The Manifestating

[Episkopos]

Are you really unaware of the meaning in scripture where it talks about why the Jews rejected Jesus because they were looking for a outward Savior. Know you not these things?

Blessings,

Scratching his head in Christ, Not me

I think when you say "outward saviour"...a term you are really making up...you mean a political saviour. The Jews were looking for a nationalistic leader...like Bar Kochba...who became what they believed was the messiah who would break the yoke of the Romans.

When you say an "inward " saviour that could be a Gnostic term meaning that even as you sin with the body outwardly the Lord sees you as sinless. That's why I questioned your terminology. There are a number of people on this forum who hold to that particular error.

As in...I'm an outward sinner but inwardly sinless. (which is a Gnostic position)
So that's what I was trying to decipher in your postings.

I try to use actual terminology...not inventing words and then criticizing people when they then try associating vague statements to actual things.

The bible doesn't speak of any inward or outward saviours. That distinction exists only in your mind as to any real biblical comparison that is meant to be conveyed as truth.

I would say...trust your own senses less and the words from God more. Get to know the meaning of the biblical text so that you become conversant with it's content.

Perhaps if you were to use the bible...actual biblical statements...and use biblical concepts, rather than your own invented terms, at least one layer of vagueness in your posts could be peeled away.

Just an idea.:)

Peace

 

[Episkopos]

Or; by this statement if your asking if a believer can be 100% free from sin while living in these bodies the answer is; no.

Ok...finally a clear answer. :) (see, that wasn't that hard)

But to the bigger question I think you’d liked answered “how does one get freed from sin”?

It is by seeing their deaths in Christ and reckoning that so as scripture commands.

Can you see how your reasoning doesn't work? You are teaching something that doesn't hold any water.
You are saying we cannot be free from sin...and yet offer advice on how to do so...seeing their deaths in Christ...in contradiction and this within a few sentences of each other.

To me, a person who does this kind of thing doesn't understand themselves what they are trying to teach. You aren't understanding what "dead" means. You are reading into this as ...mostly dead....like in the Princess Bride movie.

So you are trying to fit ideas together that are in fact contradictory and this because of a human mis-appropriation taken from the biblical text. You aren't understanding the polarity that exists in the truth.

If there is no victory over sin in these bodies then you can't say that IN Christ is no sin. You would have to admit that even IN Christ...there is at least SOME sin. OR...you would have to admit that we can't abide in Christ since we would be bringing our sins into Him.

It is foolishness to think we can see our deaths in Christ as a doctrine (as opposed to an actual entering into this grace by faith) but to not be free from sins. There is no power or truth in this. It is from a human dogmatic imagination. It shows that such a person has not yet entered into the real Christ where there really IS NO sin.

Theory is one thing...but a disciple doesn't try teaching theories...especially since God is real and is as present as our faith would allow Him to be. Jesus Christ is alive. No need for theory.

We can do ALL things through Christ...but only in the real non-theoretical Christ.

This is just you making up something to accuse a believer of.

I was actually trying to get you to answer a question...any question...so you can apply what you wish to yourself...if your conscience convicts you that this was what you were in fact doing.

But you finally responded to my questions....so now I understand what you are about.

You can't help someone if they aren't clear on why they are showing certain symptoms.

You don't seem very open to dialogue, or discussion let alone correction. Why post then?

I realize that this has been very uncomfortable for you. And that's too bad, really.

Peace

 

[Helen]

Hi;

Love hopes all things.

I have to be obedient to what my personal relationship with Christ is telling, teaching, directing me to.

I have to try and present the full council of God to the degree I know it. Anything less would be sin between God and myself. Doesn't matter if it’s received or not. For the greatest gift of love I can give anybody and everybody is to make myself 100% obedient to the Lord Jesus Christ for that is the standard I will be measured against

But I think the time has come.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Amen bro...keep on keeping on!! ✟

 

[Not me]

think when you say "outward saviour"...a term you are really making up...you mean a political saviour. The Jews were looking for a nationalistic leader...like Bar Kochba...who became what they believed was the messiah who would break the yoke of the Romans.

So you did know what I was talking about. I thought you might.

When you say an "inward " saviour that could be a Gnostic term meaning that even as you sin with the body outwardly the Lord sees you as sinless. That's why I questioned your terminology. There are a number of people on this forum who hold to that particular error.

