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Featured The Jesuits ... What is their role? Part 1 and 2

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by quietthinker, May 22, 2020.

  1. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    Figures related to papal persecutions aren't limited to just the inquisitions.
    Currently about a third of the world population professes Christianity. The world population is estimated to have grown from 200 million in 600 AD to 545 million in 1600 AD. One third of this population would have grown from about 70 million to about 200 million in this time, with a reasonable average of about 100 million. Voigt felt that 2 witches executed per year for a population of about 4000 was a reasonable number, even in an area that had been Christian for hundreds of years. This amounts to 1/20 of one percent executed per year. Assuming this proportion of executions of all heretics, not just witches, for a thousand years for an average population of 100 million ruled by Rome, gives about 50,000 executions a year or a total of 50 million deaths. Whenever Rome encountered other religions as the Papacy extended its domain, the death toll was higher, so it is reasonable to assume that the average number killed was larger than this. This does not even include those killed during crusades and wars instigated by the Papacy. It is also a steady state figure and would not include those killed during intense periods of the Inquisition. Perhaps this reasoning explains the origin of some of the estimates.

    In support of the extended nature of the persecutions, Deschner notes that in Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain in Chmielnitzki in 1648 (K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987). In 1349 in more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews were murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). In 1257 and 1267 the Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others were exterminated. In the 17th century Catholics sacked the city of Magdeburg, Germany and roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain (D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992). Many other similar incidents could be cited. Thus the persecutions continued for many centuries.

    The Waldenses sent out missionaries on tours of several years, and only about half of them ever came back. This suggests that of the “heretics” existing in the population, at least 10 or 20 percent were executed per year, not necessarily by the Inquisition and not necessarily mentioned in historical records. There must have been a significant number of heretics, or else the Papacy would not have set up the machinery of the Inquisition. Just one percent of heresy would hardly have alarmed them. It must have been a life and death struggle with the Papacy to set up such an elaborate mechanism and maintain it for such a long period of time. So the percentage of heretics must have been at least two percent and probably significantly higher, on the average. If five percent of the heretics were executed each year and two percent of the population were heretics, then 1/10 of one percent of the population would be executed each year. . From 1100 to 1600 the average world population would be about 350 million of which on the average about 100 million would be in Roman Catholic countries. With 1/10 of a percent each year killed there would be 100,000 killed each year, for 500 years, for a total of 50 million killed just during this time period. If the percentage of heretics were four percent and the proportion of heretics killed each year were 10 percent, the total killed during this 500 year period would be 200 million, which appears to be much nearer the truth. Persecutions before 1100 were probably smaller, and persecutions after 1518 were probably considerably more intense.
     
  2. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    As evidence of the number of “heretics,” Brownlee states

    “These Waldenses,” says Rainerus, “were in nearly every country.” “They are multiplied through all lands,” says Sanderus. “They have infested a thousand cities,” says Caeserius. “They spread their contagion through almost the whole Latin world,” says Ciaconius. … Says Newburgh, -- “They became like the sand of the sea; without number; … .”

    n Brownlee, page 351, Appendix 1, citing Newburgh, ii page 13.

    Thus there would have been many “heretics” to persecute. And as the Waldenses existed throughout the period from 1100 to 1600 and continued to send out missionaries, the population of the Papal countries would have always had an exposure to Bible truth. Along the same line, Brownlee states

    I repeat the words of Edgar, whose testimony I prefer to Malte Brun, or any modern papist, who has not entered into the estimates of the comparative nuimbers in ancient times; nor examined the statements of these fathers, and travelers, now quoted by us: “The European, the Asian, and African denominations that dissented from popery were four times more numerous than the partisans of Romanism, when, prior to the Reformation, the papacy shone in all its glory. Popery, instead of universality, which is its vain boast, was never embraced by more than a fifth part of Christendom.” Variations of Popery, p. 67, Dublin edition.

    -- Brownlee, Appendix 1, pp. 352-353.

    The Papacy must have had a very efficient method of eliminating heretics, as Bellarmine stated:

    Argument 2d. ‘ Experience shows that terror is not effective.’ I reply, EXPERIENCE PROVES THE CONTRARY—FOR THE DONATISTS, MANICHEANS, AND ALBIGENSES WERE ROUTED, AND ANNIHILATED BY ARMS.

