The Jerusalem which is above is the heavenly city of promise which God has prepared for His saints

[Scott Downey]

No one in the OT under the OC, came to be with the Father in heaven without Christ.
Heaven is layered, there are levels, Heaven is above, earth is below.
The Heaven where God dwells, no one comes to the Father without Christ, no Elijah did not ascend into heaven to live with the Father before Christ came. That lots of people also disagree with cause if you read the OT is says some things that the unlearned would say that Elijah ascended into heaven without Christ. But to be consistent with the NC words of Christ, no one should believe Elijah or Enoch did that.

If we could become righteous enough to live with God in heaven, then Christ died in vain.
And none are righteous. A whole lot of New Testament teaching has to be ignored and twisted to say otherwise.
The LAW under the Old Covenant made nothing perfect

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

When Christ came we got a change in the LAW, comparing the OC and the NC
Hebrews 7

The King of Righteousness​

1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the [a]spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

Need for a New Priesthood​

11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has [b]officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning [c]priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For [d]He testifies:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

19 for the law made nothing [e]perfect;

on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
****************************************************************************

Hebrews 7

11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has [b]officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning [c]priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.

**********************************
And v8 God says He has no pleasure in animal sacrifices at the alter, so why in a so called 1000 year earthly reign, would God desire animal sacrifices again? He wont, God does not go backwards.
**********************************

Hebrews 10:1
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified​

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is [e]remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, and that will be where the Lord`s own throne will be, and we will rule with Him there. (Ps. 2: 6 Rev. 3: 21)

Not "will be". It is where His throne IS.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Melted" things (Luo):

2 Peter 3:10b ".. shall luo (loose) with kausoo (fire, fervent heat), the ge (earth) also and the ergon that are therein shall be katakaio (wholly consumed).

Luo: To loose. Used in:

Luo: Matthew 5:19 (loose one of the commandments); 16:19 & 18:18 (loosed on earth, loosed in heaven); 21:2 (tied up ass and colt, loosed);

Luo: Mark 1:7 (John the Baptist saying he is not worthy to loose the shoes of Christ); 1:7 (tongue loosed); 11:2 & 4-5 (colt loosed that was bound).

Luo: Luke 13:15 (Loosing of an ox on the sabbath day & Jesus loosing of a woman who was bound with infirmity on the sabbath day).

Luo: Revelation 5:2 (seals loosed); 9:14 (angels loosed); 20:7 (Satan loosed from his prison).

Luo: Acts 2:24: Whom God hath raised up, having luo (loosed) the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Luo: 1 Corinthians 7:27: Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be luo (loosed). Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

The meaning of the word luo doubles-up as "broken" or "destroyed":
​

Ephesians 2:14: Jesus luo (loosed, broke down) the wall of partitiion between Jew and Gentile - the word doubles up as "destroyed".

John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had luo (broken, loosed) the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 2:19: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (luo: loose) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.​

What is your point here exactly? I'm already aware that the word has multiple definitions, so you don't need to tell me that. One of the definitions is in relation to melting or destroying physical things. It's not used to describe annihilating things and I'm not even saying that, if that's what you're thinking.

2 Peter 3

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the ouranos (heavens) were of old, and the ge (earth) standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the kosmos (world) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly anthropos (men / humanity).

So most Christians read it like this:

7 But the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of the destruction of the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth).

Yet that's not what it says. It says the judgment and perdition of ungodly humanity. ​

Where did I say otherwise? Were you meaning to address this post to someone else? I do not interpret the phrase "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" to be referring to the destruction of the heavens and the earth.

However, it does say before that part that the heavens and earth are reserved unto fire, and that is compared directly to the world in Noah's day being destroyed by water. Not annihilated. Destroyed in the sense that the water destroyed all of the living things on the earth that weren't in the ark and destroyed all the buildings and so on that were on the earth. By the same word the heavens and earth which are now are "reserved unto fire".