As you say “could be”, but you knew it wasn’t, just looking to find a way to elevate yourself.

inwardly sinless. (which is a Gnostic position)
So that's what I was trying to decipher in your postings.

Continue to search into my posts they may help with your growth in Christ.

I try to use actual terminology...not inventing words and then criticizing people when they then try associating vague statements to actual things.

Terminology is words,, I’m sorry your understanding is so shallow that simple words and ideas stubble you so.

You don’t like it when someone speaks the truth to you and you get offended. Wow! But your not worry about your tongue. That’s hypocrisy to the ultimate.

The bible doesn't speak of any inward or outward saviours. That distinction exists only in your mind as to any real biblical comparison that is meant to be conveyed as truth.

The Bible speaks of many inward and outward things. Christ “in us” is an inward Savior. Why are you just throwing things hoping something will stick. Aren’t you better than that!

I would say...trust your own senses less and the words from God more. Get to know the meaning of the biblical text so that you become conversant with it's content.

I would suggest you feed your personal relationship with Christ and you won’t have so many problems with your understanding.

Perhaps if you were to use the bible...actual biblical statements...and use biblical concepts, rather than your own invented terms, at least one layer of vagueness in your posts could be peeled away.

Perhaps if you searched after God and not your human understanding of spiritual things you might be a lot more at peace

Just an idea.:)

Just a thought.

But this is getting old and really isn’t edifying so I wish you well I i really think you need to spend some quite time with God.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Episkopos]

Amen bro...keep on keeping on!! ✟

Keep being misguided and obscure? We need to encourage people to be more transparent and clear in their postings...even if that means dis-agreement...at least at first. Then we can get to taking apart the logic that led errors to come into being...with patience and prayer. We can do no less. I would want someone to help me out of my errors. That's where the real love is...not the fluff we see with all the "much love" posturings. A real heart person sees through the posturings. No need to try appear as loving...if one actually is. ;)

I don't think grandstanding is helpful. Posturing reeks of fakeness.

I would think though that you would like his idea of somehow we being sinful and not sinful at the same time...as per H. Richard....since you agree with his stance on this.

It's all very perplexing to me. :)

 

[Episkopos]

So you did know what I was talking about. I thought you might.



As you say “could be”, but you knew it wasn’t, just looking to find a way to elevate yourself.



Continue to search into my posts they may help with your growth in Christ.



Terminology is words,, I’m sorry your understanding is so shallow that simple words and ideas stubble you so.

You don’t like it when someone speaks the truth to you and you get offended. Wow! But your not worry about your tongue. That’s hypocrisy to the ultimate.



The Bible speaks of many inward and outward things. Christ “in us” is an inward Savior. Why are you just throwing things hoping something will stick. Aren’t you better than that!




I would suggest you feed your personal relationship with Christ and you won’t have so many problems with your understanding.



Just a thought.

But this is getting old and really isn’t edifying so I wish you well I i really think you need to spend some quite time with God.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

There you are! :) Thanks for the honesty at last. I prefer your insults to your fake love. That attitude you are displaying now (with your contrived false accusations) was always there...hiding in plain sight...at least to me.

Before this you hid your real impulses with the fluff I was trying to get you to actually explain. Of course there is no real explanation.

Could arrogance not be far away under all the posturing?

Now read what you wrote to me...back to yourself...and ask yourself where all that came from?

 

[Helen]

Keep being misguided and obscure?

I see no conflict .
While in this flesh we are subject to missing the mark...yet "in Christ" we are are without sin.

As for my "keep on keeping on"...it was an encouragement to him to share what he wishes to share while shutting his ears to the constant heckling of Mark/bbyrd. He has become like a little dog nipping at the heels of the people he doesn't like.

 

[Not me]

Ok...finally a clear answer. :) (see, that wasn't that hard)

I gave you many clear answers and instructions of what you should do to feed your personal relationship with Christ that would help you grow but you don’t have ears to hear.

So you are trying to fit ideas together that are in fact contradictory and this because of a human mis-appropriation taken from the biblical text. You aren't understanding the polarity that exists in the truth.

Your trying to understand spiritual things with your carnal mind that is why they are foolishness to you. Sorry but that is the truth.

If there is no victory over sin in these bodies then you can't say that IN Christ is no sin. You would have to admit that even IN Christ...there is at least SOME sin. OR...you would have to admit that we can't abide in Christ since we would be bringing our sins into Him.