    -- Robert Bellarmine, Disputationes de Controversiis, Tom. ii, Lib. III, cap. XXII, “Objections Answered,” 1682 edition.

    Bellarmine states that these three groups were “annihilated.” This must also have been the fate of almost all the Waldenses, who were “like the sand of the sea; without number” at one time, and were essentially Protestants. How many other groups were annihilated, swelling the total figures to many millions?

    Concerning the ferocity of the persecutions, Guinness writes

    This part of the prophecy began to receive its fulfillment at the end of the twelfth century, when, at the third Lateran Council (A.D. 1179), the Popedom roused itself collectively to a war of extermination against heretics. Previously to this, separate members of the system, acting alone and independently, had opposed the truth by force and cruelty. But in the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth centuries, Romanism, then in the plenitude of its power, gathered itself together for a great, determined, united, and persistent effort to crush out all that opposed its supremacy, and to clear Christendom of heresy.



    -- Romanism and the Reformation, Lecture 8, p. 200.
     
  3. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    In addition to the above numbers one could include those killed in wars instigated by the papacy, beginning with those against the Arians , the Goths and Vandals being the chief, and continuing down through the centuries even to include the civil war and Vietnam.
    Then, to add to the numbers of those killed by papal wickedness one could include the many thousands of babies murdered in cloistered convents, over many centuries, the torture and abuse and final deaths of nuns, numbering how many no one knows. But even as late as the 19th century these convents, even in the USA, were being forced to open up for officials to discover the lime pits and dungeons, with associated implements of torture.

    I say the above not to bring enmity upon Catholics of today who in no way are responsible for the history of their church. But for Catholics to deny these evidences... And to continue to claim that despite these evidences their church is still 'the one true church" and the church that Jesus built and would never forsake, is bordering on blasphemy.

    The total number of those over the past 1500 years or so directly or indirectly killed by papal policy... Not by just a few bad apples... including all wars on all continents can by some be estimated through population trends to approach 200 million. If even one tenth of that number was the true figure, it is yet totally unjustifiable and beggars belief that there are some here who would attempt to do so.
     
  4. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    The Jesuits are controlled by Rothschild's and the so called Zionist Anti-Christ, we see Pope Francis on TV come to Lord Rothschild sitting in a chair like the Pope has and Pope Francis comes kneeling and kisses his hand, just as all RC do to submit themselves to the Pope.

    We had the leader of the Australian Jesuits in the 1960's come out and say that a bastard group within had over thrown all that they were on about, he was livered about how their order was over run and changed, they were nothing like what the order was once about in Australia. they had changed their spots. so the order was changed so vastly in his opinion and he was the top one, so he would know what was taking place.

    I think that the lead up to WW2 their was great divisions within the RCC that a power game struggle was at hand with in, when ever we see people just happen to die at a crucial point in history one should take note of that something is up behind such. oh how convent that was in the game play one could respond.
    Look at how many people in the military or political just happened to die just at the right point of time one could deduce when investigating into such because they were a threat to the perpetrated lies. they were opening their mouths and jeopardising the narrative that was spun by the powers that be, so clearly they had to be gotten out of the way. because they posed a threat to the lies portrayed to the public by the media by the powers that control and dominate over them. be they Freemason dupes within the media on one hand and their worldly gods the Rothschild's so called Zionist and Jesuits, Islam and so on arms of the Anti-Christ. I am not surprised with such dupes as I know their works, worldly fools all of them.

    When I look into such history I am always surprised at just how convent it is that key people just happened to of died.
     
  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    Not only do I NOT tell others here what they "should" be believing - I don't care.
    My ONLY concern are the lies and misrepresentations perpetuated about Christ's Church by anti-Catholics like YOU and several others here.

    I will always be here to expose you - and YOU will always be angry about it . . .
     
  6. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    To those determined to defend the church and claim it is Christ's church... His body.
    Read the gospels. What's your overwhelming perception as to Who Christ is. Who said the following...
    The devil comes but for to kill, steal, and destroy. I am come that you might have life, and have it in all its abundance.
    When perusing the history of medieval religion, with us wars, persecutions, and coerced confessions etc, which of the above was being represented? Whose body in reality was in operation then? Was the church healing as Jesus does? Or destroying as the devil does?
     
