The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Eternally Grateful]

Call it what you like - obeying God’s commandments is necessary for salvation..

Thanks you just proved me right.

I will pray for you..

Good luck trying to earn your salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have completely misunderstood this passage (Matt. 7:21-23) because you are a Scriptural cherry-picker and do NOT read the Scriptures in CONTEXT. You pit verses against each other - and that is a perversion. Scripture must ALL harmonize.

In Eph. 2:10, Paul reminds us that ALL of the works that are part of our faith were prepared for us in advance by God. Therefore - they're not "OUR" works. We're just the instrument. We can either choose to DO them or NOT which make them an essential component of faith.

Protestants erroneously believe that "Belief" and "Faith" are the same thing - they are NOT. We know this because, as I already told you - James reminds us that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God (James 2:19) but they don't have FAITH.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (Obedience)
You cannot he have one without the other and still have faith . . .

Kind of hard to misunderstand it

Matt 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

many people say to me Lord Lord. But do not practice what they preach, Because they really have not repented and come to true saving faith, So what they have is lip service. they claim to call Jesus Lord. But in reality, they still consider themselves lord.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus goes on to prove this point, by making this statement, On judgment day, Many people will come and declare all the WORKS they did in Jesus name. Ie, these people said Lord Lord. But Jesus said, They never entered the kingdom of Heaven, They had all these works. But since God never knew them, They had no faith (their faith was dead)

You see, these are the religious people. Who think they earn their right to salvation by their deeds. Who reject becoming poor in spirit. but think that even though they began in the spirit. they have to they must perfect themselves in the flesh. or they will lose out.

You see, this very passage you says proves you right, Actually shows you how wrong you are.. Unlike James, these people had works. Yet jesus said, HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

They are not people who were saved one day and lost the next. They are not people who did not do enough works, so they failed to live up. They are not people who claimed to have faith but had no works for it says they did many works in Jesus name. But what they never did was have faith in Christ, their faith was in their works, and because of it they were never made new creatures, Never adopted. Never born again, and as non children of God. they continue to practice unrighteousness.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

Thanks you just proved me right.

I will pray for you..

Good luck trying to earn your salvation.

You're an idiot. You're supposed to be a servant of God, so how can you be an obedient servant if you don't obey the commandments God gives you? And are no obedient servants kept because they are obedient? Indeed they are. So then, your obedience is what keeps you kept. As for Christ, you find salvation THROUGH grace, not by grace. Salvation comes through faith in Christ, and that salvation is being a perfectly obedient servant because of Christ's blood covering your mishaps along the way of obeying God.

 

[RonaldMcjeraldMcjerald]

Kind of hard to misunderstand it

Matt 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

many people say to me Lord Lord. But do not practice what they preach, Because they really have not repented and come to true saving faith, So what they have is lip service. they claim to call Jesus Lord. But in reality, they still consider themselves lord.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus goes on to prove this point, by making this statement, On judgment day, Many people will come and declare all the WORKS they did in Jesus name. Ie, these people said Lord Lord. But Jesus said, They never entered the kingdom of Heaven, They had all these works. But since God never knew them, They had no faith (their faith was dead)

You see, these are the religious people. Who think they earn their right to salvation by their deeds. Who reject becoming poor in spirit. but think that even though they began in the spirit. they have to they must perfect themselves in the flesh. or they will lose out.

You see, this very passage you says proves you right, Actually shows you how wrong you are.. Unlike James, these people had works. Yet jesus said, HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

They are not people who were saved one day and lost the next. They are not people who did not do enough works, so they failed to live up. They are not people who claimed to have faith but had no works for it says they did many works in Jesus name. But what they never did was have faith in Christ, their faith was in their works, and because of it they were never made new creatures, Never adopted. Never born again, and as non children of God. they continue to practice unrighteousness.

Wrong again idiot. They will come that day declaring all the FALSE WORKS they did in Jesus name. I'm tired of hearing this garbage. Literally, what do you think the fruit you are supposed to bear is? Apples? Oranges? Or maybe grapes? No, they are your works. And it is by this fruit that you're judged, so then it is also by your works you are judged

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're an idiot.

Is this not against the forum rules? Even if it is not. You think this is really christlike?

You're supposed to be a servant of God, so how can you be an obedient servant if you don't obey the commandments God gives you?

And who said I was preaching against or claiming I do not do this very thing? In fact, If you have read my words, You would see, I preach the opposite. as I have always maintained Gods TRUE children are obedient to him.

So some discernment would help

And are no obedient servants kept because they are obedient? Indeed they are. So then, your obedience is what keeps you kept.