Once again your misunderstand what our salvation in Christ consists of. When Christ dead we died until that truth is revealed in your inner most being you will be lost at trying to understand what you think you know.

It is foolishness to think we can see our deaths in Christ as a doctrine (as opposed to an actual entering into this grace by faith) but to not be free from sins. There is no power or truth in this. It is from a human dogmatic imagination. It shows that such a person has not yet entered into the real Christ where there really IS NO sin.

You should take these thoughts before God you will be most blessed if you do.

Theory is one thing...but a disciple doesn't try teaching theories...especially since God is real and is as present as our faith would allow Him to be. Jesus Christ is alive. No need for theory.

We can do ALL things through Christ...but only in the real non-theoretical Christ.

Correct Jesus is alive and it is our personal relationship with Him that is our all and all please work on yours.

Blessings, all my hopes and prayers in Christ.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Not me]

There you are! :) Thanks for the honesty at last. I prefer your insults to your fake love. That attitude you are displaying now (with your contrived false accusations) was always there...hiding in plain sight...at least to me.

Before this you hid your real impulses with the fluff I was trying to get you to actually explain. Of course there is no real explanation.

Could arrogance not be far away under all the posturing?

Now read what you wrote to me...back to yourself...and ask yourself where all that came from?

Sorry if the truth hurt you. But you do need to look at your behavior.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Helen]

I would think though that you would like his idea of somehow we being sinful and not sinful at the same time...as per H. Richard....since you agree with his stance on this.

It's all very perplexing to me. :)

No idea why...for to me it is clearly in the word.

And, that is why ( even though I was invited) I will not join the Chat Group...I would be too disruptive...I would not sit meekly by, and quietly 'toe the line'....
I know I would challenge quite a bit... So, I leave you in peace ;)

A couple of things I am not eye to eye with H.Richard , but for the main part..yes.

One day we will all see the truth clearly ...until then, we see through the darkened glass. Trouble is, some of us ( and I say us) believe that we see clearly. The Lord will reveal all...in His time...

 

[Not me]

Keep being misguided and obscure? We need to encourage people to be more transparent and clear in their postings...even if that means dis-agreement...at least at first. Then we can get to taking apart the logic that led errors to come into being...with patience and prayer. We can do no less. I would want someone to help me out of my errors. That's where the real love is...not the fluff we see with all the "much love" posturings. A real heart person sees through the posturings. No need to try appear as loving...if one actually is. ;)

I don't think grandstanding is helpful. Posturing reeks of fakeness.

I would think though that you would like his idea of somehow we being sinful and not sinful at the same time...as per H. Richard....since you agree with his stance on this.

It's all very perplexing to me. :)

If you were to go to God for understanding of what the statement meant;

“If it’s me it sin, if it’s Christ, it’s not”

The understanding of this truth would free you from the bondage you find yourself in.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Episkopos]

When trying to save a drowning man you must wait until they stop trying to save their own lives. They will try to bring you down with them. When they stop kicking and struggling THEN you can help them and bring them safely to shore.

So then a person who tries to help someone out of error will get attacked for it initially. Especially if that person was hiding in his sins.

 

[Episkopos]

Sorry if the truth hurt you. But you do need to look at your behavior.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

The truth only hurts the part of people that resists the truth. If the purpose of truth is meant to set us free then we must see bondage as something that no longer brings us comfort.

 

[Episkopos]

I see no conflict .
While in this flesh we are subject to missing the mark...yet "in Christ" we are are without sin.

As for my "keep on keeping on"...it was an encouragement to him to share what he wishes to share while shutting his ears to the constant heckling of Mark/bbyrd. He has become like a little dog nipping at the heels of the people he doesn't like.

Sometimes it's the little dogs with their keen senses that can sniff out what others can't yet discern.

(and no I'm still not calling anyone a dog) ;)

 

[Not me]

When trying to save a drowning man you must wait until they stop trying to save their own lives. They will try to bring you down with them. When they stop kicking and struggling THEN you can help them and bring them safely to shore.

So then a person who tries to help someone out of error will get attacked for it initially. Especially if that person was hiding in his sins.

