Then stop your rassing. I am serious when I write what I write on this forum. I am not here to play.
The Idea of Two Gospels
- Thread starter RichardBurger
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Then stop your rassing. I am serious when I write what I write on this forum. I am not here to play.
Nicely said, Jake!
One gospel is all that God needs to redeem us! God loves the entire world, those chosen are the ones in Christ!
Some people spend way too much time picking and choosing what to follow. We are to follow Christ, hard to do when a person ignores all He has said and is not a doer of the word. The possibility of growing in maturity spiritually is lost, the power of the gospel is lost. Sad.
The Bible is for us all! To obey! We get to obey Christ and follow the Spirit!
May God bless you, Jake!
Prentis
New Member
Good post, sister, good to see you here!
It is always about obeying the Lord, it was in the Old Covenant and is now... We must follow the Lord!
It is always about obeying the Lord, it was in the Old Covenant and is now... We must follow the Lord!
Uhhm...maybe not all the Jews accepted Jesus, but thousands of them certainly did! Like the Gentiles, not everyone is elect. Paul speaks of that Jewish remnant in Romans 9 and 11. The Christian church started with the Jews, they were the first members of Jesus' bride!
And I don't actually believe that the age of grace wouldn't have happened if all the Jews had fallen in line like they were supposed to, that was never part of God's salvation plan. Jesus Himself gives us the idea that not all Jews are going to be part of God chosen people...the church. In Luke 20:9-19 Jesus gives the parable of the Wicked Tenants. The parable is a clear picture of what Jesus knows is going to happen. He's God, God is sovereign. God doesn't just go "D'oh, the pesky Jews didn't follow my master plan, time to go to plan B". Jesus said, "And they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others."
Jesus already knows that most of the Jews will reject Him and continue to reject Him. Paul says in Romans "But it is not as thought the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel...This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (Rom 9:6, 8)
Paul is saying that while God chose the nation of Israel to bring Jesus into the world, purchasing salvation for the elect, there were only a remnant of that nation that were truly God's people, that were 'accredited righteousness' by their faith and their forward hope in the coming Messiah. It was these people that were 'true' Israel, and now, after Jesus sacrifice, the Church has become the 'true' Israel...God's chosen people. It matters not if we are racially Jew or Gentile, those boarders have been washed away by blood.
And I also have to reject your last hypothesis too. "The Gentiles would be saved "through the Jews"". No one...absolutely no one, is saved by anything or anyone other than Jesus. We have no need of intermediaries...because of His sacrifice. Even had all the Jews repented and received the gospel, the Gentiles would have been saved the exact same way as they are now....through faith in Christ.
You are still trying to erect a wall somewhere...between Jew and Gentile. There is no difference...we are either one in Christ, or one in damnation. Races have no meaning now...we are either Christian...as many Jews were in the NT and are today, or we are non-Christian. You cannot put up that wall unless all Jews, and I mean all, are not Christian, brought by Jesus' blood. You cannot say one thing holds for all Jews, when clearly it does not. I cannot understand how you can say that there are two gospels when the Bible only ever talks of Jesus, of redemption for ALL who believe in Jesus. Of new life for those who have faith in Jesus.
There is only one gospel, brother, and I can't for the life of me understand how you can see two!
Actually there are as many gospels as there are favorable promises. 'Gospel' means good news. The good news to Abraham was'...
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:5-6)
The Gospel for the Israelites leaving Egypt was that they would be given a land flowing with milk and honey...unlike Abraham most failed miserably in believing.
Even though the basis of all salvation was based on the shed Blood of the Lamb, God dealt differently and had different promises to the Jews and to the Gentiles. But now through the revelation given to Paul...both Jew and Gentile are incorporated into the one Body of Christ through the free gift of grace apart from the law by ...That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:9)
and...Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(1Co 15:1-3)
Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:25-26)
Yes and there will come a tine when this Gospel dispensation ceases and the resumption of the promises (Gospel again) for a Messianic Kingdom resumes.
All dispensations were saved by faith but the object (promises) of that faith differed.
As a side, if you think it was the same Gospel today as it was in Noah's day, you'd better start trembling because only 8 were saved!! Instaed we find multitudes...After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(Rev 7:9)
Thanks be to God for His unspeakable grace which is in His Son and which He chose Paul to reveal unto us believers today.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:5-6)
The Gospel for the Israelites leaving Egypt was that they would be given a land flowing with milk and honey...unlike Abraham most failed miserably in believing.
