The Law & The Gospel

[ladodgers6]

I share this gem so that people will understand what is at stake in this Modern Christian era;namely the Pure Gospel that Paul preached.Hope you enjoy.

The Law & The Gospel
by Michael S. Horton
© 1996 The White Horse Inn

In order to recover the sufficiency of Scripture we must once again learn to distinguish the Law and the Gospel as the "two words" of Scripture. For the Reformers, it was not enough to believe in inerrancy. Since Rome also had a high view of Scripture in theory, the Reformers were not criticizing the church for denying its divine character. Rather, they argued that Rome subverted its high view of Scripture by the addition of other words and by failing to read and proclaim Scripture according to its most obvious sense.

At the heart of the reformation's hermeneutics was the distinction between "Law" and "Gospel." For the Reformers, this was not equivalent to "Old Testament" and "New Testament;" rather, it meant, in the words of Theodore Beza, "We divide this Word into two principal parts or kinds: the one is called the 'Law,' the other the 'Gospel.' For all the rest can be gathered under the one or other of these two headings." The Law "is written by nature in our hearts," while "What we call the Gospel (Good News) is a doctrine which is not at all in us by nature, but which is revealed from Heaven (Mt. 16:17; John 1:13)." The Law leads us to Christ in the Gospel by condemning us and causing us to despair of our own "righteousness." "Ignorance of this distinction between Law and Gospel," Beza wrote, "is one of the principal sources of the abuses which corrupted and still corrupt Christianity."1

Luther made this hermeneutic central, but both traditions of the Protestant Reformation jointly affirm this key distinction. In much of medieval preaching, the Law and Gospel were so confused that the "Good News" seemed to be that Jesus was a "kinder, gentler Moses," who softened the Law into easier exhortations, such as loving God and neighbor from the heart. The Reformers saw Rome as teaching that the Gospel was simply an easier "law" than that of the Old Testament. Instead of following a lot of rules, God expects only love and heartfelt surrender. Calvin replied, "As if we could think of anything more difficult than to love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our strength! Compared with this law, everything could be considered easy...[For] the law cannot do anything else than to accuse and blame all to a man, to convict, and, as it were, apprehend them; in fine, to condemn them in God's judgment: that God alone may justify, that all flesh may keep silence before him."2 Thus, Calvin observes, Rome could only see the Gospel as that which enables believers to become righteous by obedience and that which is "a compensation for their lack," not realizing that the Law requires perfection, not approximation.3

Of course, no one claims to have arrived at perfection, and yet, Calvin says many do claim "to have yielded completely to God, [claiming that] they have kept the law in part and are, in respect to this part, righteous."4 Only the terror of the Law can shake us of this self-confidence. Thus, the Law condemns and drives us to Christ, so that the Gospel can comfort without any threats or exhortations that might lead to doubt. In one of his earliest writings, Calvin defended this evangelical distinction between Law and Gospel: All this will readily be understood by describing the Law and describing the Gospel and then comparing them. Therefore, the Gospel is the message, the salvation-bringing proclamation concerning Christ that he was sent by God the Father...to procure eternal life. The Law is contained in precepts, it threatens, it burdens, it promises no goodwill. The Gospel acts without threats, it does not drive one on by precepts, but rather teaches us about the supreme goodwill of God towards us. Let whoever therefore is desirous of having a plain and honest understanding of the Gospel, test everything by the above descriptions of the Law and the Gospel. Those who do not follow this method of treatment will never be adequately versed in the Philosophy of Christ.5

While the Law continues to guide the believer in the Christian life, Calvin insists that it can never be confused with the Good News. Even after conversion, the believer is in desperate need of the Gospel because he reads the commands, exhortations, threats, and warnings of the Law and often wavers in his certain confidence because he does not see in himself this righteousness that is required. Am I really surrendered? Have I truly yielded in every area of my life? What if I have not experienced the same things that other Christians regard as normative? Do I really possess the Holy Spirit? What if I fall into serious sin? These are questions that we all face in our own lives. What will restore our peace and hope in the face of such questions? The Reformers, with the prophets and apostles, were convinced that only the Gospel could bring such comfort to the struggling Christian.

Without this constant emphasis in preaching, one can never truly worship or serve God in liberty, for his gaze will always be fastened on himself--either in despair or self-righteousness--rather than on Christ. Law and Gospel must both ever be preached, both for conviction and instruction, but the conscience will never rest, Calvin says, so long as Gospel is mixed with Law. "Consequently, this Gospel does not impose any commands, but rather reveals God's goodness, his mercy and his benefits."6 This distinction, Calvin says with Luther and the other Reformers, marks the difference between Christianity and paganism: "All who deny this turn the whole of the Gospel upside down; they utterly bury Christ, and destroy all true worship of God."7

Ursinus, primary author of the Heidelberg Catechism, said that the Law-Gospel distinction has "comprehended the sum and substance of the sacred Scriptures," are "the chief and general divisions of the holy scriptures, and comprise the entire doctrine comprehended therein."8 To confuse them is to corrupt the Faith at its core.9 While the Law must be preached as divine instruction for the Christian life, it must never be used to shake believers from the confidence that Christ is their "righteousness, holiness and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30). The believer goes to the Law and loves that Law for its divine wisdom, for it reveals the will of the One to whom we are now reconciled by the Gospel. But the believer cannot find pardon, mercy, victory, or even the power to obey it, by going to the Law itself any more after his conversion than before. It is still always the Law that commands and the Gospel that gives. This is why every sermon must be carefully crafted on this foundational distinction.

As he watched the Baptist Church in England give way to moralism in the so-called "Down-grade Controversy," Charles Spurgeon declared, "There is no point on which men make greater mistakes than on the relation which exists between the law and the gospel. Some men put the law instead of the gospel; others put gospel instead of the law. A certain class maintains that the law and the gospel are mixed...These men understand not the truth and are false teachers."10

In our day, these categories are once again confused in even the most conservative churches. Even where the categories of psychology, marketing and politics do not replace those of Law and Gospel, much of evangelical preaching today softens the Law and confuses the Gospel with exhortations, often leaving people with the impression that God does not expect the perfect righteousness prescribed in the Law, but a generally good heart and attitude and avoidance of major sins. A gentle moralism prevails in much of evangelical preaching today and one rarely hears the Law preached as God's condemnation and wrath, but as helpful suggestions for a more fulfilled life. In the place of God's Law, helpful tips for practical living are often offered. (In one large conservative church in which I preached recently, the sermon was identified in the program as "Lifestyle Perspectives." Only occasionally was one reminded that it was a church service and not a Rotary meeting.) The piety and faith of the biblical characters are often preached as examples to imitate, along with Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin. As in Protestant liberalism, such preaching often fails to hold Christ forth as the divine savior of sinners, but instead as the coach whose play-book will show us how to achieve victory.

