The Lord not come to Condemn the World

[Truth7t7]

I disagree, you have been shown "Several Times" Jesus' return is compared to a watery flood.

"False"!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power…” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

 

[ewq1938]

"False"!

Of course it is not false. You've been shown the scriptures before.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

 

[ewq1938]

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power…” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
px
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding how Christ returns not how the unsaved are killed. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strong's concordance. So, Christ comes in a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that by Christ:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved to kill them. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.


2Th 1:7-8

And to you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In A FLASH OF LIGHTNING
taking vengeance (with a sword according to Revelation 19) on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[robert derrick]

I disagree, you have been shown "Several Times" Jesus' return is compared to a watery flood.

That is the exact point. All the likenesses of prophecy must be taken together. Not just the one that appears to support another prophecy.

Taken together, the only thing in common with the Lord's return, is it's suddenness upon the unbelieving. Not the fire nor the water nor the amount of destruction.

 

[ewq1938]

That is the exact point. All the likenesses of prophecy must be taken together. Not just the one that appears to support another prophecy.

Yep. He is "cherry picking" and ignoring things that disprove his beliefs.

Taken together, the only thing in common with the Lord's return, is it's suddenness upon the unbelieving. Not the fire nor the water nor the amount of destruction.

Agreed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course it is not false. You've been shown the scriptures before.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

"False"

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

"False"

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

Not according to those scriptures, or Rev 19 that shows the actual second coming and how he kills the army of the beast...a sword not fire. Rev 20 also shows two judgments, not one.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not according to those scriptures, or Rev 19 that shows the actual second coming and how he kills the army of the beast...a sword not fire. Rev 20 also shows two judgments, not one.

Dream time is over,wake up pal!

 

[Zao is life]

In no way does that mean Christ will destroy Sodom again with fire at the second coming. It means Christ will come suddenly and unexpected just like the fire did to Sodom. You are misrepresenting the verses, and the very example of fire destroying Sodom shows a limited, non-global destruction anyways which defeats your entire point of a non-scriptural global slaying of all humans by fire at the second coming.

@Truth7t7

And the earth and the works [ergon] in it will be burned up.

ergon: The works of God: Matthew 11:2; Luke 24:19; John 4:34; John 5:20; John 5:36; John 6:28; John 6:29; John 7:3; John 7:21; John 9:3; John 9:4; John 10:25; John 10:32; John 10:33; John 10:37; John 10:38; John 14:10; John 14:11; John 14:12; John 15:24; John 17:4; Acts 13:41; Acts 15:18; Romans 14:20; Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 1:10; Hebrews 2:7; Hebrews 3:9; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 4:4; Revelation 15:3.

ergon: The works of Satan: Romans 13:12; II Corinthians 11:15; Ephesians 5:11; I John 3:8.

ergon: The works of men:

Matthew 5:16; Matthew 23:3; Matthew 23:5; Matthew 26:10; Mark 13:34; Mark 14:6; Luke 11:48; John 3:19; John 3:20; John 3:21; John 7:7; John 8:39; John 8:41; Acts 5:38; Acts 7:22; Acts 7:41; Acts 9:36; Acts 13:2; Acts 14:26; Acts 15:38; Acts 26:20; Titus 2:14; Romans 2:6; Romans 2:7; Romans 2:15; Romans 3:20; Romans 3:27; Romans 3:28; Romans 4:2; Romans 4:6; Romans 9:11; Romans 9:32; Romans 11:6; Romans 13:3; Romans 15:18; I Corinthians 3:13; I Corinthians 3:14; I Corinthians 3:15; I Corinthians 5:2; I Corinthians 9:1; I Corinthians 15:58; I Corinthians 16:10; II Corinthians 9:8; II Corinthians 10:11; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5; Galatians 3:10; Galatians 5:19; Galatians 6:4; Ephesians 2:9; Ephesians 2:10; Ephesians 4:12; Philippians 1:22; Philippians 2:30; Colossians 1:10; Colossians 1:21; Colossians 3:17; I Thess 1:3; I Thess 5:13; II Thess 1:11; II Thess 2:17; I Timothy 2:10; I Timothy 3:1; I Timothy 5:10; I Timothy 5:25; I Timothy 6:18; II Timothy 1:9; II Timothy 2:21; II Timothy 3:17; II Timothy 4:5; II Timothy 4:14; II Timothy 4:18; Titus 1:16; Titus 2:7; Titus 3:1; Titus 3:5; Titus 3:8; Titus 3:14; Hebrews 4:10; Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 6:10; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 10:24; Hebrews 13:21; James 1:4; James 1:25; James 2:14; James 2:17; James 2:18; James 2:20; James 2:21; James 2:22; James 2:24; James 2:25; James 2:26; James 3:13; I Peter 1:17; I Peter 2:12; II Peter 2:8; I John 3:12; I John 3:18; II John 1:11; III John 1:10; Jude 1:15; Revelation 2:2; Revelation 2:5; Revelation 2:6; Revelation 2:9; Revelation 2:13; Revelation 2:22; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 2:26; Revelation 2:19; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 3:2; Revelation 3:8; Revelation 3:15; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 14:13; Revelation 16:11; Revelation 18:6; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 20:13; Revelation 22:12.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work [ergon] shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

.. And the earth and the works [ergon] in it will be burned up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

"Of course it's the works of the rocks. Of course it's the works of the planet. Of course!!", declare the many who reside in the same echo chamber.