Even though the basis of all salvation was based on the shed Blood of the Lamb, God dealt differently and had different promises to the Jews and to the Gentiles. But now through the revelation given to Paul...both Jew and Gentile are incorporated into the one Body of Christ through the free gift of grace apart from the law by ...That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:9)
and...Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(1Co 15:1-3)
Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:25-26)
Yes and there will come a tine when this Gospel dispensation ceases and the resumption of the promises (Gospel again) for a Messianic Kingdom resumes.
All dispensations were saved by faith but the object (promises) of that faith differed.
As a side, if you think it was the same Gospel today as it was in Noah's day, you'd better start trembling because only 8 were saved!! Instaed we find multitudes...After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(Rev 7:9)
Thanks be to God for His unspeakable grace which is in His Son and which He chose Paul to reveal unto us believers today.
Prism said: "Actually there are as many gospels as there are favorable promises. 'Gospel' means good news. The good news to Abraham was'..."
Prism also said: "But now through the revelation given to Paul...both Jew and Gentile are incorporated into the one Body of Christ through the free gift of grace apart from the law by ..."
Is that not how Paul said God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness long before the Old Law?
Romans 4:1 "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
From the foundation of the world was not Abel's righteous blood able to cry out to God from the ground because God reckoned Abel's faith to be righteousness while he yet lived?
And what was it from before the foundation of the world that made this possible?
1 Peter 1:19-20 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
Does not Revelation 13:8 refer to Jesus when it speaks of "... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?
Every man of faith from the beginning of the world has been able to be justified by faith for righteousness due to the sacrifice of Christ.
You see, from the moment Adam sinned God purposed it to be so. And it was as if already done. When God purposes anything, it is as good as already done.
Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."
Yes, the word "gospel" means "good news". But none of the "good news" you mentioned could be of any lasting value apart from the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Now notice that we were chosen in Christ (Ephesians 1:4) from --> BEFORE <-- the foundation of the world. That was just after Adam sinned but Adam had no offspring as of yet. But we are told that the Lamb was slain (not before, but) --> FROM <-- the foundation of the world.
The world began with Adam's first child. And we can see then that the ransom does not cover Adam or Eve as the Lamb was not slain until the birth of Adam's first child.
The New Covenant is not new in an absolute sense.. It is older than the Old Covenant. It was only new as compared to what was being done with Israel in a specific period of time.
Prism also said: "But now through the revelation given to Paul...both Jew and Gentile are incorporated into the one Body of Christ through the free gift of grace apart from the law by ..."
Is that not how Paul said God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness long before the Old Law?
Romans 4:1 "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
From the foundation of the world was not Abel's righteous blood able to cry out to God from the ground because God reckoned Abel's faith to be righteousness while he yet lived?
And what was it from before the foundation of the world that made this possible?
1 Peter 1:19-20 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
Does not Revelation 13:8 refer to Jesus when it speaks of "... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?
Every man of faith from the beginning of the world has been able to be justified by faith for righteousness due to the sacrifice of Christ.
You see, from the moment Adam sinned God purposed it to be so. And it was as if already done. When God purposes anything, it is as good as already done.
Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."
Yes, the word "gospel" means "good news". But none of the "good news" you mentioned could be of any lasting value apart from the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Now notice that we were chosen in Christ (Ephesians 1:4) from --> BEFORE <-- the foundation of the world. That was just after Adam sinned but Adam had no offspring as of yet. But we are told that the Lamb was slain (not before, but) --> FROM <-- the foundation of the world.
The world began with Adam's first child. And we can see then that the ransom does not cover Adam or Eve as the Lamb was not slain until the birth of Adam's first child.
The New Covenant is not new in an absolute sense.. It is older than the Old Covenant. It was only new as compared to what was being done with Israel in a specific period of time.
I agre with your post. And how would anyone know this if it was not for the Apostle sent to the Gentiles, Paul. This age of grace was not seen in prophesy.
Prentis
New Member
This gospel is not a special gospel revealed to Paul. Only Paul had revelation of the work of Christ.
It is the work of Christ, who by his death has made both Jew and Gentile one in him and reconciled them to God, that is, those who believe and repent.