Sometimes it is due less to conviction than to a lack of precision. For instance, we often hear calls to "live the Gospel," and yet, nowhere in Scripture are we called to "live the Gospel." Instead, we are told to believe the Gospel and obey the Law, receiving God's favor from the one and God's guidance from the other. The Gospel--or Good News--is not that God will help us achieve his favor with his help, but that someone else lived the Law in our place and fulfilled all righteousness. Others confuse the Law and Gospel by replacing the demands of the Law with the simple command to "surrender all" or "make Jesus Lord and Savior," as if this one little work secured eternal life. Earlier this century, J. Gresham Machen declared, "According to modern liberalism, faith is essentially the same as 'making Christ master' of one's life...But that simply means that salvation is thought to be obtained by our obedience to the commands of Christ. Such teaching is just a sublimated form of legalism."11 In another work, Machen added, What good does it do to me to tell me that the type of religion presented in the Bible is a very fine type of religion and that the thing for me to do is just to start practicing that type of religion now?...I will tell you, my friend. It does me not one tiniest little bit of good...What I need first of all is not exhortation, but a gospel, not directions for saving myself but knowledge of how God has saved me. Have you any good news? That is the question that I ask of you. I know your exhortations will not help me. But if anything has been done to save me, will you not tell me the facts?12
Does that mean that the Word of God does not command our obedience or that such obedience is optional? Certainly not! But it does mean that obedience must not be confused with the Gospel. Our best obedience is corrupted, so how could that be good news? The Gospel is that Christ was crucified for our sins and was raised for our justification. The Gospel produces new life, new experiences, and a new obedience, but too often we confuse the fruit or effects with the Gospel itself. Nothing that happens within us is, properly speaking, "Gospel," but it is the Gospel's effect. Paul instructs us, "Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ..." (Phil. 1:27). While the Gospel contains no commands or threats, the Law indeed does and the Christian is still obligated to both "words" he hears from the mouth of God. Like the Godhead or the two natures of Christ, we must neither divorce nor confuse Law and Gospel.

When the Law is softened into gentle promises and the Gospel is hardened into conditions and exhortations, the believer often finds himself in a deplorable state. For those who know their own hearts, preaching that tries to tone down the Law by assuring them that God looks on the heart comes as bad news, not good news: "The heart is deceitful above all things..." (Jer. 17:9). Many Christians have experienced the confusion of Law and Gospel in their diet, where the Gospel was free and unconditional when they became believers, but is now pushed into the background to make room for an almost exclusive emphasis on exhortations. Again, it is not that exhortations do not have their place, but they must never be confused with the Gospel and that Gospel of divine forgiveness is as important for sinful believers to hear as it is for unbelievers. Nor can we assume that believers ever progress beyond the stage where they need to hear the Gospel, as if the Good News ended at conversion. For, as Calvin said, "We are all partly unbelievers throughout our lives." We must constantly hear God's promise in order to counter the doubts and fears that are natural to us.

But there are many, especially in our narcissistic age, whose ignorance of the Law leads them into a carnal security. Thus, people often conclude that they are "safe and secure from all alarm" because they walked an aisle, prayed a prayer, or signed a card, even though they have never had to give up their own fig leaves in order to be clothed with the righteousness of the Lamb of God. Or perhaps, although they have not perfectly loved God and neighbor, they conclude that they are at least "yielded," "surrendered," or "letting the Spirit have his way"; that they are "living in victory over all known sin" and enjoying the "higher life." Deluding themselves and others, they need to be stripped of their fig leaves in order to be clothed with the skins of the Lamb of God. Thus, Machen writes, A new and more powerful proclamation of law is perhaps the most pressing need of the hour; men would have little difficulty with the gospel if they had only learned the lesson of the law. As it is, they are turning aside from the Christian pathway; they are turning to the village of Morality, and to the house of Mr. Legality, who is reported to be very skillful in relieving men of their burdens... 'Making Christ Master' in the life, putting into practice 'the principles of Christ' by one's own efforts--these are merely new ways of earning salvation by one's obedience to God's commands. And they are undertaken because of a lax view of what those commands are. So it always is: a low view of law always brings legalism in religion; a high view of law makes a man a seeker after grace.13

We must, therefore, recover Law and Gospel, and with such preaching, the Christocentric message of Scripture, or no good will come of our work, regardless of how committed we are to inerrancy. We cannot say that we are preaching the Word of God unless we are distinctly and clearly proclaiming both God's judgment and his justification as the regular diet in our congregations. To recover Scripture's sufficiency we must therefore, like the Reformers, recover the distinctions between Law and Gospel.

NOTES:
1 Theodore Beza, The Christian Faith, trans. by James Clark (Focus Christian Ministries Trust, 1992), 40-1. Published first at Geneva in 1558 as the Confession de foi du chretien.
2 Calvin, 2.7.5 -1536 Institutes, trans. by F. L. Battles (Eerdmans, 1975), 30-1; cf. 1559 Institutes 2.11.10.
3 Calvin, 1559 Institutes, 3.14.13.
4 Ibid.
5 Battles edition of 1536 edition, op. cit., 365. Delivered by Nicolas Cop on his assumption of the rectorship of the University of Paris; there is a wide consensus among Calvin scholars that Calvin was the author.
6 Ibid., p. 366.
7 Ibid., p. 369.
8 Ursinus, Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism (Presbyterian and Reformed, from Second American Edition, 1852), p. 2.
9 Ibid, p. 2.
10 Charles Spurgeon, New Park Street Pulpit, vol.1 (Pilgrim Publications, 1975), p. 285.
11 J. Gresham Machen, Christianity & Liberalism (Erdmans, 1923), p. 143.
12 J. Gresham Machen, Christian Faith in the Modern World (Macmillan, 1936), p. 57.
13 J. Gresham Machen, What is Faith? (Macmillan, 1925), pp. 137, 139, 152.

 

[Barrd]

I agree...the faith once entrusted to the Saints of God is certainly in jeopardy. But we don't need any outside sources. We don't need any "doctrines", we need not concern ourselves with such things as "exegesis" or "hermeneutics"...we need not bother with "isms"...
All we need is the Word of God.
The Bible is meant to be understood by simple people. Fishermen and carpenters, and the like. No fancy shmancy degrees required...in fact, Paul's elite education did not help him to recognize his Messiah and King...it wasn't until Jesus had knocked him off his high horse, and blinded him that he saw the truth.
Perhaps we all need to be knocked off of our own high horses...

