The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Spiritual Israelite]

53. What does Revelation 20:4-6 mean?

Related to number 4.

Some Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:6 this way:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such [who are Born Again] the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [unknown length of time].

That is not what the actual verses present.




How can unsaved people be killed for the testimony of Christ and after physical death, they experience a spiritual resurrection. That's opposite of what the chapter says and opposite of the order of events.

No one believes that. You waste so much time arguing against things that no one actually believes. You can't get that time back.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good post, ewq.
My only comment is your interpretation of verse 6;
1/ Those resurrected ARE born again Christians and they are also those killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast.
2/ Saying 'some of the dead', then: 'the dead in Christ', shows your bias toward more people being resurrected when Jesus Returns, but Rev 20:4 is unequivocal that ONLY the GT martyrs will be.

Good post? He made an argument against something that no one even believes. No one believes that unsaved people can be killed for their testimony of Christ (unsaved people don't have any testimony of Christ!) and then are spiritually resurrected afterwards. That is complete nonsense that no one would ever even consider believing. Straw man arguments like that just show that you guys don't even understand what Amills believe. It's foolish to argue against things that you don't even understand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ruling with a rod of iron is also about caring for the people:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

When used in relation to a rod of iron, there is plenty of violence associated with that word, as passages like Psalm 2:7-9 and Revelation 19:11-21 make very clear. You completely ignore the context in which Him ruling with a rod of iron is used. It's related to Him destroying people and is compared to a vase being shattered into pieces. It also is mentioned in relation to Him smiting/destroying people and Him treading the winepress of God's wrath. If you don't think that is violent then you're just not even trying to see the context in which Him ruling with a rod of iron is used.

 

[robert derrick]

You said: "No Scripture ever spoke of the Lord as the potter over the clay of Gentile nations, that knew not the Lord nor His name."

Scripture says: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

The Lord is speaking and prophesying to His people Israel, as their potter and shepherd, which is then transferred by Paul to all His people of the NT.

The Lord is not a Potter at creation, that creates some men for dishonor and some for honor from the womb. That is the lie of predeterminism, that some men are fated by God to believe, and some are fated by God to not believe. Otherwise, God would not have all men to be saved, but only those He creates unto salvation.

 

[robert derrick]

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

Very good. Unless poimaino must be replaced with punishing rod of iron for the unrepentant?

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The rod and staff comforting obedient David is not made of iron?

 

[ewq1938]

Very good. Unless poimaino must be replaced with punishing rod of iron for the unrepentant?

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The rod and staff comforting obedient David is not made of iron?

The rod of iron can be used to kill like protecting the flock, or used as a caring shepherding tool on the flock itself.

When the pottery is smashed, that's the people's governments and armies which makes way for the people themselves to be ruled over in a peaceful and caring way.

 

[robert derrick]

The rod of iron can be used to kill like protecting the flock, or used as a caring shepherding tool on the flock itself.

When the pottery is smashed, that's the people's governments and armies which makes way for the people themselves to be ruled over in a peaceful and caring way.

It will certainly begin that way with all subjects being sheep for His pasture, but not all people will remain that way, and will need more of the iron of the rod.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rod of iron can be used to kill like protecting the flock, or used as a caring shepherding tool on the flock itself.

When the pottery is smashed, that's the people's governments and armies which makes way for the people themselves to be ruled over in a peaceful and caring way.

Except that is not what is portrayed here at all. But, I guess that doesn't matter to you.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This is a picture of the complete destruction of all of Christ's enemies, not of just destroying governments and armies. It extends beyond just "kings", "captains" and "mighty men" to "all men, both free and bond, both small and great". You completely ignore that part.

 

[David in NJ]

The Lord is speaking and prophesying to His people Israel, as their potter and shepherd, which is then transferred by Paul to all His people of the NT.

The Lord is not a Potter at creation, that creates some men for dishonor and some for honor from the womb. That is the lie of predeterminism, that some men are fated by God to believe, and some are fated by God to not believe. Otherwise, God would not have all men to be saved, but only those He creates unto salvation.

Except that is not what is portrayed here at all. But, I guess that doesn't matter to you.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This is a picture of the complete destruction of all of Christ's enemies, not of just destroying governments and armies. It extends beyond just "kings", "captains" and "mighty men" to "all men, both free and bond, both small and great". You completely ignore that part.