Well we are talking about CHILDREN.. Does a child stop being a child because he is not always obedient? Can blood ties be broken? when does a child stop being a child? Of course never. Because a child will ALWAYS carry his fathers blood. Just like a child of God will ALWAYS carry the blood of Christ, which purchased him

As for Christ, you find salvation THROUGH grace, not by grace. Salvation comes through faith in Christ, and that salvation is being a perfectly obedient servant because of Christ's blood covering your mishaps along the way of obeying God.

Perfect? So are you sinless?

I started out as a babe in Christ, Learning, and being formed as God taught me, by allowing me to make mistakes and learning from them, Testing his faithfulness, and finding out he is always faithful. And when I chose his way, instead of my own way, Things always worked out. But when I try my own way, It never works out.

In fact. Most christians I know went and are going through this, even today (I know I am still growing)

I have yet to meet a perfect child of God who has been a child of God for along time, let alone, a babe in Christ, who was just converted.

Are you saying you have defied the odds?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong again idiot.

1. I am not wrong
2. This is unchristlike..

Wrong again idiot. They will come that day declaring all the FALSE WORKS they did in Jesus name. I'm tired of hearing this garbage. Literally, what do you think the fruit you are supposed to bear is? Apples? Oranges? Or maybe grapes? No, they are your works. And it is by this fruit that you're judged, so then it is also by your works you are judged

What is obvious is you have not understood a thing I have said.

maybe if you stop trying to attack, and start to listen, You will understand

I know what fruit is, And I know what works are

And jesus said they CLAIMED to have these works (cast out demons, and done many wonders)

yet Jesus said HE NEVER KNEW THEM

now why would jesus say he NEVER knew them if they had true saving faith at one time.

He aso said they practiced sin, Now did not john say these people have never known God?

So we have God saying he never knew them, and John saying they never knew him

yeah I think it is clear. these people were NEVER SAVED

 

[BreadOfLife]

Kind of hard to misunderstand it

Matt 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

many people say to me Lord Lord. But do not practice what they preach, Because they really have not repented and come to true saving faith, So what they have is lip service. they claim to call Jesus Lord. But in reality, they still consider themselves lord.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus goes on to prove this point, by making this statement, On judgment day, Many people will come and declare all the WORKS they did in Jesus name. Ie, these people said Lord Lord. But Jesus said, They never entered the kingdom of Heaven, They had all these works. But since God never knew them, They had no faith (their faith was dead)

You see, these are the religious people. Who think they earn their right to salvation by their deeds. Who reject becoming poor in spirit. but think that even though they began in the spirit. they have to they must perfect themselves in the flesh. or they will lose out.

You see, this very passage you says proves you right, Actually shows you how wrong you are.. Unlike James, these people had works. Yet jesus said, HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

They are not people who were saved one day and lost the next. They are not people who did not do enough works, so they failed to live up. They are not people who claimed to have faith but had no works for it says they did many works in Jesus name. But what they never did was have faith in Christ, their faith was in their works, and because of it they were never made new creatures, Never adopted. Never born again, and as non children of God. they continue to practice unrighteousness.

You hit the nail on the head with your comment above in RED - but then you fell off the tracks.

I don't know how many times I have to remind you until you finally understand:
Faith = Belief + Works (obedience). These are the 2 essential components of faith.

The people being spoken of in Matt. 7:21-23 had ONE but NOT the other. THAT is why Christ "never" knew them.
As I have shown you from Scripture (James 2:14-26, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6) - you cannot have one without the other and STILL have true faith.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him--the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Call it what you like - obeying God’s commandments is necessary for salvation.

Thanks you just proved me right.
I will pray for you..
Good luck trying to earn your salvation.

If you can show me ONE Scriptural example where a disobedient servant attains salvation - I will leave the Catholic Church today and join YOUR sect.

 

[GISMYS_7]

ALL are disobedient servants every day of their life. and you??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You hit the nail on the head with your comment above in RED - but then you fell off the tracks.

I don't know how many times I have to remind you until you finally understand:
Faith = Belief + Works (obedience). These are the 2 essential components of faith.

The people being spoken of in Matt. 7:21-23 had ONE but NOT the other. THAT is why Christ "never" knew them.
As I have shown you from Scripture (James 2:14-26, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6) - you cannot have one without the other and STILL have true faith.

You focus on works to much dude

Faith is never alone..

You make works a requirement where it is not

It is a natural byproduct of true faith. You do not tell someone you trust them then NEVER do anything they say

Your problem is, What I wrote that you highlighted in red Is speaking of those who preach faith PLUS works being required for salvation.