According to Jesus, we need to become like children. Oh, may we all become as trusting as little children, as we read the words of the Lord...


The Law from the Gospel:

Some said Jesus did away with the ten commandments. They say that by leading a sinless life, He fulfilled them for us. Although it is true that Jesus lead a sinless life (Heb 4:15), does that mean He wanted us to continue in sin? What did Jesus teach about each of the ten commandments? At risk of repetition, His teachings are quoted in this section as often as they are quoted in the New Testament. Before you read them, ask yourself, if Jesus was doing away with the ten commandments, why would He have spent so much time teaching people to keep them and allowed so much space in the New Testament to be devoted to them?
Commandment 1 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).
Commandment 2 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20).
Commandment 3 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20).
Commandment 4 "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).
Commandment 5 "For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 6 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 7 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22).
Commandment 8 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 9 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).
Commandment 10 "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15:10).
So it is clear that Jesus taught everyone of the ten commandments and that he also kept them.

http://www.cogwriter.com/command.htm

You will find no bibliography here.
Please notice that the one and only source used here is the Bible...the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, and none other.

 

[mjrhealth]

All we need is the Word of God.

Yep all we need is Jesus, He will show us the way, his burden is light.

 

[ladodgers6]

I agree...the faith once entrusted to the Saints of God is certainly in jeopardy. But we don't need any outside sources. We don't need any "doctrines", we need not concern ourselves with such things as "exegesis" or "hermeneutics"...we need not bother with "isms"...
All we need is the Word of God.
The Bible is meant to be understood by simple people. Fishermen and carpenters, and the like. No fancy shmancy degrees required...in fact, Paul's elite education did not help him to recognize his Messiah and King...it wasn't until Jesus had knocked him off his high horse, and blinded him that he saw the truth.
Perhaps we all need to be knocked off of our own high horses...

According to Jesus, we need to become like children. Oh, may we all become as trusting as little children, as we read the words of the Lord...


The Law from the Gospel:

Some said Jesus did away with the ten commandments. They say that by leading a sinless life, He fulfilled them for us. Although it is true that Jesus lead a sinless life (Heb 4:15), does that mean He wanted us to continue in sin? What did Jesus teach about each of the ten commandments? At risk of repetition, His teachings are quoted in this section as often as they are quoted in the New Testament. Before you read them, ask yourself, if Jesus was doing away with the ten commandments, why would He have spent so much time teaching people to keep them and allowed so much space in the New Testament to be devoted to them?
Commandment 1 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).
Commandment 2 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20).
Commandment 3 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20).
Commandment 4 "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).
Commandment 5 "For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 6 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 7 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22).
Commandment 8 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 9 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).
Commandment 10 "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15:10).
So it is clear that Jesus taught everyone of the ten commandments and that he also kept them.

http://www.cogwriter.com/command.htm

You will find no bibliography here.
Please notice that the one and only source used here is the Bible...the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, and none other.

Wow! I use too think this way. But not anymore. I strongly encourage people to think about their Faith. Study the word of God and ponder upon it. Challenge everything that people tell you, including me. Seek the truth! This thinking of not to study the word of God, and having no Doctrines or ism', is plain ignorance people. This is the perfect storm for false teachers to deceive you. Be like the Bereans and challenge everything. People who say to you that God's promise can be broken are wrong. His Covenant of Redemption cannot be stopped. Nobody is greater then the Father! You show these people plain scripture that contradicts their beliefs and instead of them saying I was wrong, that blow more smoke and say we are taking it out of context. When Christ says that his sheep WILL NEVER PERISH. Are we to think it means something else??? How absurd!!! The Doctrines of Grace are essential to the Christian life. To able to preach and teach it, and especially defend it against any false teachers.

God made a PROMISE TO ABRAHAM. Look for in Genesis 15. And cross reference it to the Galatians where Paul using this same PROMISE GOD MADE ABRAHAM!

Know what you believe and why you believe it. And please read and study your Bible and use all the resources at your disposal. Like old books of the past and present books. I would strongly recommend you read Justification By Faith by James Buchanan. You can google the name and get free articles.

 

[Barrd]

Wow! I use too think this way. But not anymore. I strongly encourage people to think about their Faith. Study the word of God and ponder upon it. Challenge everything that people tell you, including me. Seek the truth! This thinking of not to study the word of God, and having no Doctrines or ism', is plain ignorance people. This is the perfect storm for false teachers to deceive you. Be like the Bereans and challenge everything.

Obviously, you did not read the entire post. What I actually said is that the Bible is intended for simple people, like fishermen, or carpenters, or housewives. I certainly never said that we do not need to study the Bible. Of course, we need to study it....the entire Bible, not just a hand full of "feel good" passages. If you had actually read my entire post, you would have seen that every passage quoted is from the Gospels. They are words that were spoken by the Lord, Himself. You remember Him...men call Him Jesus.

People who say to you that God's promise can be broken are wrong. His Covenant of Redemption cannot be stopped. Nobody is greater then the Father! You show these people plain scripture that contradicts their beliefs and instead of them saying I was wrong, that blow more smoke and say we are taking it out of context. When Christ says that his sheep WILL NEVER PERISH. Are we to think it means something else??? How absurd!!! The Doctrines of Grace are essential to the Christian life. To able to preach and teach it, and especially defend it against any false teachers.

Nobody is saying that God's promises are ever broken. However, once again, we need to take all scripture into account. Every single verse...not just a handful of "feel good" verses...but every single verse. If take what you like and reject what you don't like, then it isn't the Bible you are believing...it is yourself...as St. Augustine once said. Now, while it is true that God will never break His promise, it is also true that the human heart is desperately wicked. We can walk away from God. The Bible is full of examples of people who did just that.


What did Jesus actually say about His sheep?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

You are concentrating on the second of these two verses, where Jesus promises His sheep eternal life, and states that no man can pluck them from His hand. It's a beautiful verse, with a glorious promise.
But you have not considered verse 27. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice. They are listening to Him. And they follow Him. They hear what He says to them, and they obey Him.

Elsewhere, He says that they will not listen to the voice of strangers:

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

And did you notice? Again, He says that His sheep follow Him. They hear Him, and they obey Him.