NOR were the heavens and the earth destroyed in the days of Noah, but rather the world and all ungodly men in it:

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the ouranos (heavens) were of old, and the ge (earth) standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the kosmos (world) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:​

Yes, but the world (the earth) itself was destroyed as well. All of the plants and animals and buildings and everything on the earth was destroyed. Peter said in relation to that: "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire".

So, to me, that means the surface of the earth will once again be destroyed except this time it will be by fire instead of by water.

Peter is simply saying that God used the same water to destroy the world by water.​

Right. And the water destroyed all of the people who didn't go through the door into the ark and everything else on the earth that wasn't on the ark. When Jesus returns, all of the people who didn't go through Jesus (The Door - John 10:9) to be saved and everything else on the earth will be destroyed by fire.

The word "luo" in 2 Peter 3:10 & 12 does not mean the heavens and earth are to be "melted" or dissolved (though most Christians seem determined to believe this).

We believe it because that is what it clearly says. But, are you thinking that I'm saying the heavens and earth will be annihilated? I very specifically said otherwise. The heavens and earth will not be melted down to the point of being annihilated, but rather will be changed similar to how our bodies are not annihilated but will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52).

It's talking about the rudiments and principles of this world (stoicheion) being loosed, dissolved, broken up by fire - the fire of the judgment and perdition of ungodly anthropos:

7 But the ouranos (heavens) and the ge (earth), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly anthropos (men / humanity).​

I disagree, but you are talking about one definition of the word "elements", but how can the melting and dissolving of the heavens and earth be understood as the melting and dissolving of the rudiments and principles of this world?

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall parerchomai (suddenly seize upon them) with a great wirring whizzing noise, and the stoicheion (rudiments and principles of this world) shall luo (be loosed) with kausoo (fire, fervent heat),

the ge (earth) also and the ergon (works of men and of Satan and of darkness) that are therein shall be katakaio (wholly consumed).

It implies (as you have previously said) that the world will be wholly consumed by fire, just as the world was wholly consumed by water in the days of Noah. But

1. The heavens and the earth themselves were not destroyed by water in the days of Noah and the heavens and the earth themselves will not be destroyed by fire in the day of the judgment and perdition of ungodly humanity.
2. The word luo implies that the world will be loosed from being bound up by the stoicheion (rudiments and principles of this world). It does not imply that anything will be "melted": "Dissolved" is a much better word to use than "melted".​

You seem to not understand what I believe despite my having spelled it out. I never have said that the heavens and earth will be annihilated, yet that seems to be what you are arguing against. The new heavens and new earth are not entirely new heavens and earth, but rather will be the current heavens and earth made new.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hebrews tells us the church is there.
Who else is the redeemed?

Hebrews 12 is for all who believe in Christ. The church lives in that city, it is part of God's plan, where are His many mansions, where Christ has gone ahead of us into heaven to prepare a place for us to be with Him. A master builder He is

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Entire chapter

​

Hi Scott,

You missed that group - the spirits of just men made perfect.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hi Scott,

You missed that group - the spirits of just men made perfect.

That is the individual members of the body of Christ, the church.

No one comes to the Father who is in Heaven apart from Christ. And Christ said He will build His church.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

True for all time.

Even so the OT saints, they also are joined to the body of Christ in heaven. Recall about Abraham,
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

 

[Marilyn C]

That is the individual members of the body of Christ, the church.

No one comes to the Father who is in Heaven apart from Christ. And Christ said He will build His church.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

True for all time.

Even so the OT saints, they also are joined to the body of Christ in heaven. Recall about Abraham,
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

The OT (spirits of just men & women) were promised the city. (Heb. 11: 16) but we, the Body of Christ are promised the throne. (Rev. 3: 21) The two groups have separate ruling areas but united under Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

I quoted scriptures using the word, so unless you quote scriptures using the word (especially when using the word in reference to something being destroyed)

It has the word, not that it needed to. It clearly says the heavens will burn with fire which you denied was something the passages teaches.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

No, that does not happen at the second coming and no passage teaches it. The NHNE is clearly seen by John AFTER the GWTJ is over. In Amill and Premill that is not something that happens at the second coming.

