age of fifteen, he was a student at St. John’s college, Cambridge. (At 5 years old, I was playing with Lincoln Logs and Lionel trains.)

    Dr. Miles Smith - He had a knowledge of Greek and Latin fathers and an expert in Chaldee, Syriac, Arabic, and Hebrew.

    Whereas

    The qualifications of the translators of the New World Translation from which you draw your conclusions is quite disturbing to say the least, as former members of their society revealed the identities of the translation committee members as Frederick W. Franz, Nathan H. Knorr, George D. Gangas, Albert D. Schroeder, Milton G. Henschel, and Karl Klein. A review of their qualifications is disturbing:

    Translator Qualifications
    Franz, Frederick Probably the only person to actually translate. Franz was a liberal arts student at the University of Cincinnati:· 21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin. · Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year. · Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic
    Gangas, George No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek.
    Henschel, Milton No training in biblical languages.
    Klein, Karl No training in biblical languages.
    Knorr, Nathan No training in biblical languages
    Schroeder, Albert No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.



    · The Authorised King James Version is based on the Ben Chayyim Hebrew Masoretic Text and the Greek Textus Receptus. It is a version in the true sense of the term, being based on the original languages. Its style is biblical rather than contemporary. It is infinitely more accurate than any modern translation on the market today. Also remember that the translators of the King James Version were men of faith, piety and learning. They firmly believed that the text they were translating was the very Word of God! Their like has seldom - if ever - been equalled, let alone surpassed. The Almighty brought together this team of faithful, holy and capable linguists to produce the greatest classic in the annals of English literature - the King James Bible. It is the version that God has endorsed and blessed for well nigh 400 years. It should be kept.as It is, in fact, the Genuine Word of God - the HOLY BIBLE!
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

    Messages:
    2,750
    Likes Received:
    85
    With this line of reasoning I am my wife because the scriptures say that we are one.
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

    Messages:
    1,074
    Likes Received:
    16
    Sorry friend, but Jesus cannot be the Father, if He were how could He say the Father is greater than I? It would not be a true statement if Jesus was indeed the Father.
     
  17. logabe

    logabe Active Member

    Messages:
    881
    Likes Received:
    48
    To understand that statement, you have to also realize Jesus was speaking
    as a man. In his humanity, He had to learn obedience ( Hebrews 5:8), He got
    hungry, and He got thirsty. As God ( Spirit of Truth inside of Him), He could heal
    all diseases, feed multitudes, and cast out devils.

    God lowered Himself into humanity...to quality as our Redeemer. He had to
    become flesh in order to become our near kinsman. Only a near kinsmen
    (flesh and blood) qualifies to be a Redeemer.

    So, Jesus spoke as the son of man (humanity) and Son of God (deity). Surely,
    as God, He couldn't have experienced suffering as we do...so He became just
    like us and submitted to the limitations of humanity. 1st John 2:22-23,

    22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is
    the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
    23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses
    the Son has the Father also.


    In the humanity of Jesus, we have to understand He became a man. He was
    invisible before He became flesh, but, we must recognize His humanity in order
    to get to the Spirit (Father) as John says above.

    What made Jesus God? He was given the Spirit without measure and didn't
    use that power to disrupt the plan and purpose of the Spirit (Father). Although
    He could have called legions of angels at any point to deliver Him from His
    enemy, He restrained Himself in order to do as the Father instructed Him. The
    difference between Jesus and humanity is we are given the Spirit with measure
    and Jesus was given the Spirit without measure. John 3:34,

    34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth
    not the Spirit by measure [unto him].


    Logabe
     
    Miss Hepburn likes this.
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

    Messages:
    1,074
    Likes Received:
    16
    Is it your contention that Jesus and the Father are one and the same being? If this is your contention I think you are going to have some problems with a few Scriptures.
     
  19. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    B.F.Westcott and F.J.A. Hort were two Cambridge Bible scholars, who worked independently of each other for 28 years on the Greek text, continually comparing notes from 1853-1881. The statement that "many of the prominent translators, Westcott and Hort in particular....were professed unbelievers - evolutionists !" has no valid basis nor does this have any foundation concerning Acts 20:28. Rather, the Greek word order is what one should closely examine, for the purpose of clearly discerning what the Bible really teaches.

    A footnote in the Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, says of Acts 20:28: "Greisbach, and nearly all modern editors, read "Church of the Lord". The phrase ecclesia tou Kurious (rendered as "Church of the Lord") nowhere occurs in the New Testament, while ecclesia tou theou (meaning "congregation of God") occurs about ten times in Paul's epistles. There are no less than six different readings of this phrase in the MSS.,(manuscripts) which have probably arisen from a presumed difficulty in understanding it in connection with the latter part of the sentence---"purchased with his own blood." But read as it stands in the original, and it still makes good sense, without rejecting the reading of the most ancient MS.,(manuscript) and some of the oldest Peshito Syriac copies. The reader can supply the elliptical word after "own", whether it be "Son", or "Lamb", or "Sacrifice", thus, "feed the CHURCH of God, which he acquired by the BLOOD of his OWN [Son]."

    Thus, many Bibles (King James Bible, American Standard, Young's Bible, Weymouth's New Testament, Webster's Bible, International Standard Version, William's New Testament, Montgomery New Testament), instead of staying with the correct Greek word order, haima ho idios, "blood of his own", have rather changed it to ho idios haima, "his own blood", in order to promote the trinity. A comparable word order that has been distorted is the "Son of God" (John 3:18) as "God the Son". This is called tampering, in effect counterfeiting, trying to make something that is not as if it is real.

    The King James Bible has been shown to have thousands of errors and was based upon the Robert Estienne's Greek "textus receptus"(Latin) edition of 1550 and Ben Chayyim's Masoretic text of 1524-1525 C.E. The King James Bible includes the tampered verses of 1 Timothy 3:16 and 1 John 5:7 that favor the doctrine of the Trinity, but which were not in the oldest Greek manuscripts, such as the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus of the fourth century. It also translates the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades as "hell", promoting the doctrine of eternal torment, which the Bible does not support.

    The King James Bible retained the spurious 1 Timothy 3:16 reading of "God was manifest in the flesh" (also Young's Bible, Darby's Bible, Webster's Bible) instead of "he who was manifested in the flesh."(American Standard Version; Codex Siniaticus) Bruce M. Metzger in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament concludes: “No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports θεός [the·os´]; all ancient versions presuppose ος or ο; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [the·os´].” Today, most translations concur in omitting any reference to “God” in this text.

    Of 1 John 5:7, whereby the spurious words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one" were added by an overzealous advocate of Trinitarianism in the fourth century in a Latin treatise, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), traces in detail the history of the spurious passage of 1 John 5:7. It states that the passage is first found in a treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, of the fourth century, and that it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures, beginning in the sixth century. Modern translations as a whole, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include them in the main body of the text, because of recognizing their spurious nature.—RS, NE, NAB.

    The issue here is with accuracy of the Greek text, as at Acts 20:28, that is lacking in various Bibles, not a personal vendetta.
     
  20. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Wow, Guestman, that was impressive.

    (As a new Bible studier, esp.)
    :) Miss Hepburn

    (Reached my quota of clicking a 'positive', wouldn't let me today.
     
Loading...