They will not follow a stranger. They will run from a stranger, because they do not recognize his voice.

God made a PROMISE TO ABRAHAM. Look for in Genesis 15. And cross reference it to the Galatians where Paul using this same PROMISE GOD MADE ABRAHAM!

Genesis 15 talks about the "Promised Land". God made a few promises to Abraham.

It seems to me that the important promise is this:

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

This is the promise of the Messiah who would come...the most glorious promise of all. All the nations of the earth would be blessed through Abraham's seed.
And notice...why did God make this precious promise to Abraham?

"because thou hast obeyed my voice."

God demands obedience...and God rewards obedience. God's promises are for those who obey Him.

Know what you believe and why you believe it. And please read and study your Bible and use all the resources at your disposal. Like old books of the past and present books. I would strongly recommend you read Justification By Faith by James Buchanan. You can google the name and get free articles.

There is certainly nothing wrong with reading books! No writer would ever tell you not to read books, fevvinsakes!
But when it comes to believing what God has said, or believing what some writer thinks God may have said...well, I should think the answer is obvious.
If you want to truly know what God has said, why would you depend on some writer's opinions, when you have the Word of God, Himself? Do you really think God needs some writer to tell Him what He meant when He said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I don't need some writer to explain that to me.
I love Him...therefore I will strive to keep His commandments.

I care not what others may do. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[Barrd]

Why do you think that God told us, through the mouth of His servant David, not to lean on our own understanding?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Why do you suppose we are admonished not to be wise in our own eyes?

Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Just as our works are as filthy rags before a Holy God, so is all of our much vaunted "scholarship" nothing but foolishness before His omniscience.

If you are truly seeking after wisdom, I will whisper in your ear, and you will know where to find it:

Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

But, I tell you, there will be fine, learned scholars left standing outside the gate, while those with simple, childish hearts are welcomed inside.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


And that's what God has to say about it.

 

[IanLC]

I have to say I agree with you "The Barrd" take me to the Word! I don't need another angel, priest, minister, vision, dream or prophecy just give me the WORD! Many claim that their own interpretation comes from the Spirit yet there are so many contradictions in what "MAN says comes from the Spirit". And my take is that the Spirit of the Lord is not schizophrenic and all these interpretations are not coming from Him because He is the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and that of unity (Acts 2:1)! God is Immutable He changes not (Malachi 3:6) thus what principles He establishes in the Old Testament He holds too in the New! For the New is the fulfillment of the Old(Matthew 5:17)! Jesus said "lo I come in the volume of the book (full, entire, complete) that was written of me" (Hebrews 10:7).

 

[Barrd]

I have to say I agree with you "The Barrd" take me to the Word! I don't need another angel, priest, minister, vision, dream or prophecy just give me the WORD! Many claim that their own interpretation comes from the Spirit yet there are so many contradictions in what "MAN says comes from the Spirit". And my take is that the Spirit of the Lord is not schizophrenic and all these interpretations are not coming from Him because He is the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and that of unity (Acts 2:1)! God is Immutable He changes not (Malachi 3:6) thus what principles He establishes in the Old Testament He holds too in the New! For the New is the fulfillment of the Old(Matthew 5:17)! Jesus said "lo I come in the volume of the book (full, entire, complete) that was written of me" (Hebrews 10:7).

Just the simple Word of God.
That is all we need...

 

[Jun2u]

Nobody is saying that God's promises are ever broken. However, once again, we need to take all scripture into account. Every single verse...not just a handful of "feel good" verses...but every single verse.

Yes, by comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual, however, there are people whom God will send a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. These are they that say God's salvation is insufficient, that after a person has been given eternal life he can still fall away. This is an impossibility!!! “Eternal” means forever. How can anyone lose something that is eternal in character?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
You are concentrating on the second of these two verses, where Jesus promises His sheep eternal life, and states that no man can pluck them from His hand. It's a beautiful verse, with a glorious promise.
But you have not considered verse 27. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice. They are listening to Him. And they follow Him. They hear what He says to them, and they obey Him.

The phrase, “My sheep hear my voice” in John 10:27, is metaphorical language that really mean the “Word of God” and only the true believers can hear and follow the Word (Bible), and the rest are delusional.

They will not follow a stranger. They will run from a stranger, because they do not recognize his voice.

True! The believers will not follow a stranger (false doctrines), and they will run from them because they do not recognize false teachings.

But when it comes to believing what God has said, or believing what some writer thinks God may have said...well, I should think the answer is obvious.

This is the reason God wrote Ephesians 4:11-16 just for people like you.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I must admit you know how to quote many scriptures but alas, you have no understanding what they really say.
To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

Yes, by comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual, however, there are people whom God will send a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. These are they that say God's salvation is insufficient, that after a person has been given eternal life he can still fall away. This is an impossibility!!! “Eternal” means forever. How can anyone lose something that is eternal in character?


The phrase, “My sheep hear my voice” in John 10:27, is metaphorical language that really mean the “Word of God” and only the true believers can hear and follow the Word (Bible), and the rest are delusional.


True! The believers will not follow a stranger (false doctrines), and they will run from them because they do not recognize false teachings.


This is the reason God wrote Ephesians 4:11-16 just for people like you.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I must admit you know how to quote many scriptures but alas, you have no understanding what they really say.
To God Be The Glory

The problem remains that the scriptures I quote are there.


Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

I didn't write that passage. Luke did. Take it up with Luke.


1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

This is a warning from Paul to Timothy.


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer of Hebrews seemed to think that it is possible for Christians to fall away.


1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

Why do you suppose God warned us by the mouth of His Apostle Peter that we have this adversary?


2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Definitely looks as if Peter, at least, believed that Christians could fall away.
Do you suppose that he was suffering from this strong delusion?

The scriptures that I quoted are there, and they say exactly what I posted. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.
I did not write them, I merely quote the great men who did. If they were suffering from a strong delusion, then I am in good company.

 

[ladodgers6]

Obviously, you did not read the entire post. What I actually said is that the Bible is intended for simple people, like fishermen, or carpenters, or housewives. I certainly never said that we do not need to study the Bible. Of course, we need to study it....the entire Bible, not just a hand full of "feel good" passages. If you had actually read my entire post, you would have seen that every passage quoted is from the Gospels. They are words that were spoken by the Lord, Himself. You remember Him...men call Him Jesus.