 

[Zao is life]

What is your point here exactly? I'm already aware that the word has multiple definitions,

It doesn't have multiple definitions. In every other N.T verses it's referring to the loosening up of something that was either bound, tied up, or bound together as a unit. That's why in some verses it doubles up as something that was bound together being broken down. It does not refer to the entire universe including the chemical elements of the planet earth ("the heavens and the earth") being melted and completely destroyed. The universe and entire planet earth (ge) were not destroyed in the flood either. "The world" (kosmos) and all flesh in it with the exception of the redeemed family were destroyed in the flood.

The destruction of ungodly men is the subject of 2 Peter 3:7 - not the universe and the chemical elements of earth. (Not "the heavens and the earth" - regardless of whether or not the surface of the entire planet is going to be covered by fire the way it was covered by water.

so you don't need to tell me that. One of the definitions is in relation to melting or destroying physical things. It's not used to describe annihilating things and I'm not even saying that, if that's what you're thinking.

No but with regard to their application of the word luo, you do tend to agree with those who misconstrue or misapply the word luo into meaning annihilation of the planet and the universe, without ever telling them that they cannot use that word as "proof" for what they say because that's not what the word means in the rest of the New Testament - though they use the word as proof of what they say about the annihilation and total destruction of the planet and the universe ("the heavens and the earth").

That's what my point was and the reason for my quoting other scriptures using the same word - to show that it does not necessarily mean the annihilation as they claim it does.

However, it does say before that part that the heavens and earth are reserved unto fire, and that is compared directly to the world in Noah's day being destroyed by water. Not annihilated.

Agreed.

Yes, but the world (the earth) itself was destroyed as well.

Not the earth. The planet was not destroyed. Yes, "the world" and all flesh in it was destroyed. To me the words "the earth" means the planet itself.

So, to me, that means the surface of the earth will once again be destroyed except this time it will be by fire instead of by water.

I agree - but I also agree that the fire mentioned could possibly be a metaphor for the wrath of God (which I don't think you agree with).

I disagree, but you are talking about one definition of the word "elements", but how can the melting and dissolving of the heavens and earth be understood as the melting and dissolving of the rudiments and principles of this world?

The word elements is referring to the destruction of ungodly men - the works (ergon) being mentioned in the verse. The earth itself - rocks and trees - does not have "works". The word ergon (the works being mentioned) is used many, many times in reference to the works of men (a very long list), sometimes to the works of Satan, and sometimes to the works of God.

What "works" are being destroyed by fire? The works of ungodly men are being destroyed - all the rudiments and principles of this fallen world. It's what the word stoicheion means in every other N.T verse where it's used.

You seem to not understand what I believe despite my having spelled it out. I never have said that the heavens and earth will be annihilated, yet that seems to be what you are arguing against.

I do understand but you don't understand what I'm saying, or why I'm saying this:

What "works" are being destroyed by fire? Ungodly men are being destroyed, and their works (ergon) with them - all the rudiments and principles (stoicheion) of this fallen world. It's what the word stoicheion means in every other N.T verse where it's used.

And the reason I posted all that to you is because though you don't say that say that the heavens and earth will be annihilated, yet you seem to agree with those who say that the works and (especially) the elements being destroyed are referring to the annihilation of the planet and of the universe, because you agree with them that elements refers to the elements of the planet.

In a sense you contradict yourself because if the elements of the planet earth are destroyed by fire, there will be no earth left and there will need to be an entirely new creation.

 

[complete]

Subject Heading:- 'The Jerusalem which is above is the heavenly city of promise which God has prepared for His saints.'