 

[Zao is life]

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

@Truth7t7
and the elements [stoicheion] will melt with fervent heat.

Galatians 4:3:
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheîon] of the world:

Galatians 4:9:
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements [stoicheîon], whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

.. and the elements [stoicheion] will melt with fervent heat.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

"Of course it's the chemical elements of the planet. Of course!!"

 

[Zao is life]

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

@Truth7t7

in which the heavens will pass away [parerchomai] with a rushing noise.

Approaching near:

Luke 12:37:
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come near [parérchomai] and serve them.

Acts 24:7:
But the chief captain Lysias came upon [parérchomai] us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,

Past tense and passing by:

2 Corinthians 5:17:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away [parérchomai]; behold, all things are become new.

Matthew 8:28:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by [parérchomai] that way.

Matthew 14:15:
And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past [parérchomai]; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.

Matthew 26:39:
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass [parérchomai] from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 6:48:
And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by [parérchomai] them.

Luke 11:42:
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over [parérchomai] judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Acts 27:9:
Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past [parérchomai], Paul admonished them,

Luke 15:29:
And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed [parérchomai] I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Luke 18:37:
And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth [parérchomai] by.

Acts 16:8:
And they passing by [parérchomai] Mysia came down to Troas.

James 1:10:
But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away [parérchomai].

1 Peter 4:3:
For the time past [parérchomai] of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Matthew 24:34-35:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass [parérchomai], till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away [parérchomai], but my words shall not pass away [parérchomai].

Imagery and metaphor: Destruction of ancient Babylon:

Isaiah 13:13:
So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah 34:4:
And all the host of the heavens shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled like a scroll; and all their host shall droop, as a leaf falls off from the vine, and as the falling from the fig tree.

Isaiah 34:8-10:
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, the year to repay for the fighting against Zion. And its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust to brimstone, and its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be put out night or day; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none passes through it forever and forever.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

.. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away [parerchomai] with a rushing noise, and the elements [stoicheion] will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works [ergon] in it will be burned up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

"Of course Peter is talking about the destruction of the planet. Of course! Don't you know that every time the same words are or have been used in the Bible, the planet was destroyed and the elements of the earth burned up?!! And the works of the rocks, the works of the mountains, the works of the rivers and the sea, the works of the earth were all burned up.?"

Well according to you and many others anyway, @Truth7t7

"Those evil rocks and their evil works. Those disgusting trees and all their wickedness. Those wicked seas and the abundance of life they sustain. God is going to destroy the earth and all its wicked works [ergon]"

The fantasy of the destruction of the planet and the "works" [ergon] of the rocks and the trees and the mountains and the seas.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

Put the Greek lexicon down. It’s a harmful tool to the untrained.

But what about this part:

“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

“Taking vengeance”​

 

[Zao is life]

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is saying, that the Lord comes to save and not only condemn.

The Lord does not come to the earth with blanket condemnation for all people. He does not come just to kill and destroy.

God does not need to come to the earth, just to condemn the world. He can do that from heaven, and send fire at any time to destroy all flesh and the earth itself.

Nor does He need come to the earth, to resurrect His people. He can do that from the throne also at any time.

The Lord does not ever come into the world to condemn the world, but to save them that believe and do good.

The prophecy of the Lord coming into the world to condemn the world, is of the same false Messiah and Christ, that the unbelieving Jews are still looking for.

Both Christians and Jews alike, that look for their christ coming in his own name to condemn the world, will also worship him for making fire to come down out of heaven in their sight, and destroy all his enemies.

That's the christ they are looking for, not Jesus that will come into the world to save, and not just to condemn everyone on earth.

The Lord Jesus Christ does not come to condemn the world, but to judge righteous judgment over all the earth, that the nations will be glad for:

O let the nations be glad and sing for for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

You can't claim to believe the words of Jesus if you only quote half of what He said and believe only that half that you quoted.

He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

 

[ewq1938]

Put the Greek lexicon down. It’s a harmful tool to the untrained.

The only harmful part IS the untrained. They need to be trained. They need to learn to use Lexicons. Should discussions be done in Latin so the "untrained" can't understand that too?

But what about this part:

“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

“Taking vengeance”​

Rev 19 shows this vengeance in action. No fire is used. The fire (lightning) is the speed and brightness of his return. A symbolic sword is used to kill the army of the beast.