Nobody is saying that God's promises are ever broken. However, once again, we need to take all scripture into account. Every single verse...not just a handful of "feel good" verses...but every single verse. If take what you like and reject what you don't like, then it isn't the Bible you are believing...it is yourself...as St. Augustine once said. Now, while it is true that God will never break His promise, it is also true that the human heart is desperately wicked. We can walk away from God. The Bible is full of examples of people who did just that.


What did Jesus actually say about His sheep?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

You are concentrating on the second of these two verses, where Jesus promises His sheep eternal life, and states that no man can pluck them from His hand. It's a beautiful verse, with a glorious promise.
But you have not considered verse 27. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice. They are listening to Him. And they follow Him. They hear what He says to them, and they obey Him.

Elsewhere, He says that they will not listen to the voice of strangers:

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

And did you notice? Again, He says that His sheep follow Him. They hear Him, and they obey Him.

They will not follow a stranger. They will run from a stranger, because they do not recognize his voice.


Genesis 15 talks about the "Promised Land". God made a few promises to Abraham.

It seems to me that the important promise is this:

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

This is the promise of the Messiah who would come...the most glorious promise of all. All the nations of the earth would be blessed through Abraham's seed.
And notice...why did God make this precious promise to Abraham?

"because thou hast obeyed my voice."

God demands obedience...and God rewards obedience. God's promises are for those who obey Him.

There is certainly nothing wrong with reading books! No writer would ever tell you not to read books, fevvinsakes!
But when it comes to believing what God has said, or believing what some writer thinks God may have said...well, I should think the answer is obvious.
If you want to truly know what God has said, why would you depend on some writer's opinions, when you have the Word of God, Himself? Do you really think God needs some writer to tell Him what He meant when He said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I don't need some writer to explain that to me.
I love Him...therefore I will strive to keep His commandments.

I care not what others may do. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

You contradict yourself. You said you did not like to read Paul but instead Christ's own words. Implying that the rest of the Bible is obsolete in that its the Gospel you want to read. Then you tell me not to take part of the Bible but the whole thing. But I do agree that we have to understand the theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Which is a Eschatological Adam who is being reveal through history to the consummated eschatological glory. God will send a conquering King & Savior not a King who will fail because people do not follow him. The promised Messiah will conqueror death, sin and Satan. And not be defeated by our decision to accept or reject. We do not make Cross effective by our activity. The Cross is ALREADY EFFECTIVE because of Christ. There is nothing we do to contribute anything to salvation. That's why we need a Redeemer, Savior, Messiah! Christ came to REDEEM SINNERS not to MAKE salvation POSSIBLE. Christ came to accomplish his Father's mission in saving those whom the Father gave him to save, which are SINNERS! So if are you are a SINNER then Christ came to save YOU! Depend not on yourselves but on Christ and nothing else. Here read this its FROM PAUL:

Galatians 3New International Version (NIV)

Faith or Works of the Law

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Children of God
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Barrd]

You contradict yourself. You said you did not like to read Paul but instead Christ's own words. Implying that the rest of the Bible is obsolete in that its the Gospel you want to read.

I never said that I do not like to read Paul. I did say the Gospel is just as important as anything Paul wrote, and I said that if something that Paul wrote seems to contradict what Jesus taught, then obviously we are misunderstanding Paul
Nor should we be surprised. As Peter warned:


2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Of course, you should read Paul's letters. But do remember, as you do, that Paul was a Jewish lawyer, and remember also, to whom he was addressing each letter.

Then you tell me not to take part of the Bible but the whole thing. But I do agree that we have to understand the theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Did you notice that little word I have bolded in?

Which is a Eschatological Adam who is being reveal through history to the consummated eschatological glory. God will send a conquering King & Savior not a King who will fail because people do not follow him. The promised Messiah will conqueror death, sin and Satan. And not be defeated by our decision to accept or reject. We do not make Cross effective by our activity. The Cross is ALREADY EFFECTIVE because of Christ. There is nothing we do to contribute anything to salvation. That's why we need a Redeemer, Savior, Messiah! Christ came to REDEEM SINNERS not to MAKE salvation POSSIBLE. Christ came to accomplish his Father's mission in saving those whom the Father gave him to save, which are SINNERS! So if are you are a SINNER then Christ came to save YOU! Depend not on yourselves but on Christ and nothing else.

'Eschatological Adam"? Are you kidding with that corny phrase? :wacko:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I know...Paul didn't say it. But the Guy Who actually hung on the cross seemed to think that He was doing it for the love of the entire world. He died to make salvation available to all people, everywhere.

Here read this its FROM PAUL:

Galatians 3New International Version (NIV)

Faith or Works of the Law

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Abraham did a little bit more than just believe God. He also obeyed God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
...
Gen 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
...
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together
...
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

People need to get rid of the notion that all that Abraham did was to believe in God. That term "believe" once had a deeper meaning. I could honestly say that I don't believe in certain people. Oh, I know that they exist, all right. That's not the problem. But I don't trust them. I wouldn't follow them to the corner grocery store.
When it says that Abraham believed God, it doesn't just mean that He believed what God said. It also means that He trusted God. He trusted God so much, that he was willing to put his own son on the altar to sacrifice him.
Now, that is faith!

The Law and the Promise

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
[SIZE=large]Y[/SIZE]es, Paul---Apostle to the Gentiles---imitated Christ, and instructs us to do likewise! So, since we are to imitate Christ---and Christ certainly obeyed the law ---then that clearly means that we too are to obey God’s spiritual law.
.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

(I could go on, but these foolish posts are already too long.
Like I said...every verse.)

Children of God
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[SIZE=11pt]Does it make sense that Jesus would set a particular example all His life, tell those that He had trained to teach all that He had taught them to all nations (Matthew 28:20), then a few years later bring in Paul and have him start teaching very different doctrines?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Obviously not. Therefore, you are in error.[/SIZE]

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And how are the Jews going to be Jealous when you keep and try to enter in by the law.... as they where required.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

It is so obvious that I honestly can't understand why everyone doesn't see it.
Jesus preached and practiced obedience. Paul also speaks of obedience, as I demonstrated above.
Those warnings about the possibility of losing salvation are there, and they mean just what they say.

Ahh, but, as Jesus warned us...telling the truth does not make one popular.

 

[ladodgers6]

It is so obvious that I honestly can't understand why everyone doesn't see it.
Jesus preached and practiced obedience. Paul also speaks of obedience, as I demonstrated above.
Those warnings about the possibility of losing salvation are there, and they mean just what they say.

Ahh, but, as Jesus warned us...telling the truth does not make one popular.

