The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Eternally Grateful]

Pray tell, what is it about?
I didn’t say they washed their own sins

Nor did I claim you said it. Please try to read what others are saying

- “washed” in 1Cor 6:11 refers to baptism, which allows the believer to receive grace through faith, which helps him repent and obey God’s commandments -

Um no, where do you come up with this? It says they (there sins) were WASHED, It means as the scripture says, they were washed and made whiter than snow. And while ye, baptism was involved (holy spirit baptism not water) it was based on the fact they HAD repented. and through the faith which followed this repentance. God saved them, and his BLOOD washed there sins.

which is sanctification, which is the works that lead to justification.

You have it backwards.

Justification is by Faith, which is a result of repentance which is a result of God.

Sanctification is what Follows. The person who was saved by Faith, Justified by Faith, And given the power to become a child of God through faith. Is sanctified by the work of God in their lives as they are made more like Christ.

This process requires grace working together with the free will of the believer.

Yep

You have free will to say Yes God and let him wash you

Or yes God I want your salvation. But I also want to help pay for it. In which case, you have rejected Gods grace.

Grace does not take over a believer’s mind and prevent him from sinning - that would destroy the whole point of God giving man free will.

I never said it did. Nor does that have any bearing on our salvation.

Men sin because the flesh is still strong, and until a man is sanctified to maturity, they still go through growing pains of having to learn to trust God in different areas of their lives.

remember the word of God

By One offering he has PERFECTED FOREVER (justification) those who are BEING SANCTIFIED. Heb 10: 14

And he who BEGAN a good work in your WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ. Phil 1: 6

Now either you believe God in these two basic promises concerning his gospel.

Or you do not

Me? I chose to believe God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh, so now you're saying believers don't sin!

No

John said they do not practice or live in sin

Did John lie?

its not about me bro.its about what John said

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’m not surprised they get confused - in one post, you say (a) repentance is the work of God; then in another post, you say (b) repentance is the choice of the believer; then in this post, you say (c) repentance is both the work of God AND the choice of the believer! If you made your position (c) clear from the beginning, there would have been no confusion.

Yawn

This sounds like a person who wants to poke wholes in someone else's belief system because it does not match their own.

Repentance is a work of God. It the work of God who teaches us, Convicts us, And brings us to CHOSE (free will) to REPENT.

This has been my position from the beginning.

But having said that, I agree with your position (c) to a certain extent.I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, which is incorrect. My understanding is that repentance the result the free will of the believer cooperating with the grace of God that comes with faith. Grace not only makes the believer aware of his sinful state, but gives him the power to do something about - as in, to stop sinning by obeying “His commandments” (although due to our fallen natures, perfect obedience is not always possible).That is not the best analogy. If acts of repentance are the result of a combination of grace and the believer’s free will, you can’t say they are due entirely to grace (the work of God), because you simply don’t know that. Besides, it’s more likely that the will of the believer plays a part, acting along with grace - after all, Rev 3:4-5 says those who “conquer” are “worthy” of salvation. I’m not aware of any Scripture that supports your point of view (which stems from your mistaken and illogical belief that you are saved before you have been fully tested and judged).

You have a mixture of justification and sanctification here. While I agree it is Gods grace which ALLOWS us to repent, and be changed by receiving his gift. and this Same Grace and POWER given by being made Children of God which allows us to change our lives and become obedient children.

Lets stick to justification ok? As this is the topic of our discussion.

We can discuss sanctification, or christian growth after we get this problem settled.