EXCELLENT Scripture - Thank You

Notice that the LORD describes varying degrees of the use of His Rod:
a.) smite = punish partly and in whole = partial destruction up to total annihilation
b.) rule = Correct = this is His Mercy upon the nations that rebelled
c.) wrath = destruction upon those peoples/nations that HE gathered against Israel - Zechariah chapter 14

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

EXCELLENT Scripture - Thank You

Notice that the LORD describes varying degrees of the use of His Rod:
a.) smite = punish partly and in whole = partial destruction up to total annihilation
b.) rule = Correct = this is His Mercy upon the nations that rebelled
c.) wrath = destruction upon those peoples/nations that HE gathered against Israel - Zechariah chapter 14

Where does that passage say anything about Him having mercy upon the nations that rebelled? I think you missed the point I was making.

Notice in verse 18 how the wrath described there extends out beyond just the armies to all people (all unbelievers - of course believers are not included there). So, where does that passage say anything about anyone surviving the wrath that will come when Christ returns? Nowhere that I can see. Just like other passages in scripture like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. No unbeliever will survive His return.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, where does that passage say anything about anyone surviving the wrath that will come when Christ returns? Nowhere that I can see. Just like other passages in scripture like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. No unbeliever will survive His return.

"Nowhere"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

EXCELLENT Scripture - Thank You

Notice that the LORD describes varying degrees of the use of His Rod:
a.) smite = punish partly and in whole = partial destruction up to total annihilation
b.) rule = Correct = this is His Mercy upon the nations that rebelled
c.) wrath = destruction upon those peoples/nations that HE gathered against Israel - Zechariah chapter 14

No he doesn't, there is going to be one rule of the wicked when Jesus Returns, "Crispy Critters"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[David in NJ]

Where does that passage say anything about Him having mercy upon the nations that rebelled? I think you missed the point I was making.

Notice in verse 18 how the wrath described there extends out beyond just the armies to all people (all unbelievers - of course believers are not included there). So, where does that passage say anything about anyone surviving the wrath that will come when Christ returns? Nowhere that I can see. Just like other passages in scripture like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. No unbeliever will survive His return.

Again, thank you for your valuable input with scripture.

a.) If no unbeliever survives then no one is left for the KING of kings to rule over.

b.) God said HE will not destroy everyone at His Second Coming = Zechariah chapter 14

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, thank you for your valuable input with scripture.

a.) If no unbeliever survives then no one is left for the KING of kings to rule over.

He has ruled over His kingdom for the past almost 2,000 years already and He will deliver the kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-24) and rule over all believers from all-time with the Father for eternity at that point. Is that not enough?

b.) God said HE will not destroy everyone at His Second Coming = Zechariah chapter 14

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

How does your understanding of Zechariah 14 line up with passages like these from the more enlightened New Testament?

Matthew 24:
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

In this passage Jesus talks about His second coming in relation to heaven and earth passing away and He made the point that just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". So, He was saying that just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood, that is what will happen when He returns as well. And you know Jesus would never contradict other scripture, so you should consider that you may be misinterpreting Zechariah 14 since your interpretation does not line up with what Jesus Himself taught about what will happen when He returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

In this passage Paul indicates that Jesus will be punishing "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" when He comes again. So, where did he make any exceptions that would allow any unbelievers to not experience His wrath at that time? He didn't. So, why interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught? That is not a good idea.

And then there are these passages which speak of the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns:

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What Paul and Peter taught will happen on the day Christ returns is that the Lord's wrath will come down suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night and it will be by way of fire and the destruction will be so complete that Paul said "they will not escape". Fire will come down upon the entire earth and there will be nowhere for unbelievers to escape (believers will have been caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" at that point).

So, why does your interpretation of Zechariah 14 not line up with what Paul and Peter taught? I'm certain that they had a much better understanding of Zechariah 14 than either you or I do and they clearly did not have the same understanding of Zechariah 14 as you do. That is something you need to take into consideration. Currently, you are interpreting one passage in such a way that contradicts other passages of scripture. That is not acceptable. The New Testament sheds light on the more obscure Old Testament. Please allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you. It's much easier that way.