This post of yours precisely why we need to study the Word of God. You pose that it is OUR WORKS that save us. I strongly disagree that its the SINNERS or BELIEVERS works is what saves us. Yes Christ and Paul speak of obedience in the lives of SINNERS & BELIEVERS, but knowing the role of works in the lives of both SINNERS/BELIEVERS is crucial in understanding the Law & Gospel in respect to the principle to the inheritance base on works of the Law or by Faith in Christ Alone!

So what does this mean? I will explain it for those seeking the truth. The Law is perfect & holy. The Law demands perfect obedience & righteousness, and nothing less. This is what God demands of sinners/believers! I strongly agree with Barrd. But where Barrd confuses things is in the aspect that SINNERS cannot fulfill these demands of the Law for perfect obedience, because they are already condemned sinners! So to make it clear we cannot be justified through the works of the Law; (16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.. Galatians 2) What does this mean to be Justified? What is Paul saying here? The reason Paul brings this up. Is because the false apostles in the book of Galatians were attempting to deceive them, by having them work for their salvation through the perfect demands of the Law; which they cannot offer God who is a Holy God. These false apostles were saying that through the Law was the only into heaven; and they are correct in saying this. God is demanding perfect righteousness and nothing less. But by these perfect demands of the Law, no flesh will be justified because we are not perfect because we are sinners, who sin all day long. The Law only convicts, threatens, brings terror, condemnation & death for SINNERS! There is no hope in the Law for SINNERS!

But good news, God who is rich in Mercy, justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5). I will provide the run of the passages so people can get a good handle to what I am saying. In the beginning of Romans 4, this is what is states:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Notice the good news of the Gospel that Paul preaches. To the ones who do not works but TRUSTS IN GOD WHO JUSTIFIES UNGODLY, THEIR FAITH (IN GOD'S PROMISE TO SEND A SAVIOR TO SAVE SINNERS) IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. So its God who provides us what we cannot provide for ourselves; which is what the Law demands; perfect obedience! And this perfect obedience which Christ merited through his works, is given to us through Faith. In other words we are clothed with the Pure White Robe of Righteousness of Christ, and we are now children of God. We now inherit the kingdom because we are in Christ. (18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Galatians 3)

For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse ( Ask yourselves, What curse?), as it written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law." (This means you have to be 100% perfect, without any sin or blemish). Clearly NO ONE who relies on the is justified before God (Why?), because "the righteous will live by faith." The law is NOT BASED ON FAITH; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." Christ REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." HE REDEEMED US in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by FAITH (NOT WORKS) we might receive the promise of the SPIRIT.

This is why sinners need a Savior, Redeemer, a Messiah. Why Christ came to be a sacrifice for SIN! Why Christ had to PAY A DEBT OWED BY US!

I do not deny good works. We just need to understand where to place them, and how they relate to being justified before God. In OUR being justified before God its only the WORKS Christ that meet the demands of the perfect obedience of the Law. And Christ's perfect works are given freely to sinners who believe. They are God's gift to the ungodly, not to the righteous, or those who deceive themselves in thinking they can perfectly fulfill the Law demands. Which is calling God a liar because sinners think they justified themselves through the works of the Law. This is call legalism; those who teach and preach that sinners can justifies themselves through the Law. And as you can read for yourselves this is not the case. (Be aware)

So Law demands of us perfect obedience, and the Gospel gives freely the perfect obedience in Christ which the Law demands.

So where do good works come in? Now being children of light, we now perform good works because we are saved. They flow from our justification in Christ. They are the result of our salvation and not to gain justification through them. But we MUST perform them because the Law for the believer is a guide for the Christian life. How we are to live as believers. But also remembering that its always Christ at the center of our faith, NOT OUR WORKS!

Please research for further study these terms to understand the pit falls for believers.

Antinomianism:1.in Christian doctrine, the belief that Christians are not bound by established moral laws, but should rely on faith and divine grace for salvation

Legalism:the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.

How is a sinner justified before a Holy God?????????????

 

[Barrd]

This post of yours precisely why we need to study the Word of God. You pose that it is OUR WORKS that save us. I strongly disagree that its the SINNERS or BELIEVERS works is what saves us. Yes Christ and Paul speak of obedience in the lives of SINNERS & BELIEVERS, but knowing the role of works in the lives of both SINNERS/BELIEVERS is crucial in understanding the Law & Gospel in respect to the principle to the inheritance base on works of the Law or by Faith in Christ Alone!

I never once even hinted that works save us. Why do you put words into my mouth that I never said?
Salvation was completed on the cross at Calvary. It is a done deal. The gift of eternal life is available to all who will accept it by faith. And to those who will accept it is given the gift of the Holy Spirit.
It is our faith in the finished work of Christ that saves us, nothing else.

However, hear what the Lord tells us through the mouth of His Beloved Disciple:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
...
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So what does this mean? I will explain it for those seeking the truth. The Law is perfect & holy. The Law demands perfect obedience & righteousness, and nothing less. This is what God demands of sinners/believers! I strongly agree with Barrd. But where Barrd confuses things is in the aspect that SINNERS cannot fulfill these demands of the Law for perfect obedience, because they are already condemned sinners! So to make it clear we cannot be justified through the works of the Law; (16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.. Galatians 2) What does this mean to be Justified? What is Paul saying here? The reason Paul brings this up. Is because the false apostles in the book of Galatians were attempting to deceive them, by having them work for their salvation through the perfect demands of the Law; which they cannot offer God who is a Holy God. These false apostles were saying that through the Law was the only into heaven; and they are correct in saying this. God is demanding perfect righteousness and nothing less. But by these perfect demands of the Law, no flesh will be justified because we are not perfect because we are sinners, who sin all day long. The Law only convicts, threatens, brings terror, condemnation & death for SINNERS! There is no hope in the Law for SINNERS!

You are right, as far as you've gone with it.
But this is not to say that, seeing as we know we cannot be perfect, we need not bother at all. That is not what Paul taught, and it certainly is not what Jesus taught.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Notice that Paul says that he "delights in the law of God".