Hello there, @ScottDowney,

Looking through the thread it is apparent that there are many differing views regarding this subject: I too differ from you in this regard.

There are several spheres that will be occupied by the redeemed in that day, and the Heavenly city is just one of them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello @Scott Downey,

The following references show three spheres. ' The earth', 'A heavenly city', and 'far above all heavens', in Christ Jesus. All three linked to inheritance.

(1)

'For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: ​

yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. ​

But the meek shall inherit the earth; ​

(Psa 37:10 )​

​

'Blessed are the meek: ​

for they shall inherit the earth.'​

(Mat 5:5)​

(2)

'By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, ​

as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,​

the heirs with him of the same promise:​

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, ​

whose builder and maker is God.' ... ... ...​

... ... ... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: ​

wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: ​

for He hath prepared for them a city. ... ... ... '​

(Heb 11:9-10 & 16)​

​

'And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be His people,
and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.​

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.'​

(Rev 21:2-4)​

​

(3)

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings ​

in heavenly places in Christ:​

(Eph 1:3)​

​

'That in the dispensation of the fulness of times ​

He might gather together in one all things in Christ, ​

both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:​

In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, ​

being predestinated according to the purpose of Him ​

Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:​

That we should be to the praise of His glory, ​

who first trusted in Christ. In Whom ye also trusted, ​

after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: ​

in Whom also after that ye believed, ​

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Which is the earnest of our inheritance ​

until the redemption of the purchased possession, ​

unto the praise of His glory.'​

(Eph 1:10-14)​

​

'Wherefore He saith, ​

When He ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, ​

and gave gifts unto men.​

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first ​

into the lower parts of the earth?​

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, ​

that he might fill all things.)​

(Eph 4:8-10)​

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Scott Downey]

Hello @Scott Downey,

The following references show three spheres. ' The earth', 'A heavenly city', and 'far above all heavens', in Christ Jesus. All three linked to inheritance.

(1)

'For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: ​

yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. ​

But the meek shall inherit the earth; ​

(Psa 37:10 )​

​

'Blessed are the meek: ​

for they shall inherit the earth.'​

(Mat 5:5)​

(2)

'By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, ​

as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,​

the heirs with him of the same promise:​

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, ​

whose builder and maker is God.' ... ... ...​

... ... ... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: ​

wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: ​

for He hath prepared for them a city. ... ... ... '​

(Heb 11:9-10 & 16)​

​

'And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, ​

coming down from God out of heaven, ​

prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, ​

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, ​

and he will dwell with them, ​

and they shall be His people, ​

and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.​

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; ​

and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, ​

neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.'​

(Rev 21:2-4)​

​

(3)

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings ​

in heavenly places in Christ:​

(Eph 1:3)​

​

'That in the dispensation of the fulness of times ​

He might gather together in one all things in Christ, ​

both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:​

In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, ​

being predestinated according to the purpose of Him ​

Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:​

That we should be to the praise of His glory, ​

who first trusted in Christ. In Whom ye also trusted, ​

after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: ​

in Whom also after that ye believed, ​

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Which is the earnest of our inheritance ​

until the redemption of the purchased possession, ​

unto the praise of His glory.'​

(Eph 1:10-14)​

​

'Wherefore He saith, ​

When He ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, ​

and gave gifts unto men.​

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first ​

into the lower parts of the earth?​

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, ​

that he might fill all things.)​

(Eph 4:8-10)​

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree, and where does the Holy City of God go when Christ returns?
It comes down out of heaven onto the new earth, and we all live together as one, God and man.

I view it like Heaven and Earth are joined in that age of the resurrection, or as in there is no separation between them, just as we are joined as one spirit with Him.
1 Cor 6
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Yes we inherit that earth, we also inherit all things.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn't have multiple definitions. In every other N.T verses it's referring to the loosening up of something that was either bound, tied up, or bound together as a unit. That's why in some verses it doubles up as something that was bound together being broken down. It does not refer to the entire universe including the chemical elements of the planet earth ("the heavens and the earth") being melted and completely destroyed. The universe and entire planet earth (ge) were not destroyed in the flood either. "The world" (kosmos) and all flesh in it with the exception of the redeemed family were destroyed in the flood.

