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Featured The Jesuits ... What is their role? Part 1 and 2

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by quietthinker, May 22, 2020.

  1. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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  2. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    Even more dumb are the ones who actually accept that such a stupid concept was one of their beliefs, as opposed to one made up by their enemies to justify their extermination to a gullible and superstitious populace.
    And to think we are so stupid to accept this stupidity as one of their core beliefs is even more ridiculous. We are not that gullible and we can't be frightened into thinking they are some menace to society. I think you need to diversify some of your sources outside the propaganda of your church, and ask yourself why is it that all the church's enemies which they warred against and persecuted were so emphatically and incredibly infantile and backward in the beliefs but the church was the only institution that reported on it? Historians of the day and time said no such things, in fact in many cases quite the opposite.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  3. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    How do you know that? How many years of Jesuit education did you get?
    So who were the good guys in this story? The Jesuits or the Church?
    That is what Jesus wants, the whole world to be Catholic - “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Matt 28:19).

    But if by “one world Catholic religion” you mean the bizarre, inter-faith attempts at religious unity that some modernist dreamers (like the late Pope. John Paul II used to) promote, that perverse movement is (a) not Catholic; and (b) is practically dead in the water. Your claim that it is “well under way” is rather optimistic - the vast majority of Catholics don’t support it, never discuss it and never even think about it. About the only hint of it in mainstream Catholicism is the very occasion prayer offered by a priest for “religious freedom” - hardly evidence of a one-world “Catholic” religion.
    Of course. He was some kind of New Age space-cadet whose teaching and publications were seriously censored by the Catholic Church. In 1962, Pope John XII declared that the works of P. T de Chardin “are replete with … serious errors which offend Catholic doctrine”. He was also implicated in the Piltdown Man (evolution) hoax.
    In my opinion, the Jesuit order has in general fallen from grace and is unfortunately a far cry from what it used to be, pre-twentieth century. Most Jesuits these days seem to be rabid cultural-Marxists who have sold out to the world and support all manner of Loony Left causes (most USA Jesuits probably vote for the Democrats; elsewhere most of them probably vote for the Greens). It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them aren’t even believers anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  4. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    No that's not what I meant. I was asking if you deserved death because of being a sinner.
     
  5. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    'any man who calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire'.....Jesus. Why do you think he said that?
     
  6. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Sooooo let me see if I understand your theory: You believe that there is no way that man can know the Truth of Scripture? Or in this case if @Brakelite2 or @BreadOfLife is right or wrong in their given interpretation of Scripture?

    How did man "know" what books belonged in Scripture?

    Curious Mary
     
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  7. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmmm.....so you and @Brakelite2 agree on everything? I KNOW you don't sooooo when you do disagree, which one of you has their "head in the sand"?

    Curious Mary
     
  8. Illuminator

    Illuminator Active Member

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    Because it is, and we don't EXCLUDE separated brethren from the One True Church.
    if it wasn't founded by Jesus, then by whom???
    No, your doctrine is limited to the written word alone, and nowhere in Scripture is "Word of God" limited to the written word alone. Catholic doctrine does not CONTRADICT the written word, and cannot be proven otherwise. So you misrepresent, play word games, and deny the facts of history.
     
  9. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Your opinion.
    Not my Opinion.

    Christ Jesus established HIS Church and in Jesus' words called HIS Church...possessively HIS, when He possessively used the term
    "My".

    Matt: 16:18 ..."My Church"

    And oops...Jesus Did not mention the term "catholic".

    [QUOTH] and we don't EXCLUDE separated brethren from the One True Church.[/QUOTE]

    Don't exclude the Separated? :confused:
    Exclude from what?
    Separated from what?

    Most likely a Gentile named Ignatius who coined the term "catholic" in 107 AD...

    oops, Jesus was already dead and risen over a hundred years before the "term" catholic.

    Eh, I'm comfortable with Jesus' written Doctrine.

    That is you Opinion.
    Not mine.

    Of course, what does not appear in Scripture can be verified with Scripture.

    Look you have your opinions and I have mine.

    It's not a secret Gentile Men calling themselves Catholic have for centuries written their Opinions, (without, as you imply it being necessary to be verified in Scripture) so what? I have no obligation to agree with them. If you do, so what?
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    What if it is proven to be the One False Church?

    Every Catholic owes it to himself/herself to carefully search the Scriptures and see if Catholic beliefs and practices are supported by the Bible.
     
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  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Christians had already established the canon of Scripture LONG BEFORE the Catholic church came into existence (by the 2nd century). And Christ had already established the Old Testament WITHOUT THE APOCRYPHA as the true Hebrew Bible.
     
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  12. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Fascinating.....You must know something about history that I don’t know about.

    From what historical writing are you referring to that contains a list of the books of the Bible?

    Curious Mary
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You really need to educate yourself instead of continuing to promote the myth that the Catholic Church gave us our Bibles.
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    YOU said that it was "Church policy". I asked you to show me this official policy and you failed.