God is not about a scheme that people might get away with something, he is not here to 'hide' our sins. Rather God works reconciliation, and makes peace between men and himself. To do this, he has sent his son, and by the new life he has allowed us to share through his son, we can be wholy reconciled.
It is the work of Christ, who by his death has made both Jew and Gentile one in him and reconciled them to God, that is, those who believe and repent.
God is not about a scheme that people might get away with something, he is not here to 'hide' our sins. Rather God works reconciliation, and makes peace between men and himself. To do this, he has sent his son, and by the new life he has allowed us to share through his son, we can be wholy reconciled.
This gospel is not a special gospel revealed to Paul. Only Paul had revelation of the work of Christ.
It is the work of Christ, who by his death has made both Jew and Gentile one in him and reconciled them to God, that is, those who believe and repent.
God is not about a scheme that people might get away with something, he is not here to 'hide' our sins. Rather God works reconciliation, and makes peace between men and himself. To do this, he has sent his son, and by the new life he has allowed us to share through his son, we can be wholy reconciled.
That is exactly right Prentis.
What is the sacrifice of the Lamb if not the gospel of grace? What was Abraham's being asked to offer up Isaac on the alter but a prophetic picture of God's grace issued to and through faith?
The entire Old Law pointed to Christ as David well knew and often spoke about in the Psalms.
Only those stuck seeing by the carnal mind could not see it but as for faith, well, faith has spiritual eyes.
Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Paul's point is not that it is the same Gospel, but that man is justified by believing God's promise (whatever it might be) not by deeds of the law.
This gospel is not a special gospel revealed to Paul. Only Paul had revelation of the work of Christ.
It is the work of Christ, who by his death has made both Jew and Gentile one in him and reconciled them to God, that is, those who believe and repent.
God is not about a scheme that people might get away with something, he is not here to 'hide' our sins. Rather God works reconciliation, and makes peace between men and himself. To do this, he has sent his son, and by the new life he has allowed us to share through his son, we can be wholy reconciled.
"Only Paul had revelation of the work of Christ."
...and it's relation to believers (both Jew and Gentile) in this Church age.
"Rather God works reconciliation, and makes peace between men and himself. To do this, he has sent his son, and by the new life he has allowed us to share through his son, we can be wholly reconciled"
This is partly true, I would prefer to put God's 'part' in the past tense...
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
(2Co 5:18-20)
God has made his peace, mankind is now to make theirs.
Prentis
New Member
Ooops! Firstly let me clear up I don't mean Paul is the 'only' one, but that, 'only' as in 'except', or 'though'! Otherwise I would be wrong! Since Peter had this revelation too, clearly shown in acts, and it was shared among the brethren.
God both HAS reconciled and IS reconciling us and WILL reconcile us, in the same sense that is says you HAVE been saved, you ARE being saved, and you SHALL be saved. If we stop halfway, it is not completed.
Christ has come, given revelation to many, sent many, for the sake of one Gospel, that works for the current and future reconciliation of men to God and the building of his body and his people.
Excellent post! Amen brother!
As it has always been. Abraham was justified for this same thing. The reason men in the Old Testament would be justified by following the law is not because that's somehow magic, but because they were to follow the law out of FAITH in the promises, believing that God was faithful to reward obedience and to fulfill his promise for those who believed him.
It has always been by faith, as we read in Hebrews 11. Only now we have a greater revelation of the character and ways of God in Jesus Christ, and by this revelation and it's work in our heart, we are enable to follow even more closely. This, however, is not a magic pass, and does not guarantee our faithfulness.
Rather we have received more, because we have the example fo the Israelites and the revelation of Christ, and thus we should be more closely conformed to God. We have been given the means to be as Christ, that is Christ in us, the hope of glory. We must walk by this in obedience, as men obeyed the law by faith in the Old Covenant.
Also, if it was all about the law, David would of been condemned for eating the bread of the temple, but this happened to show us that it was already indeed by faith, as David was a man after God's own heart.
God both HAS reconciled and IS reconciling us and WILL reconcile us, in the same sense that is says you HAVE been saved, you ARE being saved, and you SHALL be saved. If we stop halfway, it is not completed.
Christ has come, given revelation to many, sent many, for the sake of one Gospel, that works for the current and future reconciliation of men to God and the building of his body and his people.