Once again, There is no such things as faith devoid of works, Well except in the case of the thief on the cross and a man who repents on his death bed, Who is not given time to produce works.

But works are a BYPRODUCT or RESULT of our faith and new birth. Not added to faith to gain or keep our salvation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you can show me ONE Scriptural example where a disobedient servant attains salvation - I will leave the Catholic Church today and join YOUR sect.

lol. I have showed you a passage, thats says ALL who are saved will be disobedient. Not to EARN salvation, But BECAUSE they are saved.

thats your problem

I have never stated a person who lives in sin is saved, was ever saved or will be saved.

But your trying to look at me through religious eyes. and not seeing or hearing anything I say

 

[BreadOfLife]

You focus on works to much dude

Faith is never alone..

You make works a requirement where it is not

It is a natural byproduct of true faith. You do not tell someone you trust them then NEVER do anything they say

Your problem is, What I wrote that you highlighted in red Is speaking of those who preach faith PLUS works being required for salvation.

Once again, There is no such things as faith devoid of works, Well except in the case of the thief on the cross and a man who repents on his death bed, Who is not given time to produce works.

But works are a BYPRODUCT or RESULT of our faith and new birth. Not added to faith to gain or keep our salvation

WRONG.

Works are an essential component of faith - not a "byproduct" of after-effect.
Christ makes this blindingly clear (Matt. 28: 31-46) - and so do James (James 2:14-26) and Paul (1 Cor. 12:1-13, Gal. 5:6).

YOU misrepresent this position by repeatedly regurgitating this "salvation by works" nonsense. That is NOT the Catholic or Biblical position.
Faith is NOT simply "belief" (James 2:19). It is Belief + Works (obedience).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WRONG.

Works are an essential component of faith - not a "byproduct" of after-effect.
Christ makes this blindingly clear (Matt. 28: 31-46) - and so do James (James 2:14-26) and Paul (1 Cor. 12:1-13, Gal. 5:6).

YOU misrepresent this position by repeatedly regurgitating this "salvation by works" nonsense. That is NOT the Catholic or Biblical position.
Faith is NOT simply "belief" (James 2:19). It is Belief + Works (obedience).

yawn

Whatever dude

You want to believe that a dead faith is living faith, Then feel free.

I am done with our conversation..

I suggest, you eat the bread of life. Jesus said whoever eats of it, He will NEVER DIE, he will LIVE FOREVER, he will NEVER HUNGER, He has PASSED from DEATH TO LIFE. and he WILL 9not might) Be resurrected on the last day. (john 6)

Since you use this nic, I think it would be a good idea for you to understand what (who) the bread of life is, and what happens to EVERYONE who partakes of it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

yawn
Whatever dude
You want to believe that a dead faith is living faith, Then feel free.
I am done with our conversation..
I suggest, you eat the bread of life. Jesus said whoever eats of it, He will NEVER DIE, he will LIVE FOREVER, he will NEVER HUNGER, He has PASSED from DEATH TO LIFE. and he WILL 9not might) Be resurrected on the last day. (john 6)

Since you use this nic, I think it would be a good idea for you to understand what (who) the bread of life is, and what happens to EVERYONE who partakes of it.

I DO eat the Bread of Life and drink His Blood in the Eucharist, as He commanded. YOU don't.
You go on thinking that ALL you have to do is "believe" in order to be saved - and that you can be as disobedient as you want - and see how that works out for you.

And don't think I forgot that you couldn't show me ONE SINGLE Scriptural example where a disobedient servant attains salvation.
This is just another textbook example of your perverted theology . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

ALL are disobedient servants every day of their life. and you??

To stumble in sin and to life a life of willful disobedience are two completely different matters.

A faithful servant will stumble from time to time because of our fallen nature - but we strive to lease the Lord and do His will and repent when we stumble. This is what Paul describes in Rom. 7:14-25.

The disobedient person believes that they can do whatever they want - and it doesn't matter because they are already "saved" because of their belief. This falsehood is obliterated by Scriptures verses like Matt. 28: 31-46, James 2:19, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6 and many more.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I DO eat the Bread of Life and drink His Blood in the Eucharist, as He commanded. YOU don't.
You go on thinking that ALL you have to do is "believe" in order to be saved - and that you can be as disobedient as you want - and see how that works out for you.

And don't think I forgot that you couldn't show me ONE SINGLE Scriptural example where a disobedient servant attains salvation.
This is just another textbook example of your perverted theology . . .