Hold on now. We can't decide what Greek words can mean this way. No Greek lexicon gives only one definition of that word. It is a fact that the Greek word lyō has more than one definition. The context of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is completely different than the other verses that use the word, none of which also talk about the dissolving of the heavens and the earth, so I don't believe it's valid to compare 2 Peter 3:10-12 to those verses.



Notice that the word can mean to loosen literally or figuratively and can mean to "dissolve" or "melt". There is no reason whatsoever that the word can't be used to describe the literal dissolving or melting of the chemical elements, the heavens and the earth.

The destruction of ungodly men is the subject of 2 Peter 3:7 - not the universe and the chemical elements of earth. (Not "the heavens and the earth" - regardless of whether or not the surface of the entire planet is going to be covered by fire the way it was covered by water.

I completely disagree. That is clearly not the only thing described in 2 Peter 3:7.

2 Peter 3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

In the flood, both the earth itself and the people on the earth who were not on the ark, were destroyed by the flood waters. Peter said by the same word (in the same vein, similarly in scope and type of destruction) the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire. So, just as the earth and the people of the earth who were not on the ark were destroyed by the flood waters, the earth, and the people on the earth who do not put on bodily immortality when Christ returns at the last trumpet, will similarly be destroyed by fire. Was the earth and the people of the earth annihilated by the flood? No. With the flood the people were killed and the earth was changed dramatically with all the things on the surface of it having been destroyed. When Jesus returns the surface of the earth will be burned up and renewed and the people left on the earth while we are with immortal bodies and with Jesus in the air (Noah and his family being on the ark typified this), will all be destroyed by fire.

No but with regard to their application of the word luo, you do tend to agree with those who misconstrue or misapply the word luo into meaning annihilation of the planet and the universe, without ever telling them that they cannot use that word as "proof" for what they say because that's not what the word means in the rest of the New Testament - though they use the word as proof of what they say about the annihilation and total destruction of the planet and the universe ("the heavens and the earth").

How many people even interpret it that way on this forum? I can only think of one person who does. So, who are "those" that I tend to agree with about this "who misconstrue or misapply the word luo into meaning annihilation of the planet and the universe"?

That's what my point was and the reason for my quoting other scriptures using the same word - to show that it does not necessarily mean the annihilation as they claim it does.

We agree on this so let us celebrate our agreement!

Not the earth. The planet was not destroyed. Yes, "the world" and all flesh in it was destroyed. To me the words "the earth" means the planet itself.

Okay, so, we're not on the same page here, so let's try to use the same definitions for words or at least make sure we know what the other is talking about when using certain terms. I do not see "the earth" as necessarily referring to the entire planet, including all the way to its inner core. I just see it as referring to the earth's surface and, in that sense, I don't see it any differently than "the world" that was destroyed by the flood.

I agree - but I also agree that the fire mentioned could possibly be a metaphor for the wrath of God (which I don't think you agree with).

Okay, there's another angle that we can look at this to determine whether it's talking about literal or metaphorical fire. Well, maybe two other angles. The first one would be that it seems clear to me that one literal event is compared to another in 2 Peter 3:6-7. I don't see why Peter would compare a metaphorical event with the flood.

But, the angle I was thinking of before the other one popped in my head is this...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This passage is clearly about the same event as 2 Peter 3:10-12. So, what is your understanding of the type of destruction that Paul is writing about here from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"?

The word elements is referring to the destruction of ungodly men - the works (ergon) being mentioned in the verse. The earth itself - rocks and trees - does not have "works".