But good news, God who is rich in Mercy, justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5). I will provide the run of the passages so people can get a good handle to what I am saying. In the beginning of Romans 4, this is what is states:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Notice the good news of the Gospel that Paul preaches. To the ones who do not works but TRUSTS IN GOD WHO JUSTIFIES UNGODLY, THEIR FAITH (IN GOD'S PROMISE TO SEND A SAVIOR TO SAVE SINNERS) IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. So its God who provides us what we cannot provide for ourselves; which is what the Law demands; perfect obedience! And this perfect obedience which Christ merited through his works, is given to us through Faith. In other words we are clothed with the Pure White Robe of Righteousness of Christ, and we are now children of God. We now inherit the kingdom because we are in Christ. (18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Galatians 3)

Abraham had faith in God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
I think people might have the notion that Abraham just sort of sat around the tent, having faith, and doing nothing.
That is not true.
Abraham obeyed God. When God told him to leave his father's house and go to a land God would show him, he obeyed. He left everything he had known, and followed God to a strange and hostile land.
When God told Abraham to "hearken unto the voice of his wife," Abraham tossed his son, Ishmael, and his mother, out into the wilderness.
And when God told Abraham to take his son Isaac and offer him as a burnt offering...Abraham took him and bound him hand and foot, and laid him on an altar.

Of course, Paul is emphasizing Abraham's great faith in the passage you are quoting. It was Abraham's faith that moved him to obey God. Even when, for most of us, common sense would tell us not to leave the only home we know, or not to throw our child into the wilderness, and certainly not to truss him up and prepare to kill him, Abraham trusted that God would work it all out.
And we know the end of the story...

For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse ( Ask yourselves, What curse?), as it written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law." (This means you have to be 100% perfect, without any sin or blemish). Clearly NO ONE who relies on the is justified before God (Why?), because "the righteous will live by faith." The law is NOT BASED ON FAITH; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." Christ REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." HE REDEEMED US in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by FAITH (NOT WORKS) we might receive the promise of the SPIRIT.

Now, this, I completely agree with.
You don't obey God in order to earn salvation. Jesus already did that for you.

You obey God because you love Him. If you will not obey Him, that shows that you do not love Him.
If you do not love Him, you will not see Heaven.

This is why sinners need a Savior, Redeemer, a Messiah. Why Christ came to be a sacrifice for SIN! Why Christ had to PAY A DEBT OWED BY US!

And Who is this Savior, Redeemer, Messiah?
None other than the Lord, Himself.
I wonder if you know what that word, 'Lord' means? We hear it so often that it has lost it's meaning for us. We speak of "Christ the Lord" in the same way as we might speak of "Joe the butcher"...

lord




noun
noun: lord; plural noun: lords

1. 
   
   
   1.
   
   
   someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler.
   "lord of the sea"
   
   
   synonyms:
   
   magnate, tycoon, mogul, captain, baron, king; More
   
   
   industrialist, proprietor;
   informalbig shot, (head) honcho;
   derogatoryfat cat
   
   "a press lord"
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   • 
     
     
     (in the UK) a man of noble rank or high office; a peer.
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     (in the UK) a title given formally to a baron, and less formally to a marquess, earl, or viscount (prefixed to a family or territorial name).
     noun: Lord
     "Lord Derby"
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     (in the UK) the House of Lords, or its members collectively.
     plural noun: Lords; plural noun: the Lords
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     (in the UK) a courtesy title given to a younger son of a duke or marquess (prefixed to a Christian name).
     noun: Lord
     "Lord John Russell"
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     (in the UK) in compound titles of other people of authority.
     "Lord High Executioner"
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     historical
     a feudal superior, especially the proprietor of a manor house.
     
     
     
   • 
     
     
     a name for God or Christ.
     noun: Lord
     "give thanks to the Lord"
     
     
     synonyms:
     
     God, the Father, the Almighty, the Creator; More
     
     
     Jehovah, Adonai, Yahweh, Elohim, Allah;
     Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, the Son of God, the Redeemer, the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace, the King of Kings;
     informalthe Man Upstairs
     
     "let us pray to the Lord"
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
   

exclamation
exclamation: Lord

1. 
   
   
   1.
   
   
   used in exclamations expressing surprise or worry, or for emphasis.
   "Lord, I'm cold!"
   
   
   
   
   

verb
verb: lord; 3rd person present: lords; past tense: lorded; past participle: lorded; gerund or present participle: lording

1. 
   
   
   1.
   
   
   archaic
   confer the title of Lord upon.
   
   
   
   
   
2. 
   
   
   2.
   
   
   act in a superior and domineering manner toward (someone).
   
   
   synonyms:
   
   order about/around, dictate to, domineer, ride roughshod over, pull rank on, tyrannize, have under one's thumb;
   
   
   informalboss around, walk all over, push around;
   throw one's weight around
   
   "in our schooldays, you used to lord it over us"
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Lord basically means One Who must be obeyed...

I do not deny good works. We just need to understand where to place them, and how they relate to being justified before God. In OUR being justified before God its only the WORKS Christ that meet the demands of the perfect obedience of the Law. And Christ's perfect works are given freely to sinners who believe. They are God's gift to the ungodly, not to the righteous, or those who deceive themselves in thinking they can perfectly fulfill the Law demands. Which is calling God a liar because sinners think they justified themselves through the works of the Law. This is call legalism; those who teach and preach that sinners can justifies themselves through the Law. And as you can read for yourselves this is not the case. (Be aware)

It is true, we can not, of ourselves, keep the law. But we are not on our own as Christians...we have the Holy Spirit working in us to conform us to Christ.
Of course, we cannot be perfect, but that is not an excuse. No one is justified by works, but by faith. That's a given.
On the other hand, no one is justified by dead faith, either.

So Law demands of us perfect obedience, and the Gospel gives freely the perfect obedience in Christ which the Law demands.

And it is Christ Who said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

I love Him. Therefore, I will strive to keep His commandments.

So where do good works come in? Now being children of light, we now perform good works because we are saved. They flow from our justification in Christ. They are the result of our salvation and not to gain justification through them. But we MUST perform them because the Law for the believer is a guide for the Christian life. How we are to live as believers. But also remembering that its always Christ at the center of our faith, NOT OUR WORKS!

You've almost got it.
We obey because we love our Lord. Our good works flow from the Holy Spirit within us. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to bring to our minds all the things that Jesus taught His disciples. He is at work in us, making us, day by day, more like Christ. You are right, it is Christ Who is at the center of our faith. Christ Who taught us that love is the hallmark of His disciples...and Christ who taught us that, if we love Him, we will obey Him.
Please research for further study these terms to understand the pit falls for believers.

Antinomianism:1.in Christian doctrine, the belief that Christians are not bound by established moral laws, but should rely on faith and divine grace for salvation

A big word that basically means it's okay to sin...

Legalism:the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.

In other words, diy salvation.

Neither of these are true. No, sin is always wrong, and sin separates between the believer and God...

How is a sinner justified before a Holy God?????????????