Nope

John 6 says the bread is not like the bread in the OT, where people eat it and must continue to eat it, because if they do not, They will die

He says this whoever eats this bread will live forever, Never die, Has eternal life, Will never hunger or thirst. and will be raised on the last day

the fact

1. You continue to hunger
2. Continue to have to partake of it
3. Can still die AFTER you eat it
4. Do not have eternal life assured even though you have eaten it
5. Are not assured you will be raised on the last day

Proves you have not partook of the bread of life

What your following is a pagan ritual.

You can have that bread. it is no better than manna. it has no life sustaining properties

I want the bread that Christ offered in John 6. (the words I give are spirit and they are life)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope

John 6 says the bread is not like the bread in the OT, where people eat it and must continue to eat it, because if they do not, They will die

He says this whoever eats this bread will live forever, Never die, Has eternal life, Will never hunger or thirst. and will be raised on the last day

the fact

1. You continue to hunger
2. Continue to have to partake of it
3. Can still die AFTER you eat it
4. Do not have eternal life assured even though you have eaten it
5. Are not assured you will be raised on the last day

Proves you have not partook of the bread of life

What your following is a pagan ritual.

You can have that bread. it is no better than manna. it has no life sustaining properties

I want the bread that Christ offered in John 6. (the words I give are spirit and they are life)

WRONG again.
Time for a Bible, history and linguistics lesson . . .

In the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, Jesus emphatically tells the crowd that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood or they have NO life within them (John 6:53). Interestingly enough - He doesn't use the normal word for human eating (phagon). He uses the word for the way an animal gnaws and rips apart his food (trogon).

The Early Christians were accused of cannibalism for their belief in the Eucharist. We read this in the writings of Josephus and Minucius Felix. This cannibalism myth was ONE of the reasons they were being persecuted.

FIRST century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch who was a student of the Apostle John, wrote the following about the Eucharist:

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 107]).

Many of YOUR Protestant Fathers also believed in the Real Presence. The perverted teachings about the Eucharist NOT being the Flesh and Blood of Christ is LESS than 500 years old.

As for your false idea that the Bread of Life Discourse guarantees that we will no longer hunger or thirst for physical food - you completely MISSED Christ's point. The Eucharist is SPIRITUAL food intended to nourish us spiritually. We will live forever - SPIRITUALLY.

EVERYBODY will hunger and thirst for physical food and EVERYBODY will die - whether they believe in the Real Presence or not . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WRONG again.
Time for a Bible, history and linguistics lesson . . .

In the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, Jesus emphatically tells the crowd that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood or they have NO life within them (John 6:53). Interestingly enough - He doesn't use the normal word for human eating (phagon). He uses the word for the way an animal gnaws and rips apart his food (trogon).

The Early Christians were accused of cannibalism for their belief in the Eucharist. We read this in the writings of Josephus and Minucius Felix. This cannibalism myth was ONE of the reasons they were being persecuted.

FIRST century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch who was a student of the Apostle John, wrote the following about the Eucharist:

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 107]).

Many of YOUR Protestant Fathers also believed in the Real Presence. The perverted teachings about the Eucharist NOT being the Flesh and Blood of Christ is LESS than 500 years old.

As for your false idea that the Bread of Life Discourse guarantees that we will no longer hunger or thirst for physical food - you completely MISSED Christ's point. The Eucharist is SPIRITUAL food intended to nourish us spiritually. We will live forever - SPIRITUALLY.

EVERYBODY will hunger and thirst for physical food and EVERYBODY will die - whether they believe in the Real Presence or not . . .

Excuse me but I do not follow men. I follow the word of God.
And a man says anything that does not line up with what the word says. I reject it. As should you

you have yet to counter what Jesus said all who eat that bread will receive. So you can either show me in the passage where I am mistaken. Or I will move on and continue to suggest you eat the true bread of life who gives eternal life to all who eat it. Ie. They will never die. As Jesus promised

 

[BreadOfLife]

Excuse me but I do not follow men. I follow the word of God.
And a man says anything that does not line up with what the word says. I reject it. As should you

you have yet to counter what Jesus said all who eat that bread will receive. So you can either show me in the passage where I am mistaken. Or I will move on and continue to suggest you eat the true bread of life who gives eternal life to all who eat it. Ie. They will never die. As Jesus promised

WRONG.
YOU follow what men in the 16th century said about the Word of God.

As a matter of fact - tens of thousands of men have interpreted the Scriptures in tens of thousands of different ways - which is why we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines and ALL claim they they have the "truth".

Tell me - WHICH one of them are correct??
WHICH has the proper understanding of the Eucharist?

Jesus didn't leave us with a Book to figure out on our own. He left is with a Church to be the earthly Authority for His people (Matt./ 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-22).
He said of that earthly Authority:
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Good luck with that . . .