Excellent post! Amen brother!
As it has always been. Abraham was justified for this same thing. The reason men in the Old Testament would be justified by following the law is not because that's somehow magic, but because they were to follow the law out of FAITH in the promises, believing that God was faithful to reward obedience and to fulfill his promise for those who believed him.
It has always been by faith, as we read in Hebrews 11. Only now we have a greater revelation of the character and ways of God in Jesus Christ, and by this revelation and it's work in our heart, we are enable to follow even more closely. This, however, is not a magic pass, and does not guarantee our faithfulness.
Rather we have received more, because we have the example fo the Israelites and the revelation of Christ, and thus we should be more closely conformed to God. We have been given the means to be as Christ, that is Christ in us, the hope of glory. We must walk by this in obedience, as men obeyed the law by faith in the Old Covenant.
Also, if it was all about the law, David would of been condemned for eating the bread of the temple, but this happened to show us that it was already indeed by faith, as David was a man after God's own heart.
1 Timothy 1:15-16
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV
Verse 16 says that Paul was the first to be saved under grace but the religious refuse to believe him.
Why do people continue to close their eyes to the truth? Because they have been blinded!
The scriptures teach that only those that have been born of the Holy Spirit can see the truth in God's word. IMHO people do not want the words of God to mean what they say, but what they want them to say.
If a person does not believe verse 16 then they do not believe the words of the scriptures. Pialn and simple.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV
Verse 16 says that Paul was the first to be saved under grace but the religious refuse to believe him.
Why do people continue to close their eyes to the truth? Because they have been blinded!
The scriptures teach that only those that have been born of the Holy Spirit can see the truth in God's word. IMHO people do not want the words of God to mean what they say, but what they want them to say.
If a person does not believe verse 16 then they do not believe the words of the scriptures. Pialn and simple.
Prentis
New Member
Well, it could also be said that if you use verse 16 to contradict the rest of what Paul says, you don't belive the words of scripture! Plain and simple.
Paul is the first of many in the sense that he is an example to the Gentiles, of a man hard and hating who is turned to the Gospel and becomes a minister of Christ.
[sup]5[/sup]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[sup]6[/sup]Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
According to you, he's a king to the Jews, and a ransom ONLY to gentiles. But Christ is the ransom to all, and he has made Jew and Gentile one in him.
[sup]12[/sup]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[sup]13[/sup]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[sup]14[/sup]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[sup]15[/sup]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[sup]16[/sup]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Both Jew and Gentile are reconciled to God by the cross. He is a king AND a Father unto both, and a master unto both, whom we must follow. If you believe this, you deny the above scripture, plain and simple!
What is religious is any scheme that claims to reconcile us to God without actually changing our spiritual reality and truly making us one with him, not only in word, but in spirit and truth.
Paul is the first of many in the sense that he is an example to the Gentiles, of a man hard and hating who is turned to the Gospel and becomes a minister of Christ.
[sup]5[/sup]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[sup]6[/sup]Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
According to you, he's a king to the Jews, and a ransom ONLY to gentiles. But Christ is the ransom to all, and he has made Jew and Gentile one in him.
[sup]12[/sup]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[sup]13[/sup]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[sup]14[/sup]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[sup]15[/sup]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[sup]16[/sup]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Both Jew and Gentile are reconciled to God by the cross. He is a king AND a Father unto both, and a master unto both, whom we must follow. If you believe this, you deny the above scripture, plain and simple!
What is religious is any scheme that claims to reconcile us to God without actually changing our spiritual reality and truly making us one with him, not only in word, but in spirit and truth.
I find this a typical technique in responding. One person makes a point backing it up with Scripture (God's Revelation), the response comes back sounding 'reasonable' but without Scriptural backing.. Do we still hold to Sola Scriptura or does human reason now take a seat of authority next to or even higher than Scripture? Show me in Scripture where reconciliation by God is in the present tense. In the meantime while I am waiting...
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(Rom 5:10)
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2Co 5:18)
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(Eph 2:16)
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
(Col 1:20-21)
Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(Heb 2:17)
No where but at Calvary some 2000 years ago on a bloody cross outside the gates of Jerusalem.
Prentis
New Member
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Salvation is a process, it begins at reconciliation, I concede that, but only if we understand that is the beginning, and not a once done deal. We must persevere that we might be saved.