    ALL you showed me was the OPINION of a medieval Pope. I already told you that there were bad people within the Church since the beginning - and that Jesus warned of this (Matt. 7:15-20). This does NOT, however, negate the promises of Christ that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against it. It does NOT cancel out His guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).

    Finally - it does NOT invalidate the God-given AUTHORITY of Christ's Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).
    At best - it shows what I've been saying all along: In EVERY era of the Church, you are going to find some rotten apples . . .


    PS - The Crusades don't even belong in this conversation - so do your homework.
     
  15. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, for whatever Bible was derived from Rome came from the hand of an awful individual, Jerome. An offensive rude egotistical bad tempered fella whose Vulgate was a disaster. Meanwhile, the churches in the wilderness, those which were not in league with the empire and Constantine's political ambitions had the scriptures already from Lucian and in the more common itala... This being the foundation of the Kjv and was used for centuries such as in the Celtic church of Britain, long before the Roman apostasy set foot there.
     
  16. Brakelite2

    Brakelite2 Well-Known Member

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    Now who's lying? You asked me to show you from the catechism, where the church officially sanctioned persecution. I never claimed it was a catechism tenet. I said z yes, church policy, which I proved was indeed a fact. And many Popes and their underlings carried out that policy to great affect... And to the cost of many millions of human souls. Drunk with the blood of the saints.
    The Albigensian crusade belongs in every conversation which touches on papal dominion and persecution. The entire town of Toulouse was almost obliterated by armies sent to root out heretics at the behest of their papal masters. It is reported that one soldier asked his officer, how do we tell the heretics from the others, the truly coming, it doesn't matter. Kill them all... The devil knows his own.
     
  17. Illuminator

    Illuminator Active Member

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    You can't answer Marymog's question without resorting to false history.

    "We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists--that with them is the Word of God, which we received from them; otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."- Martin Luther's sermon on John 16 [LW 24]

    A BRIEF TIMELINE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON
    New Testament Period (c.35-90)
    In this period there is little formal sense of a Canon of Scripture

    Apostolic Fathers (90-160)
    Summary: The New Testament is still not clearly distinguished qualitatively from other Christian writings
    Polycarp first uses all four Gospels now in Scripture
    Acts Scarcely known or quoted

    Irenaeus to Origen (160-250)
    Summary: Awareness of a Canon begins towards the end of the 2nd century
    Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria first use phrase New Testament

    Gospels
    Accepted
    Acts Gradually accepted

    Origen to Nicaea (250-325)
    Summary: The epistles and Revelation are still being disputed

    Council of Nicaea (325)
    Questions canonicity of James, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Jude

    From 325 to the Council of Carthage (397)
    Summary: Athanasius first lists our present 27 New Testament books as such in 367. Disputes still persist concerning several books, almost right up until 397, when the Canon is authoritatively closed.

    Sources; ALL PROTESTANT
    1) Douglas, J.D., ed., New Bible Dictionary, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1962 ed., 194-98.
    2) Cross, F.L., and E.A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 2nd ed., 1983, 232,300,309-10,626,641,724,1049,1069;
    3) Geisler, Norman L. & William E. Nix, From God to Us: How We Got Our Bible, Chicago: Moody Press, 1974, 109-12,117-25.

    The Council of Carthage, canon 36, lists 73 books. There is no evidence that a 66 book canon existed until after the 14th century.

    Enoch111 can disagree with Luther and present day Protestant scholars all he wants, but it demonstrates the chaos and division within his own system.
     
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  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Time for a history lesson . . .

    The main Jewish advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiva, a 2nd century rabbi who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kohkba was the “real Messiah” during the 2nd Jewish revolt (circa 132 AD). So – YOU hold to a POST Christ, POST-Temple OT Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE prophet who proclaimed a FALSE Christ.
    Nice goin’ . . .

    After the Protestant Revolt the 16th century, you had denominations popping up everywhere. They chose to go with this unofficial Rabbinical Jewish canon. Do you know WHY? It’s because that canon, which removed the 7 Books that contained some very Catholic teachings - like Purgatory and prayers for the dead.

    It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see roughly 200 references to them.

    As for WHO declared the Canon of Scripture – and the New Testament that YOU all adhere to – it was the Catholic Church. EVERY private Canon before that belonged to a CATHOLIC.

    - The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
    - It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
    - At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
    - 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
    - 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

    The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

    THEM’S the historical facts . . .
     
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  19. Illuminator

    Illuminator Active Member

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    Scholarly documentation please. Lies and falsehoods is not discussion, it's persecution. Including your demonizing St. Jerome.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And there you go lying again.

    It was NEVER Church "policy" to execute heretics. It MAY have been the opinion of some - but NEVER official policy.
    Will your lies never end??
    Show me the official decree from the Pope that ordered ANY army to "slaughter" the Albigenses.
    You see - the Catholic Church is funny about things like that. The Church documents EVERYTHING - so this should be EASY for you to produce.

    And before you make idiotic comments like the one above in RED - show the historical documentation that substantiates it.
     
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