The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Timtofly]

The righteouss are all rescued before all the wicked are destroyed - just like Noah's day and Sodom.

The sheep are not righteous until they stand in judgment. They don't physically die. They are judged by Christ and then changed to live and reign with Christ on earth. Good works do not make one righteous, only the blood of Christ can do that.

 

[Timtofly]

You got the first part right but the second resurrection is a thousand years later according to Rev 20.

He has the day part right. Peter calls those ignorant who don't understand that the Day of the Lord is 1,000 years. The second resurrection is at the end after, Satan is loosed and current creation is handed back to God. But only those who remain in the Lamb's book of life in sheol will be resurrected unless they still reject God after 1,000s of years in sheol.

The verse does not say all will live again. It says no one will live again until after the 1,000 years.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

The point is that those who do live again after the 1,000 years will also be blessed and escape the second death like those in the resurrection at the beginning. A resurrection at the GWT means they will not be cast into the LOF like the one's at the beginning who will not be cast into the LOF.

A resurrection is not to be judged. A resurrection is when one is given eternal life, after standing at the GWT as dead. That is consistent with all physical resurrections out of sheol. The OT were resurrected out of sheol, but a seperate spot from torment called Abraham's bosom. The rest of those in sheol have been waiting since the Cross, and will continue to wait another 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

These verses in Revelation 20 indicate that these beheaded did so to escape the mark, but they waited in sheol during those 42 months. Because they stood in judgment after Armageddon. They were not covered under the Atonement of the Cross to escape tasting death, but were still confirmed written in the Lamb's book of life. They had to taste death like the OT redeemed, until they were judged after Armageddon, and then were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to reign with Christ 1,000 years.

People today claiming to still be alive after the 42 months of AoD are kidding themselves. Even the 2 witnesses were physically killed and were dead for 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. All those beheaded were physically dead way before that.

Those beheaded are the remnant of the nations who inherit the earth. Only those with the mark are still physically alive at Armageddon, and they are all killed and fed to the birds for a few hours before Jesus makes a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65. Come Monday morning the Millennium starts and those beheaded are judged and live on the new earth.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh lives on into the Millennium.

 

[WPM]

They have to stand before the throne in Jerusalem and be judged. The goats are not changed to be taken to heaven, and then cast into the LOF. Where is your Scripture proving this jump in logic? You said they are all destroyed, not that they were all changed and then destroyed. You said all living humans were destroyed at the Second Coming. The sheep never made a profession of faith and accepted the gospel of salvation. They are dead sinners in Adam's flesh, and cannot enter heaven, until they are judged.

• Where does it say that "The sheep never made a profession of faith and accepted the gospel of salvation"?
• Where does it say that "They are dead sinners in Adam's flesh, and cannot enter heaven, until they are judged"?
• Where does it say that "The sheep are not righteous until they stand in judgment"?

Seems to me like you have a vivid imagination when it comes to end-times.

 

[David in NJ]

He has the day part right. Peter calls those ignorant who don't understand that the Day of the Lord is 1,000 years. The second resurrection is at the end after, Satan is loosed and current creation is handed back to God. But only those who remain in the Lamb's book of life in sheol will be resurrected unless they still reject God after 1,000s of years in sheol.

The verse does not say all will live again. It says no one will live again until after the 1,000 years.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

The point is that those who do live again after the 1,000 years will also be blessed and escape the second death like those in the resurrection at the beginning. A resurrection at the GWT means they will not be cast into the LOF like the one's at the beginning who will not be cast into the LOF.

A resurrection is not to be judged. A resurrection is when one is given eternal life, after standing at the GWT as dead. That is consistent with all physical resurrections out of sheol. The OT were resurrected out of sheol, but a seperate spot from torment called Abraham's bosom. The rest of those in sheol have been waiting since the Cross, and will continue to wait another 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

These verses in Revelation 20 indicate that these beheaded did so to escape the mark, but they waited in sheol during those 42 months. Because they stood in judgment after Armageddon. They were not covered under the Atonement of the Cross to escape tasting death, but were still confirmed written in the Lamb's book of life. They had to taste death like the OT redeemed, until they were judged after Armageddon, and then were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to reign with Christ 1,000 years.

People today claiming to still be alive after the 42 months of AoD are kidding themselves. Even the 2 witnesses were physically killed and were dead for 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. All those beheaded were physically dead way before that.

Those beheaded are the remnant of the nations who inherit the earth. Only those with the mark are still physically alive at Armageddon, and they are all killed and fed to the birds for a few hours before Jesus makes a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65. Come Monday morning the Millennium starts and those beheaded are judged and live on the new earth.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh lives on into the Millennium.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

What is it exactly you are not seeing here.............. i can see it clear as a the sun on a clear day

 

[Timtofly]

• Where does it say that "The sheep never made a profession of faith and accepted the gospel of salvation"?
• Where does it say that "They are dead sinners in Adam's flesh, and cannot enter heaven, until they are judged"?
• Where does it say that "The sheep are not righteous until they stand in judgment"?