This is said to Christians:
James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. (future)
Simply 'believing' has no bearing if we do not walk in faith. It is not the hearers, but the doers of the word who are justified. The meaning of 'believe' is to actually believe to the point of obeying.
By the cross we were reconciled, but now we must carry our cross. It is the same with the man who is forgiven his debt, but does not forgive his neighbor, his forgiveness is lost and he is put in prison. If we forget we have been cleansed of our old sins and walk in evil again, we are once more to blame.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Salvation is a process, it begins at reconciliation, I concede that, but only if we understand that is the beginning, and not a once done deal. We must persevere that we might be saved.
This is said to Christians:
James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. (future)
Simply 'believing' has no bearing if we do not walk in faith. It is not the hearers, but the doers of the word who are justified. The meaning of 'believe' is to actually believe to the point of obeying.
By the cross we were reconciled, but now we must carry our cross. It is the same with the man who is forgiven his debt, but does not forgive his neighbor, his forgiveness is lost and he is put in prison. If we forget we have been cleansed of our old sins and walk in evil again, we are once more to blame.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
This discussion is fruitless. Creating a false dichotomy between gospels is not helpful. Christ is calling us to forget dichotomies and simply love with wild abandonment! Stop determining right from wrong! The fact is, you are woefully incapable of determining right from wrong - that is God's business, not yours! We are called to love, PERIOD! So get to loving.
Well, it could also be said that if you use verse 16 to contradict the rest of what Paul says, you don't belive the words of scripture! Plain and simple.
Paul is the first of many in the sense that he is an example to the Gentiles, of a man hard and hating who is turned to the Gospel and becomes a minister of Christ.
[sup]5[/sup]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[sup]6[/sup]Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
According to you, he's a king to the Jews, and a ransom ONLY to gentiles. But Christ is the ransom to all, and he has made Jew and Gentile one in him.
[sup]12[/sup]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[sup]13[/sup]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[sup]14[/sup]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[sup]15[/sup]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[sup]16[/sup]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Both Jew and Gentile are reconciled to God by the cross. He is a king AND a Father unto both, and a master unto both, whom we must follow. If you believe this, you deny the above scripture, plain and simple!
What is religious is any scheme that claims to reconcile us to God without actually changing our spiritual reality and truly making us one with him, not only in word, but in spirit and truth.
That is foolish. I have never said that we are not born of the Holy Spirit. I have said that our spirits that have been born of God can not sin because it has been born of God. BUT that does not mean our bodies with their Adamic sinful nature are becoming perfect in God's sight. It still has to die. -- This is our disagreement, you claim we are to become perfect in sinful flesh and I disagree. To make it an all over the world disagreement is foolishness.
What Paul said was plain and simple. If you think it contradict over scriptures perhaps you do not understand those other scriptures. But what he said in verse 16 can not be rationalized to mean something else.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Peter, James and the Elders agreed that Paul was the Apostle Jesus sent to the Gentile. But it was hard for them to understand that God would turn from the Jews to the Gentiles.
This discussion is fruitless. Creating a false dichotomy between gospels is not helpful. Christ is calling us to forget dichotomies and simply love with wild abandonment! Stop determining right from wrong! The fact is, you are woefully incapable of determining right from wrong - that is God's business, not yours! We are called to love, PERIOD! So get to loving.
We are called to glorify God's Son, Jesus Christ. WE do not glorify Him when we try to glorify ourselves.
Do we need to understand that the gospel given to Paul is a new gospel that was hidden in God? Sure we do or we will forever be blending law into grace and subvert the will of God. That will send many to hell.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Oh no! Richard - Paul is a true disciple of Christ!! He is the bridge between Jews and gentiles! His gospel is Christ's gospel.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Where does that say that Paul was the first to be saved under grace? Are you saying that there were humans that did not need grace to be saved?
All I see it saying is that Paul was first (as it relates to the Gentiles to whom he preached) to need to be shown more than the usual long-suffering before he accepted God's grace.
Don't confuse grace and long-suffering.
You read too much into the scripture Richard.
You must see the phrase "the dispensation of grace" as though a new time period.
It has nothing to do with a time period. "Dispensation of grace" merely means the act of dispensing grace. And it has been being dispensed from the foundation of the world when the Lamb was slain.
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
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