 

[robert derrick]

You can't claim to believe the words of Jesus if you only quote half of what He said and believe only that half that you quoted.

He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Nothing is out of context. The Scripture stands alone: the Lord does not come to earth just to condemn the world, but to save them that believe.

You're the one not acknowledging the simple truth of it.

Once He comes, both the first and second time, them that continue in unbelief and do evil, shall not be saved.

The second time, every eye shall see Him in the air, will become instant believers like Thomas, however unlike Thomas, all will not believe from the heart and confess Him their Lord and God.

Everytime the Lord comes to the earth, it is to judge first, not just to condemn. He judges righteously whether to save the good or condemn the wicked. He never comes just to condemn the world.

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

The prophecy of His coming again is not an all condemning slaughter. Obviously. Them of the nations seeking judgment against the wicked in their lands, will be glad for the Lord's reign on earth.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

learn to use Lexicons

The fire (lightning) is the speed and brightness of his return. A symbolic sword

 

[Zao is life]

Nothing is out of context. The Scripture stands alone: the Lord does not come to earth just to condemn the world, but to save them that believe.

You're the one not acknowledging the simple truth of it.

Once He comes, both the first and second time, them that continue in unbelief and do evil, shall not be saved.

The second time, every eye shall see Him in the air, will become instant believers like Thomas, however unlike Thomas, all will not believe from the heart and confess Him their Lord and God.

Everytime the Lord comes to the earth, it is to judge first, not just to condemn. He judges righteously whether to save the good or condemn the wicked. He never comes just to condemn the world.

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

The prophecy of His coming again is not an all condemning slaughter. Obviously. Them of the nations seeking judgment against the wicked in their lands, will be glad for the Lord's reign on earth.

So Jesus identified the people who (in His own words rather than your words) are condemned even now because they have not believed (past tense) in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

He said that The Light (Jesus) had come (past tense) into the world but many loved (past tense) darkness rather than Light, and so they were condemned already.

He could have been speaking only of those of His own generation, but He did not say that - indeed, The Light has come into the world, so in my understanding of fairness, whoever hears about Him in any nation where He is preached and has been preached since He said it,

and the gospel message of His death for sin and His resurrection from the dead is known,

and yet rejects Him,

is as guilty as those of His own generation to whom He was speaking, that is if indeed He was even speaking only to them, since He was not restricting His words regarding the fact that He is the Savior of the world only to them.

He made the words "condemned even now" present tense, and The Light having come into the world past tense, but you change His words to mean only future tense when He returns.

So while you continue to ascribe to Jesus what He did not say, I will continue not to add to His words the things you say.

 

[robert derrick]

Once again, there's always one or two Scriptures, that settle any dispute of doctrine and prophecy of Christ.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

And as usual, they are well known already.

So much for the cruel manner of spirit of false prophets today, thirsting for world genocide by their desired christ to come.

At the Lord's second coming, where every eye shall see Him and wail because of Him, He will also be pouring out the Spirit of grace once again, even as at His first coming.

The only difference will be those not receiving Him in the flesh, were cut off from the hope of Israel, but them not receiving Him a second time, will be cut off from the earth.

Those receiving Him gladly to rule the earth and judge righteously, will also become newborn sons of God as at Jerusalem the first time.

Joel's prophecy is fulfilled at the first and second coming of the Lord to earth, with the Spirit of grace poured out once, then twice.

 

[robert derrick]

Once the Spirit of grace is taken out of the way on earth with the risen saints, then the earth is left without God, as before His Spirit was poured out upon all flesh the first time at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

He will come once again with resurrected body in power to destroy His warring enemies first, and after the battle in blood-red breastplate of war, He will once again pour out the Spirit of grace upon them alive and remaining, beginning as at the first in Judea round about Jeruslaem.

Jesus never comes to condemn the world, without saving some by grace through faith.

His Spirit of grace will be poured out again on earth, to save and rule, not to condemn and destroy all.

Making fire come down out of heaven in his followers site, is the desired false prophecy of another cruel christ.

The lord comes again not just to destroy His enemies, but also to pour out His Spirit of grace, to save them left alive to receive Him.

That will be the sheep, that cared for any sick and needy and imprisoned without cause, not knowing who they are nor caring.

Just as the Samaritan, that knew not the Lord Jesus in the flesh. There will be still neighborly Samaritans on earth, along with plenty of their women at the well and in their homes.

The Spirit of grace will be poured out upon again on earth, beginning round about Jeruslaem as the first time, but only the neighborly seeking righteous judgment and justice, will receive Him, gladly.

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

Those looking for another christ coming in his own name to condemn all, won't be glad when the true Christ Jesus comes again.

And, if they do survive the plagues and slaughter around Judea, they'll be skulking with the goats for not seeing their own personal enemies slaughtered as well.