I obey the commandments because
(a) I love God and I want to please Him,
(b) if I don’t obey the commandments, I could be putting my salvation at risk, as we will all be judged by our deeds (2Cor 5:10),
(c) obeying God’s commandments is the best way to bring peace and joy into the world.In Rev 3:1-5, Jesus is not happy with the “works” of believers in the Church in Sardis. However, a few of them had not “soiled their garments” (presumably, because their “works” were good), and therefore they are “worthy” of salvation. Jesus then says “He who CONQUERS will be clothed like them in white garments” - meaning he who CONQUERS their sins (ie, repents) and produces good works (ie, obedience to “His commandments”) will be saved. This is reminiscent of what God told Cain in Genesis 4:7, “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, SIN is lurking at the door; its desire is for you, but you must MASTER it.”

so in other words. You obey as a work in order to earn your salvation, Thinking if you obey enough and re strong enough in your own power to not break to many commands (sin) then God will somehow say it is ok you broke these commands, I will still let you in..because you did not commit these sins, or commit to many sins (how many sins is to many)


Here. Let me give you my testimony

I obey Gods commands

1. Because he has given me the power and desire to
2. Because I love him and am grateful to him for saving me from an eternal hell
3. Because he he first loved me, I can now love others. Which is how we are obedient to him.
4. Because he is not a spirit by which to fear. But my abba father, When I do fail. I can boldly come to him, knowing I will be forgiven, and given even greater strength to chose correctly the next time
5. Since I have eternal life (not looking to earn it) I as John said, have the power to continue to believe in his name, And as I continue to believe, He who began a good work in me WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ, So My focus remains on him, as I continue to run forward, and not on myself. and how I am performing. (hence God gets all the credit)

 

[Dave M]

Oh, so now you're saying believers don't sin!

they dont make a habit of sin, there lifestyle is not in sin. it is extremely important to grasp what living in sin is, and stumbling in sin.

Real world example..
-living in sin,,,, going out and having sex before marriage, getting drunk on a regular basis, watching porn, etc....

- Stumbling is sin, you struggle with sexual desires, and you lust after a women in your mind for a while, or even have sex. Now you feel horrible you know you have done wrong you cant stand yourself any longer. You repent even maybe fast, so Jesus will make you stronger
and take these desires from you.

Jesus gives us a new heart, so we hate sin !!!

 

[RogerDC]

your stuck on one passage, a passage where james was refuting belief only people, people who had no faith proven by the fact they had no works. Ie, their faith was dead.

I see, so according to you, James 2 tells people with “no faith” that their “faith” is dead. Pray tell … how can their “faith” be dead if they had no faith to begin with? That is interesting "logic"!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I see, so according to you, James 2 tells people with “no faith” that their “faith” is dead. Pray tell … how can their “faith” be dead if they had no faith to begin with? That is interesting "logic"!

Actually it is easy

He said they SAID they had faith,

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

He never said they had it

in other words. Their CLAIMED to have faith was false.

And what was his other questions?

Oh yeah

Can faith save him?

Well his answer would be no. How can a dead, lifeless non existent faith save anyone?

One thing he is not doing, Is saying they HAD faith at one time and lost it no where in the passage does it even suggest this

 

[GISMYS_7]

How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!! Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
God says==That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved..........

----------

Here is an "example prayer" if you have never talked to God..........
Heavenly Father:.........
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen

 

[BreadOfLife]

How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!! Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
God says==That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto Salvation.
For whosoever shall call upon thename of the Lord shall be Saved.....

Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven.

Cherry-picking Scripture will get you nowhere.
CONTEXT is key when studying the Scriptures . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven.

Cherry-picking Scripture will get you nowhere.
CONTEXT is key when studying the Scriptures . . .

Yep

This verse shows WHO called on the name of the lord.

IE, those who built their house on CHRIST (the rock) whose foundation was secure and could NEVER be brought down

as apposed to those who build their sand on a foundation of sand (self) which will crumble and never be sustained.

We can just pray those who are trying to build their own foundation based on works, and trying to EARN their salvation. Will realize how weak their foundation is and turn to build that foundation on Christ,

Also. As jesus said, MANY will come in my name professing all their works What was Jesus reply? Depart I NEVER KNEW YOU.

as you said,

Context is KEY,

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yep
This verse shows WHO called on the name of the lord.