  7. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    What is actually taking place here BoL is that people are exposing your church. This isn't a new thing. It's been going on for centuries... And you are angry because you can't stop it. You are defending the indefensible.
     
  8. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    I didn't even have to read HALF way down before I noticed the enormous LIE above in RED.
    It's actually about the 5th lie in your rant - but this one really caught my eye . . .

    The claim about more Jews being killed than "200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians" is so ridiculously bogus. Three is absoloutely ZERO historical consensus on the number of Christians killed during the Roman persecutions. In fact - the absence of consensus has has given rise to historical revisionists claiming that it never happened in the first place.

    The rest of your nonsense is common revisionist anti-Catholic fodder that cannot be substantiated.
    It SOUNDS good, though to an ignorant person.
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    More of your revisionist nonsense.

    First of all - the executions of heretics were done by STATE governments - NOT the Church. Heresy was bad for commerce because it cause divisions among the people. Anti-heresy laws were written into just about EVERY government in the civilized world.

    As for WHO Christ is - let's let the Word of God define Him:
    - Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6) - and He guaranteed His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
    - The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - which is Christ.
    - The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
    - Jesus identifies His Church with His very SELF (Acts 9:4-5).
    - The Church is Christ's Body and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).


    Christ and His Church are inseparable - so if you don't know His Church - you don't know HIM.
    Good luck with that . . .
     
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No - you're exposing your own ignorance.

    Tell me something - If I find several SDAs who are guilty of some heinous crimes - does that mean your sect is a "False church"??
    OR
    , does it simply mean that you have some bad apples in your bucket?
    Like THESE . . .


    Abuse At SDA Boarding School? | We Represent 10+ SDA Victims‎
    SDA Abuse - Crew Janci LLP: Sexual Abuse Attorneys

    A Global Review Of Child Sex Abuse Cases In The Adventist Church
    Finding Justice for Victims of Sexual Abuse in the Seventh-day Adventist Church
    Seventh-day Adventist church sued over allegations of abuse in youth
    Seventh Day Adventists and Sexual Child Abuse - SAGE Books
    Lawsuit says Adventist church should've prevented teacher's sex abuse
    Adventist Pastor Accused of Sexual Abuse in Office - Courthouse News
    Woman claims Seventh Day Adventists failed to protect her from sex .









     
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  11. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    You have your head in the sand and we all know what we are seeing.
     
  12. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    That demonstrates just how embarrassingly stupid some anti-Catholics are. Their credibility is as vacuous as their minds.
     
  13. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    The difference BoL is that the SDA Church doesn't teach that any of things are okay. It doesn't follow a policy of allowing their members to perpetrated those crimes, not does it follow a policy of permitting them to be ignored, not does it defend them and pretend to justify them. Even less so there was never a time when the church actually promoted those actions as a form of spreading the gospel.
    The same cannot be said for your church. Persecution and the destruction and murder of entire cultures was church policy, based on the teachings and false interpretations of scripture and entrenched tradition.
    Allow me to add something else for you to consider.
    The SDA Church supported apartheid.
    The SDA Church in Germany held no objections to the third Reich.
    The SDA Church segregated coloured people in their schools in the US.
    These practices were wrong. There is no way I can pretend to justify them. I don't minimise their wrong, not do I offer any militating circumstance that offers solace to the guilty. Why not? Because I'm a man, with as much weakness of the flesh as anyone, and if in those leaders positions may have made the same horrendous choices. The thing is though, it wasn't church policy to practice those things. Not at all. They were wicked aberations that should never have happened. The following may offer you some insight from a surprising angle.... Yet despite this, the above sadly still happened... FB_IMG_1591092344677.jpg

    Yep, my church has some warts as well. But today I stand as an official in my local church enacting policy and safe practice to avoid any of the above happening again. And we have such people doing likewise so over the world, with our central conference leading the way.

    Can you give the same assurances that the Vatican now had gone beyond those policies that allowed for, encouraged, and even instigated the persecution of 10s of millions of innocent Christians, Jews, and Muslims over 10 centuries of predatory power hungry devastation on at least 3 continents?