The earth itself is differentiated from the works therein, so it's saying the earth itself, including the works therein will be burned up.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The word ergon (the works being mentioned) is used many, many times in reference to the works of men (a very long list), sometimes to the works of Satan, and sometimes to the works of God.

What "works" are being destroyed by fire? The works of ungodly men are being destroyed - all the rudiments and principles of this fallen world. It's what the word stoicheion means in every other N.T verse where it's used.

Man has taken the physical things that God originally created to fashion them into other forms. Those things will be destroyed. All buildings and other things that man has made using the physical elements that God originally created will be destroyed by fire. And, why not? Should we expect that all the strip clubs, drug houses, the drugs themselves, physical computer servers hosting digital pornography and other evil things, tall buildings built only for the purpose of greedy motivations, nuclear missiles and other things used for wicked purposes and so on will remain standing when Jesus comes?

I do understand but you don't understand what I'm saying, or why I'm saying this:

What "works" are being destroyed by fire? Ungodly men are being destroyed, and their works (ergon) with them - all the rudiments and principles (stoicheion) of this fallen world. It's what the word stoicheion means in every other N.T verse where it's used.

And the reason I posted all that to you is because though you don't say that say that the heavens and earth will be annihilated, yet you seem to agree with those who say that the works and (especially) the elements being destroyed are referring to the annihilation of the planet and of the universe, because you agree with them that elements refers to the elements of the planet.

In a sense you contradict yourself because if the elements of the planet earth are destroyed by fire, there will be no earth left and there will need to be an entirely new creation.

I disagree with that claim. None of that refers to the earth even all the way to its inner core. It's only in relation to the earth's surface and that's why this future fiery event was compared by Peter directly to the flood which also only affected the earth's surface.

 

[complete]

Hello @Scott Downey,

The following references show three spheres. ' The earth', 'A heavenly city', and 'far above all heavens', in Christ Jesus. All three linked to inheritance.

(1)

'For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: ​

yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. ​

But the meek shall inherit the earth; ​

(Psa 37:10 )​

​

'Blessed are the meek: ​

for they shall inherit the earth.'​

(Mat 5:5)​

(2)

'By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, ​

as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,​

the heirs with him of the same promise:​

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, ​

whose builder and maker is God.' ... ... ...​

... ... ... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: ​

wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: ​

for He hath prepared for them a city. ... ... ... '​

(Heb 11:9-10 & 16)​

​

'And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, ​

coming down from God out of heaven, ​

prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, ​

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, ​

and he will dwell with them, ​

and they shall be His people, ​

and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.​

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; ​

and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, ​

neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.'​

(Rev 21:2-4)​

​

(3)

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings ​

in heavenly places in Christ:​

(Eph 1:3)​

​

'That in the dispensation of the fulness of times ​

He might gather together in one all things in Christ, ​

both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:​

In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, ​

being predestinated according to the purpose of Him ​

Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:​

That we should be to the praise of His glory, ​

who first trusted in Christ. In Whom ye also trusted, ​

after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: ​

in Whom also after that ye believed, ​

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Which is the earnest of our inheritance ​

until the redemption of the purchased possession, ​

unto the praise of His glory.'​

(Eph 1:10-14)​

​

'Wherefore He saith, ​

When He ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, ​

and gave gifts unto men.​

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first ​

into the lower parts of the earth?​

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, ​

that he might fill all things.)​

(Eph 4:8-10)​

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree, and where does the Holy City of God go when Christ returns?
It comes down out of heaven onto the new earth, and we all live together as one, God and man.

I view it like Heaven and Earth are joined in that age of the resurrection, or as in there is no separation between them, just as we are joined as one spirit with Him.
1 Cor 6
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Yes we inherit that earth, we also inherit all things.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Hello @Scott Downey,

Thank you for your reply#132, in response to my entry, reply#131. and for sharing your thoughts. I would like to respond to you now, but am not able to at present. Perhaps later? God willing.

In Christ Jesus
Chris