Seems to me like you have a vivid imagination when it comes to end-times.

It claims they are judged on works alone, and not by faith. Do we currently live in the OT economy? If not then works cannot be a metric.

Are you saying unrepentant souls can just waltz into Paradise?

It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. They are judged in order to be given righteousness. The church was judged at the Cross, thus do not face judgments while still alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Seems to me you don't understand soteriology.

 

[ewq1938]

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

What is it exactly you are not seeing here.............. i can see it clear as a the sun on a clear day

Clear proof that there are two days of resurrection separated by a thousand years. How in the world did a major theological position ever start or continue to exist with that scripture in everyone's bible?

 

[David in NJ]

Clear proof that there are two days of resurrection separated by a thousand years. How in the world did a major theological position ever start or continue to exist with that scripture in everyone's bible?

Something to ponder............

The veil of Moses covers the eyes of the Jews whereby they cannot recognize the Messiah from Scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

They have to stand before the throne in Jerusalem and be judged. The goats are not changed to be taken to heaven, and then cast into the LOF. Where is your Scripture proving this jump in logic? You said they are all destroyed, not that they were all changed and then destroyed. You said all living humans were destroyed at the Second Coming. The sheep never made a profession of faith and accepted the gospel of salvation. They are dead sinners in Adam's flesh, and cannot enter heaven, until they are judged.

Matthew 26:31-46 Sheep/Goat judgement is nothing more than a "Parable" being spoken to "Herdsmen" of the Great White Throne judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15

Below in Matthew 25:46 you see the end result of this judgement, "Eternal Life" and "Everlasting Punishment" (The End)

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[David in NJ]

Clear proof that there are two days of resurrection separated by a thousand years. How in the world did a major theological position ever start or continue to exist with that scripture in everyone's bible?

Something to ponder....

“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”

 

[Timtofly]

"But the rest of the dead lived not again."

What is it exactly you are not seeing here.............. i can see it clear as a the sun on a clear day

You see that they lived not. Great they will not live, that is the default point.

 

[Timtofly]

Clear proof that there are two days of resurrection separated by a thousand years. How in the world did a major theological position ever start or continue to exist with that scripture in everyone's bible?

Because they claim no one is resurrected in those verses.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 26:31-46 Sheep/Goat judgement is nothing more than a "Parable" being spoken to "Herdsmen" of the Great White Throne judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15

Below in Matthew 25:46 you see the end result of this judgement, "Eternal Life" and "Everlasting Punishment" (The End)

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Scripture does not call it a parable. But then again you don't follow Scripture, but make stuff up about the Millennium being the here and now.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron, in destruction of the wicked!

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

This is good. It's the first time I've seen this possibility. It's the kind of insight that can only come from a serious response to a challenge. It's how we should all respond to objections, rather than just blindly ignoring them and repeating our own mantras.

You are forced to conclude that there are them remaining alive on earth after His plagues and coming down to slaughter the armies. But then you only say they are not killed, in order to be killed, not ruled. You are trying to teach ruling is annihilation.

And you do so by saying the manner of rule as a potter over His own vessels, is to destroy them all. Them alive and being ruled over on earth, are now the King's own subjects and His people to rule as He sees fit in justice, judgment, and equity.

1. Ruling is not destroying all those ruled, even by cruel taskmasters.

The Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews for profit and killed many, but not to wipe them out. The Assyrians tortured and terrorized other nations to rule over them, but not to utter destruction. There's no profit in destroying a nation or nations, in order to rule an empire.

When the Lord commanded Israel to utterly destroy the Amalekites, it was not to rule them, but to annihilate them. Saul lost the kingdom, because he kept the king alive and tried to rule them instead.

There is no Scripture where God speaks of ruling people by utterly destroying them. And Jesus defines ruling over others, as exercising authority and power of them.

But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

There is no ruling and exercising authority over anyone being utterly destroyed. Once again, the obvious must be explained, when confronted with a teaching that makes no sense. But it is a good exercise to do so from Scripture itself, and not just say so.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron, in destruction of the wicked!

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

2. The Lord's ruling is shepherding first.

This has always been true for the Lord's people, even if needing to have made captives or killed. That will also be the case in His Millennium for all His subjects of all nations.

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The rod of iron of the Lord is impartial execution of His law, not just to beat down and destroy.

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed.

For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron, in destruction of the wicked!

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

3. Them ruled by the Lord will be His own nations and people.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The first Scripture prophecying the Lord ruling over all nations on earth with a rod of iron, is that of His inheritance and possession:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Those nations will be His inheritance, possession, and kingdoms:

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth and equity.

The only way suggest Psalms 2 is fulfilled by destroying all people on earth, after inheriting them for a possession, and become His kingdoms on earth, is becomes someone wants Him to.