All you need to do is to learn by experience what it means to;

“reckon yourself dead unto sin and alive unto God”

And you would be set so free from yourself and your human understanding that the scripture would come alive and you would have joy like you never experienced it before. For I can see you are in bondage to yourself. But Christ has made a way so you can be free. Search into this salvation we have in Christ for it is a most blessed one.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Not me]

The truth only hurts the part of people that resists the truth. If the purpose of truth is meant to set us free then we must see bondage as something that no longer brings us comfort.

As you wish, you are welcome to stay in all the bondage your heart would want. Until the day you cry out for freedom and Christ will be waiting for you.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Episkopos]

I see no conflict .
While in this flesh we are subject to missing the mark...yet "in Christ" we are are without sin.

Is a woman who is pregnant outwardly, inwardly responsible for the child she is carrying? Or... is she not responsible for the well-being of the child in her womb?

I would think that we both agree that she is responsible.

Can we agree that we are indeed responsible for our actions in the body? That the Holy Spirit actually makes us more responsible for our actions. And that we will each render an account for what we have done in the body...personally before the Lord?

Or like Bono once said...I don't believe in the gun that just went off in my hand.

Can we do as Pilate and wash our hands of our own responsibilities?

Just some thoughts. :)

 

[Not me]

[/QUOTE]

Is a woman who is pregnant outwardly, inwardly responsible for the child she is carrying? Or... is she not responsible for the well-being of the child in her womb?

I would think that we both agree that she is responsible.

Can we agree that we are indeed responsible for our actions in the body? That the Holy Spirit actually makes us more responsible for our actions. And that we will each render an account for what we have done in the body...personally before the Lord?

Or like Bono once said...I don't believe in the gun that just went off in my hand.

Can we do as Pilate and wash our hands of our own responsibilities?

Just some thoughts. :)

If you wouldn’t mind I’d like to be included in this for, yes, we can agree that we will be held responsible for every word, action, deed.

Can we also agree that it is our personal relationship with Christ that is that thing that is of first importance. That this personal relationship we have with Christ needs to be growing, needs to be that thing that is most important in our lives. That the words of scripture are only there to point away from themselves to give us clear instructions of where and how to get what we need. For just knowing what the words of scripture say without the light of God upon them is just useless human learning that will profit nothing. Can we agree on this? For this is the foundation of all of Christianity for without this one and one personal relationship with Christ we are like a sounding brass that has noise but no life.

For the real and true manifestation of the Divine Nature come to birth in us is salvation, all else is building castles in the mind with human reasonings.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, I could have said things a little softer with more love. But I too always need to reckon myself dead for if not, my humanity like all humanity is sinful

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Episkopos]

Can we also agree that it is our personal relationship with Christ that is that thing that is of first importance.

Please take no offense when I say that I used to believe that this was true. I used to think that God wanted intimacy with me more than anything in the world and I was convinced that the most important thing for me was intimacy with Him. I believed it with all my heart.

While God does look for that connection with us, I learned that there are things He wants even more than that.

Humility and the fear of the Lord.

God really has no favourites. It's all about our attitude. God must and will judge us fairly by our works. So then there is no favouritism that gets in the way of His righteous judging. (now I could explain this better in person)


God doesn't want us to see ourselves as the final destination of His love. We are in fact expected to allow His love flow through us into the world. There is a great danger for us in thinking that God and we as individuals are as exclusive lovers.

We show our love for God by obedience to His commands and His will. There is no intimacy that preempts this basic way of walking. His power then comes to rest on us as we take a low place. His grace is given to us in our weakness.

If we think too much about how close we are to God, then pride is not far away.

Better to remain in a humble attitude.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, I could have said things a little softer with more love. But I too always need to reckon myself dead for if not, my humanity like all humanity is sinful

No offense taken at all brother. :) I prefer the reality.

But to reckon means to take inventory....logizomai....where we get the word "logic" from. We are not to think it as a make believe truth or surmise something that has no basis in the evidence. It's about a logic that proves what we are experiencing. I saw that you were considering reasoning and logic to being something carnal. And that was because your logic was telling you something different than your beliefs were.

I explain it like the role of Patrick Swayze in the movie "Ghost"...where he dies but he doesn't know he's dead. So he's trying to talk to people and knock things over as if he was still a regular living human...but to no avail. Then he has to "reckon"...by the evidence...that he's in fact dead. That's what Paul writes like in the bible. It's always by the evidence.

So then reckoning is to come to the conclusion...based on a life that doesn't sin...that you are in fact dead in Christ.