IE, those who built their house on CHRIST (the rock) whose foundation was secure and could NEVER be brought down

as apposed to those who build their sand on a foundation of sand (self) which will crumble and never be sustained.

We can just pray those who are trying to build their own foundation based on works, and trying to EARN their salvation. Will realize how weak their foundation is and turn to build that foundation on Christ,

Also. As jesus said, MANY will come in my name professing all their works What was Jesus reply? Depart I NEVER KNEW YOU.

as you said,

Context is KEY,

WRONG.

This verse is about EVERYONE who calls upon the name of the Lord.
The key difference between them are the ones who DID His will are saved - and NOT the ones who simply "believed".

James 2:19 emphatically tells us that even the DEMONS believe.
If that's ALL you do - then you're NO better off than they are . . .

Read ALL of Scripture in its proper context . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WRONG.

This verse is about EVERYONE who calls upon the name of the Lord.
The key difference between them are the ones who DID His will are saved - and NOT the ones who simply "believed".

James 2:19 emphatically tells us that even the DEMONS believe.
If that's ALL you do - then you're NO better off than they are . . .

Read ALL of Scripture in its proper context . . .

Yet Jesus told those who said lord lord he never knew them, And stated the fact, Even thought they had all these great works. They still practiced sin, they never stopped

And the whole bible?

yes John agrees. WHoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD

You see.

Jesus tsll them he never knew them in your passage

And John tells them in 1 John 3, They never knew him

complete agreement.

 

[RogerDC]

You obey as a work in order to earn your salvation.

Call it what you like - obeying God’s commandments is necessary for salvation.

Thinking if you obey enough and strong enough in your own power …

In my “own power”? Why do you assume that my (imperfect) attempts to obey God are the result of my “own power”?

If I am tempted to sin, but say “No”, because I want to please God by obeying Him, would you say my obedience was a result of my “own power”? If so, how do you know God’s grace did not play a part in my obedience?

If I give money to the poor, for example, would you say that good work was a result of my “own power”? If so, how do you know God’s grace did not influence me?

I obey God’s commandments
1. Because he has given me the power and desire to

If you give money to the poor (for example), how do you know that is the result of God’s grace and not your “own power”? Or a combination of both?

If you are tempted to sin … but don’t … how do you know that decision is the result of God’s grace and not your “own power”? Or a combination of both?

then God will somehow say it is ok you broke these commands, I will still let you in..because you did not commit these sins, or commit to many sins (how many sins is to many)

If you want to know how Christ will judge believers, study Rev 2 and 3, where Jesus judges the seven Churches according to their faith and their works, good and bad.

 

[RogerDC]

Repentance is a work of God. It the work of God who teaches us, Convicts us, And brings us to CHOSE (free will) to REPENT.

If you use your free will to repent, then repentance it is not all God's work, but your work as well. Repentance is both God's work (grace) and your work (free will).

Furthermore, you appear to be contradicting yourself - if you use your free will to repent, according to you, doesn't that amount to "boasting" and "taking the credit away from God"?

 

[RogerDC]

Um no, where do you come up with this? It says they (there sins) were WASHED, It means as the scripture says, they were washed and made whiter than snow. And while ye, baptism was involved (holy spirit baptism not water) it was based on the fact they HAD repented. and through the faith which followed this repentance. God saved them, and his BLOOD washed there sins.

The words “you were washed … in the name of Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit” in 1Cor 6:11 are an obvious reference to baptism.
”Rise and be baptized, and WASH away your sins, calling on HIS NAME” (Acts 22:16);

”Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the WASHING OF WATER with the WORD” (Eph 5:26-27);

”He saved us … by the WASHING of regeneration and renewal in the HOLY SPIRIT” (Titus 3:5);

”Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unlike one is born of WATER and the SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven” (John 3:5)

Justification is by Faith

My Bible says justification is by faith AND works:
”a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24);

“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14);

“the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12);

”For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1John 5:3);

“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected” (1John 2:3-4)

Yes God I want your salvation. But I also want to help pay for it. In which case, you have rejected God’s grace.