 

[David in NJ]

He has ruled over His kingdom for the past almost 2,000 years already and He will deliver the kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-24) and rule over all believers from all-time with the Father for eternity at that point. Is that not enough?


How does your understanding of Zechariah 14 line up with passages like these from the more enlightened New Testament?

Matthew 24:
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

In this passage Jesus talks about His second coming in relation to heaven and earth passing away and He made the point that just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". So, He was saying that just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood, that is what will happen when He returns as well. And you know Jesus would never contradict other scripture, so you should consider that you may be misinterpreting Zechariah 14 since your interpretation does not line up with what Jesus Himself taught about what will happen when He returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

In this passage Paul indicates that Jesus will be punishing "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" when He comes again. So, where did he make any exceptions that would allow any unbelievers to not experience His wrath at that time? He didn't. So, why interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught? That is not a good idea.

And then there are these passages which speak of the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns:

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What Paul and Peter taught will happen on the day Christ returns is that the Lord's wrath will come down suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night and it will be by way of fire and the destruction will be so complete that Paul said "they will not escape". Fire will come down upon the entire earth and there will be nowhere for unbelievers to escape (believers will have been caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" at that point).

So, why does your interpretation of Zechariah 14 not line up with what Paul and Peter taught? I'm certain that they had a much better understanding of Zechariah 14 than either you or I do and they clearly did not have the same understanding of Zechariah 14 as you do. That is something you need to take into consideration. Currently, you are interpreting one passage in such a way that contradicts other passages of scripture. That is not acceptable. The New Testament sheds light on the more obscure Old Testament. Please allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you. It's much easier that way.

Again, thank you for your input and these Beautiful passages of scripture = which i fully embrace, believe and SEE

FACT - the HOLY SPIRIT knows more then you & me and even the OT Prophets and the Apostles = 2 Peter 1:19-21

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
for prophecy never came by the will of man,
but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, thank you for your input and these Beautiful passages of scripture = which i fully embrace, believe and SEE

FACT - the HOLY SPIRIT knows more then you & me and even the OT Prophets and the Apostles = 2 Peter 1:19-21

Yes, that is for certain. And that is why we need to get our understanding from Him and not from anyone else, including ourselves.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
for prophecy never came by the will of man,
but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

That is correct. But, do you have any thoughts on what I said in post 1,454? Do you understand what I was saying about the passages I referenced? What do you think about what I said? Do you interpret those passages differently than I do?

It's a colossal struggle for me to get any Premils on this forum to actually address the points that I make. Maybe you can be different from them and specifically address the points I made and give me your thoughts on them?

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, that is for certain. And that is why we need to get our understanding from Him and not from anyone else, including ourselves.


That is correct. But, do you have any thoughts on what I said in post 1,454? Do you understand what I was saying about the passages I referenced? What do you think about what I said? Do you interpret those passages differently than I do?

It's a colossal struggle for me to get any Premils on this forum to actually address the points that I make. Maybe you can be different from them and specifically address the points I made and give me your thoughts on them?

What i am about to share with you is Top Secret, has been hidden in plain sight and is Governed by the Author of Holy Scripture

The Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ used Dual-Prophecy spoken word.

Luke 8:9-10
Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What i am about to share with you is Top Secret, has been hidden in plain sight and is Governed by the Author of Holy Scripture

I'm rolling my eyes so hard right now that they might pop out of my head.

The Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ used Dual-Prophecy spoken word.

Luke 8:9-10
Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.

You could have just said that you have no thoughts to offer on what I said. That would've saved you a little bit of typing.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm rolling my eyes so hard right now that they might pop out of my head.


You could have just said that you have no thoughts to offer on what I said. That would've saved you a little bit of typing.

Like Scripture says = right now you are unable to SEE the Subject in the Hand of God

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Like Scripture says = right now you are unable to SEE the Subject in the Hand of God

I can't take comments like this seriously. If you are supposedly in tune with God and I supposedly am not on these things, then you would be able to show me the truth. But, you clearly cannot as evidenced by the fact that you don't even attempt to do so.

This is a forum where we discuss our beliefs and use scripture to back them up. It seems that all you're interested in is trying to tell people how much holier and in touch with God you are than them. No, thanks. You need to repent of your arrogance.