The way you are putting it...as trying to think you are dead...doesn't work. You can't think yourself to death. You can't walk on water by getting your thoughts right or believing the right thing.

We are never to lose our minds in order to have the mind of Christ. Our logic and reason are to remain intact...and we are to have the divine experience swallow up all things being that they are so much greater than our own power. So this is about power....not thinking or believing things a certain way.

Anyway...I'm glad to finally be talking with you truthfully. No pretense. Just heart to heart. That's how the Body is actually built up.

Peace to you!

 

[Not me]

Please take no offense when I say that I used to believe that this was true. I used to think that God wanted intimacy with me more than anything in the world and I was convinced that the most important thing for me was intimacy with Him. I believed it with all my heart.

While God does look for that connection with us, I learned that there are things He wants even more than that.

Humility and the fear of the Lord.

God really has no favourites. It's all about our attitude. God must and will judge us fairly by our works. So then there is no favouritism that gets in the way of His righteous judging. (now I could explain this better in person)


No offense taken at all brother. :) I prefer the reality.

But to reckon means to take inventory....logizomai....where we get the word "logic" from. We are not to think it as a make believe truth or surmise something that has no basis in the evidence. It's about a logic that proves what we are experiencing. I saw that you were considering reasoning and logic to being something carnal. And that was because your logic was telling you something different than your beliefs were.

I explain it like the role of Patrick Swayze in the movie o"Ghost"...where he dies but he doesn't know he's dead. So he's trying to talk to people and knock things over as if he was still a regular living human...but to no avail. Then he has to "reckon"...by the evidence...that he's in fact dead. That's what Paul writes like in the bible. It's always by the evidence.

So then reckoning is to come to the conclusion...based on a life that doesn't sin...that you are in fact dead in Christ.

The way you are putting it...as trying to think you are dead...doesn't work. You can't think yourself to death. You can't walk on water by getting your thoughts right or believing the right thing.

We are never to lose our minds in order to have the mind of Christ. Our logic and reason are to remain intact...and we are to have the divine experience swallow up all things being that they are so much greater than our own power. So this is about power....not thinking or believing things a certain way.

Anyway...I'm glad to finally be talking with you truthfully. No pretense. Just heart to heart. That's how the Body is actually built up.

Peace to you!

Forgive the boldness;

I’m sorry you it seems have strayed off course and are following a Jesus of your head not the Jesus that lives in your heart. Who promised to make His abode with them. Intimacy with Christ is what He is looking for. You have missed the boat with respect to our salvation in Christ as to what it is in itself. You say reckoning ourself dead to sin and alive unto God does not work by the strength of your mind. And in that you are correct. Many and I say many people have thought and tried to reckon themselves dead to this or that sin and have failed and failed. So they have concluded that this truth of scripture is wrong, false or misleading. But the problem is approaching scripture with human reasonings for scripture can not be understood with the carnal mind. Have you ever read a scripture a thousand times and then read it a thousand one and it is as if God turns a light on and you “see” this scripture like you never saw it before? This is how “all” scripture needs to be understood, spiritually. This is why you failed it your trying to reckon yourself dead, for this truth not being opened up in your inner man and you tried to grab onto this spiritual truth with your carnal mind, and by that it will always fail. Dear brother who lays claim to Christ just because God hasn’t opened up these truth to you doesn’t mean that He hasn’t opened them up to somebody. Now the proof of these truths being opened up in a believers life is that believer will begin to walk in newness of life whereby the deeds of the body will be overcome by the faith of the heart not the faith of the head. Being obedient to the light that has been opened up to their innermost being is our walks with Christ to whatever degree that light is. I testify before you today that these truths are real. They are for all Christians it is what the body of Christ is lacking. The revelation of what it means to be dead in Christ. Whether you believe me or not does not change the truth. If you would forgive the boldness you have missed the mark because God wouldn’t do things your way so you took your ball and went home and have concluded that you possess all the Christ that can be possessed. Which is a fallacy at heart. But God has never changed His mind about you and is calling you back to Himself. With all the love there is in Christ I would take these words before God and ask Him of by chance there is any truth in them. For to the degree Christ is formed in you in the here and now to that degree can and will you be able to manifest Him (love your neighbor) to all eternity for Christ is the manifestation of love.

Please on the off chance I speak the truth ask God about these words. For in them is life.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me