If I obey His commandments, have I “rejected God’s grace”? If so, why does Rev 14:12 describes the “saints” as “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus”?

Now either you believe God in these two basic promises concerning his gospel.

I believe in God’s promises, but the promises are conditional - the believer must prove himself “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4) by using his free will to cooperate with grace and “conquer” his works (Rev 3:5) by obeying His commandments - this is the process known as sanctification and it leads to justification.

 

[RogerDC]

so now you’re saying believers don’t sin!

No
John said they do not practice or live in sin
Did John lie?
its not about me bro.its about what John said

No. John said they don’t practice sin or live in sin. Did John lie?

You seem to be contradicting yourself again - to say, “they don’t practice sin or live in sin”, is to say “they don’t sin”.

John said, “Anyone born of God does not commit sin, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God” (1John 3:9). Only the terminally clueless or a Bible beginner would interpret those words literally. Do you really think believers don’t sin - at all?

 

[RogerDC]

Actually it is easy

He said they SAID they had faith,

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

He never said they had it

in other words. Their CLAIMED to have faith was false.

And what was his other questions?

Nonsense. You’ve ignored that the next sentence in that verse, which says “Can his faith save him?” In other words, James is referring to someone who has faith. So your argument fails.

Likewise, when James says, “faith without works is dead” (v.26), he is obviously referring to someone who has faith. According to your curious interpretation, James is referring to someone without faith, so he is really saying, “no faith without works is dead”. Bizarre.

 

[RogerDC]

I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS ANY SUCH THING AS FAITH ALONE! FAITH WILL NEVER BE ALONE!!!

James clearly contradicts you - he says “a man is justified by works and not be faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”, so he obviously thinks (a) faith and works are two separate things and (b) faith can exist without works … meaning there certainly is such a thing as faith alone.

 

[RogerDC]

if we have to work to enter heaven, we will HAVE to do greater than what Jesus did.

Says who?

How did you arrive at the strange conclusion that keeping His commandments is "greater than what Jesus did"?

if we have to work to enter heaven, we will HAVE to do greater than what Jesus did.​

​

As for me, I’ll believe what my Bible says - we DO have to “work” to get to Heaven:
“For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” ( 2Cor 5:10);

“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14);

”a man is justified by works and not be faith alone” (James 2:24);

“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected” (1John 2:3-4);

”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (John 3:36);

“He who through faith is righteous shall live” (Romans 1:17);

“the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12);

Jesus judges the seven Churches in Rev 2 and 3 according to both their faith and their WORKS (works = keeping His commandments). I expect all believers will be judged according to the same criteria.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Little man's ideas and words OR God's

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yet Jesus told those who said lord lord he never knew them, And stated the fact, Even thought they had all these great works. They still practiced sin, they never stopped

And the whole bible?

yes John agrees. WHoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD

You see.

Jesus tsll them he never knew them in your passage

And John tells them in 1 John 3, They never knew him

complete agreement.

You have completely misunderstood this passage (Matt. 7:21-23) because you are a Scriptural cherry-picker and do NOT read the Scriptures in CONTEXT. You pit verses against each other - and that is a perversion. Scripture must ALL harmonize.

In Eph. 2:10, Paul reminds us that ALL of the works that are part of our faith were prepared for us in advance by God. Therefore - they're not "OUR" works. We're just the instrument. We can either choose to DO them or NOT which make them an essential component of faith.

Protestants erroneously believe that "Belief" and "Faith" are the same thing - they are NOT. We know this because, as I already told you - James reminds us that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God (James 2:19) but they don't have FAITH.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (Obedience)
You cannot he have one without the other and still have faith . . .