The Lord only comes to earth for salvation, not just destruction.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

When the thousand years of His rule expres, He does have all Gog and Magog devoured by fire out of hand. But that is not at His coming, nor to rule them. No Scripture says Gog and Magog will be 'ruled' as by all devouring fire of God from heaven.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron, in destruction of the wicked!

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

4. The potter is the Lord, and the clay are His people.

But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

No Scripture ever spoke of the Lord as the potter over the clay of Gentile nations, that knew not the Lord nor His name.

The Lord has been and will always be the Shepherding potter over His own clay only. He does not ever destroy all His own people, but there is always a remnant. That will be them made His people to rule when establishing His Millennium on earth.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

And at times today, as well as in His Millennium, He must rule us with rod of iron, rather than shepherding by voice.

And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also.

And if necessary, He also destroys the marred pot:

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

As I said, you have at least offered an interpretation that must be taken seriously; however, the response I give is sufficient for me to reject it as a senseless slaughter, that is contrary to prophecy and doctrine of God in Scripture:

It will be His inherited nations and people, and He will shepherd them by voice and rule them with rod of iron. The Lord is only potter of His own clay and people.

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

I know you will keep your own interpretation, and you're certainly welcome to it, but I don't have to accept it. I like mine much better. It encompasses many teachings of Scripture, that adds more light to the shepherding rule of Christ in His earthly Millennium, rather than just smashing and destroying everything in sight. That prophecy will never come to pass, not even when He devours Gog and Magog that surrounds the camp of the saints. Neither that camp nor the rest of the earth is said to be devoured at that time.

Once again many thanks for the honest challenge. It's much better than just repeating ourselves and talking over one another. I'll add this new one to the list, so that I am already aware of it in the future, if anyone else tries to use it. And sense it is now in mind, I believe there will be more Scriptures coming to light, that will also show it is a false rendering of Rev 19:15.

 

[David in NJ]

4. The potter is the Lord, and the clay are His people.

But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

No Scripture ever spoke of the Lord as the potter over the clay of Gentile nations, that knew not the Lord nor His name.

The Lord has been and will always be the Shepherding potter over His own clay only. He does not ever destroy all His own people, but there is always a remnant. That will be them made His people to rule when establishing His Millennium on earth.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

And at times today, as well as in His Millennium, He must rule us with rod of iron, rather than shepherding by voice.

And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also.

And if necessary, He also destroys the marred pot:

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

As I said, you have at least offered an interpretation that must be taken seriously; however, the response I give is sufficient for me to reject it as a senseless slaughter, that is contrary to prophecy and doctrine of God in Scripture:

It will be His inherited nations and people, and He will shepherd them by voice and rule them with rod of iron. The Lord is only potter of His own clay and people.

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

I know you will keep your own interpretation, and you're certainly welcome to it, but I don't have to accept it. I like mine much better. It encompasses many teachings of Scripture, that adds more light to the shepherding rule of Christ in His earthly Millennium, rather than just smashing and destroying everything in sight. That prophecy will never come to pass, not even when He devours Gog and Magog that surrounds the camp of the saints. Neither that camp nor the rest of the earth is said to be devoured at that time.

Once again many thanks for the honest challenge. It's much better than just repeating ourselves and talking over one another. I'll add this new one to the list, so that I am already aware of it in the future, if anyone else tries to use it. And sense it is now in mind, I believe there will be more Scriptures coming to light, that will also show it is a false rendering of Rev 19:15.

You said: "No Scripture ever spoke of the Lord as the potter over the clay of Gentile nations, that knew not the Lord nor His name."

Scripture says: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[ewq1938]

This is good. It's the first time I've seen this possibility. It's the kind of insight that can only come from a serious response to a challenge. It's how we should all respond to objections, rather than just blindly ignoring them and repeating our own mantras.

You are forced to conclude that there are them remaining alive on earth after His plagues and coming down to slaughter the armies. But then you only say they are not killed, in order to be killed, not ruled. You are trying to teach ruling is annihilation.

And you do so by saying the manner of rule as a potter over His own vessels, is to destroy them all. Them alive and being ruled over on earth, are now the King's own subjects and His people to rule as He sees fit in justice, judgment, and equity.

1. Ruling is not destroying all those ruled, even by cruel taskmasters.

Ruling with a rod of iron is also about caring for the people:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ruling with a rod of iron is also about caring for the people:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

Jesus will destroy at his coming, like a Potter destroys his vessels with a rod of iron

You think the readers are ignorant of the fact Jesus returns in fierceness and wrath, and you try desperately to remove this fact, sad!

Big Smiles!

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus will destroy at his coming, like a Potter destroys his vessels with a rod of iron

You think the readers are ignorant of the fact Jesus returns in fierceness and wrath, and you try desperately to remove this fact, sad!

Big Smiles!

It is we that have the scriptures and definitions and verb tenses supporting what we believe in. You have only your beliefs. Look at my post VS. yours to see this fact.