Now, that is what I call a "loaded question."

Of course, the expected answer is that he is justified through his faith in the Risen Lord.
And that is true.
However, he is not justified through dead faith...

 

[mjrhealth]

Ahh, but, as Jesus warned us...telling the truth does not make one popular.

Yes we even get ignored and barred by some??

 

[Jun2u]

The problem remains that the scriptures I quote are there.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer of Hebrews seemed to think that it is possible for Christians to fall away.

The scriptures you've quoted above are NOT speaking about a child of God or Christians , as you put it, rather the word “some” in Heb 6:4 must be qualified, and these are they who are the Tares that God allowed to grow together with the Wheat in the church environment. The Tares are the unsaved and the Wheat the saved. In every congregations of the world, without exceptions, there are saved and unsaved people who gather together in the local churches. The Tares are those that will fall away although they heard the true Gospel preached (enlightened), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (salvation), and were made partakers of the the Holy Spirit (communion).
The key verse in understanding Heb 6:4-6 is found in Heb 6:9 which do not speak about a child of God or salvation, but of unbelief which is explained in Heb 3:17-19.
God is the Author of the Bible and I don't believe He intended that it is possible for His child to fall away!
2Pe 2:20-22 are companion scriptures to Heb 6: 4-6.

Definitely looks as if Peter, at least, believed that Christians could fall away.
Do you suppose that he was suffering from this strong delusion?

You are not only spiritually blind but physically blind as well!
My previous post above said: only the true believers can hear and follow the Word (Bible), and the rest are delusional.
Please don't twist what I say!!!
Peter was a child of God and therefore, could never have said that a child of God can fall away.
It is your lack of understanding the scriptures that is the problem.

The scriptures that I quoted are there, and they say exactly what I posted. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.
I did not write them, I merely quote the great men who did. If they were suffering from a strong delusion, then I am in good company.

Note that the great men you quoted are all children of God therefore could not be delusional!!!
The scriptures indeed will stay permanently in the Bible!

Boy am I glad you didn't write the Bible!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[OzSpen]

The scriptures you've quoted above are NOT speaking about a child of God or Christians , as you put it, rather the word “some” in Heb 6:4 must be qualified, and these are they who are the Tares that God allowed to grow together with the Wheat in the church environment. The Tares are the unsaved and the Wheat the saved. In every congregations of the world, without exceptions, there are saved and unsaved people who gather together in the local churches. The Tares are those that will fall away although they heard the true Gospel preached (enlightened), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (salvation), and were made partakers of the the Holy Spirit (communion).
The key verse in understanding Heb 6:4-6 is found in Heb 6:9 which do not speak about a child of God or salvation, but of unbelief which is explained in Heb 3:17-19.
God is the Author of the Bible and I don't believe He intended that it is possible for His child to fall away!
2Pe 2:20-22 are companion scriptures to Heb 6: 4-6.

Jun2u,

This is not what the verses say in context, we read Heb 5:11-6:8 (ESV):

11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

The context of Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) is very clear that these people are those:

• Who have become 'dull of hearing' (5:11).
• By this time, for those for whom Jesus 'became the source of eternal salvation' (5:9), 'ought to be teachers' (5:12), i.e. Christian teachers, needed 'someone to teach you again' (5:12).
• Teach what? 'The basic principles of the oracles of God' (5:12).
• These Christians needed to go back to 'milk' and not be fed 'solid food' (5:12).
• 'Everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness' (5:13). So, the author is not talking about unbelievers but about those who are 'unskilled' in righteousness. He is not talking about those who do not know and experience righteousness.
• He is addressing those who are children in righteousness (5:13). Nevertheless, they are Christians of righteousness, but are still needing milk as children of God when they should be more mature.
• However, 'solid food is for the mature'. These are those who have 'powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil' (5:14).
• The author's call is that these Christians 'leave the elementary doctrine of Christ' (6:1) - the milk - and 'go on to maturity' so that the foundation of Christ - repentance - will not be laid again. This problem they were encountering was a 'foundation' of 'dead works and of faith toward God' (6:1).
• This elementary doctrine also included 'instruction about washings', 'laying on of hands', 'resurrection of the dead' and 'eternal judgment' (6:2). Obviously these kinds of doctrines were involved in these Christians' belief in and teachings of the 'milk' of being 'unskilled in the word of righteousness' (5:13).
• Then the author launches into the warnings of apostasy contained in Heb 6:4-6 (ESV), in which the teaching is that for those who apostasize from the faith by falling away, 'they are crucifying once again the Son of God' (6:6), thus making it 'impossible to restore [them] again to repentance' (6:4).
• Then comes the analogy of land that has absorbed the rain that falls, produces a crop for those who cultivate it and the blessing is thus received from God (6:7).
• But if that crop 'bears thorns and thistles' is is worthless' and is 'cursed' and 'burned' (6:8).

So, it is possible for Christians to feed on the milk instead of the food and be immature in their faith and then become vulnerable to the temptations to apostasize and fall away from the faith.

That's the context of Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) as I understand it. It is addressing Hebrew Christians who are warned that they could apostasize BUT 'in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things - things that belong to salvation' (6:9). Who are the 'beloved'? Christians, of course!

The writer of Hebrews had this 'desire' for the believers to whom he addressed this letter: 'We desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises' (Heb 6:11-12 ESV).

So the writer is dealing with immature Christian believers who had been feeding on milk instead of solid food. For these, the temptation to fall away from the faith was always a possibility. But for these Hebrew Christians, the writer desired better things - perseverance in the faith.

I don't believe the context, based on this reasoning, allows us to say that these people were 'NOT speaking about a child of God or Christians' (your language). They were immature Christians who could be tempted away from the faith and fall into apostasy.

Oz

 

[Jun2u]

Jun2u,

This is not what the verses say in context, we read Heb 5:11-6:8 (ESV):

Unfortunately, the passage concerned is Hebrews 6:4-6 which speaks that there will be “some” (in a church setting), who will fall away.

I was merely responding to Barrd's post #10 where she claimed those who will fall away are Christians, just as you do but in a different twist, by saying these who fall away are also Christians but unskilled in the doctrines of Christ. I have yet to read in the Bible that anyone lacking in the knowledge of scriptures cannot be saved!!

We are not saved because of knowledge of Scripture.

FYI, the gist of Hebrews 6:4-6 is about someone who was brought so close to salvation but rejected it!

Consider these scriptures which are self explanatory:

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 3:17-19 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

To God Be The Glory