    And have the Jesuits repented of their crimes and altered their ambitions if world dominion on behalf of the pope?

    Does the Vatican now fully and without reservation endorse religious liberty in it's truest sense, not just for itself, but even for those who may wish not to worship at all?
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Like I've told your fellow lying anti-Catholics:
    Stop lying and I'll simply go away . . .
     
  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    THIS time, I didn't even have to read past your FIRST sentence to catch you in yet another LIE.

    I formally challenge you to show me the Catholic teaching - from the Catechism that condones ANY sin committed by individuals within the Catholic Church. It doesn't exist.

    Your second lie in RED is also noted. As I informed you before - history shows us that the execution and torture of heretics were matters of STATE - not Church policies.
    Remember - policies like the Spanishg Inquisitions were promulgated by King Ferdinand - NOT the Pope, so get your "facts" straight.

    As to your third lie in RED - your claim of "tens of millions" would be laughable if it wasn't so abominably dishonest and historically-bankrupt.
     
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  16. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    God ultimately has the last word. We will all know soon enough who the liar is.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Yup - all you need do is look in a mirror.

    Remember - bearing false witness is an abomination before God (Exod. 20:16) - and liars will have NO part in the kingdom of Heaven (Rev. 21:8) . . .
     
  18. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    First, I didn't say that the catechism taught that persecution was okay. Church policy and erroneous interpretations of scripture and a wrong understand of the character of God led to wrong decisions which became traditions which affected church policy. Some of the writings of the church fathers can be blamed for that... Such as those of Thomas Aquinas.
    Second, to claim that the state was solely responsible for the persecutions... The crusades... The inquisitions... Is simply evidence that you haven't progressed at all past the mental gymnastics exhibited by Adam and Eve in the garden... She gave me to eat... He fooled me... The state took my clothes off and made me naked.

    Pope Boniface VIII (reigned 1294- 1303): "We are taught by the words of the Gospel that in this Church and under her control there are two swords, the spiritual and the temporal . . . both of these, i.e., the spiritual and the temporal swords, are under the control of the Church. The first is wielded by the Church; the second is wielded on behalf of the church. The first is wielded by the hands of the priest, the second by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the wish and by the permission of the priests. Sword must be subordinate to sword, and it is only fitting that the temporal authority should be subject to the spiritual" (Unam Sanctam)

    From a paper written for study at University...
    Medieval thinkers held that Christian society was one, embracing all men. To satisfy human needs God had decreed that · this society should be ruled by two governments, which derived not only their reason for being but also their power from Him. The spiritual government, the sacerdotium, was entrusted to the Church and the temporal, the imperium or regnum, to the state. There were at least four important corollaries which could be drawn from the foregoing statements.
    1) Both church and state were sanctified by God as instruments of His will. The powers, responsibilities, and limitations of each would have to be defined with this fact in mind.
    2) The areas in which church and state operated in this universal society were distinguishable, but not really separate. Conflicts, should they arise, would resemble a family quarrel rather than a fight between strangers.
    3) An attitude of helpfulness had to prevail between church and state. Although each had its own functions to perform, in times of emergency each was expected to come to the assistance of the other.
    (4 Finally, because souls were considered more important than bodies, the Church was held to be more important than the state. Ordinarily, this corollary might make little practical difference in the operations of either institution, but in a crisis (like in the removing of heretics) it would give the Church precedence in all things.
     
  19. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    The mistakes and sins of Catholics - either individually or in groups, including clergy and even Popes - don’t prove that the Catholic Church is not what she claims to be: The one, true Church founded by Jesus Christ.
    If not for the Catholic Crusades, Europe - and therefore the seat of Christianity - would have been overrun by Islam. But don’t let that important fact temper your hatred of the Catholic Church.
     
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  20. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    When I said “deserved extinction”, I didn’t mean the death of anyone, but the death of their heretical cult as an organisation.

    Furthermore, if the Cathars didn’t believe in bodily resurrection, they weren’t even Christians.
    The Cathars were so dumb, they didn’t realize that without children, there is no future - any society that is too stupid to even reproduce doesn’t to survive.
     
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