The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[RogerDC]

Hmm

so if I have zero works, my faith is dead.

so according to James, how many works would mean a living faith

if zero equals no faith

then x = living faith

give me the value of x

You didn’t answer my questions from the previous post: What do you mean by “doers of the word”? What do “doers of the word” actually DO? Please tell me.

According to you, works are directly proportional to faith, so how much “faith” do you need to be saved? Can you tell me? If you can’t tell me how much “faith” you need to be saved, you can’t say you know you are saved, can you?

 

[RogerDC]

Yeah, he also said they never stop those sins,

Which part of 1Cor 6:9-11 (or elsewhere) says “they never stop those sins”?

Does “And such WERE some of you” (v.11) sounds like they never stopped those sins? Nope.

he said the blood of Christ washed those sins, and justified them and sanctified them

There is no mention of “the blood of Christ” is the entire chapter - you are thinking of the unconditional and universal sanctification that comes from the shed blood of Christ (Heb 10:29), but what Paul is referring to here is the personal sanctification of the body with comes from turning away from immorality and sin (Romans 6:12-23, 1Thess 4:3-8).

When Paul means by “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified”, is the three-step formula for salvation: (a) the washing away of past sins by baptism, (b) being sanctified by personal righteousness by obeying the commandments, and (c) being justified by obeying the commandments, which is what James means by being “justified by works” (James 2:24).

There are (at least) three forms of sanctification:
the first is the sanctification that comes from the shed blood of Jesus (Heb 10:29);
the second is the sanctification that comes from God’s truth (John 17:17);
the third is personal sanctification of the body (1Cor 6:13-20) - “your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit … Glorify God in your body.” This third form of sanctification is achieved by obeying the commandments of God (Romans 6:12-23, 1Thess 4:3-8) and is otherwise known as “holiness” or “righteousness”.

 

[RogerDC]

Yeah, he also said they never stop those sins,

So, Paul tells believers 1Cor 6 that “the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and then demonstrates what he means by “unrighteous” by describing certain sins. But you claim “they never stop those sins”? If you are correct and those believers kept sinning after Paul warned them, then they “will not inherit the kingdom of God”.

 

[RogerDC]

repentance is not a work because it is not something you do on your own, it is the work of God, I know, that’s hard for you unto hear, but God gets the glory not me

Let’s consider this example: Someone who was a professional thief becomes a believer and learns that stealing is a sin and contrary to the will of God, and consequently stops stealing - in other words, he repents.
You seem to be arguing that his act of repentance was the “work of God” and not an act of free will on the part of the believer, so therefore repentance is not “works”. If that is your argument, it is completely pointless because it’s pure speculation - you cannot prove repentance is a “work of God” … just as no one can prove repentance is an act of a believer’s free will.

If a believer is tempted to sin and choses not to, it is impossible to determine if that choice was a “work of God” or a result of the believer’s free will, or a combination of both.

 

[RogerDC]

So you agree that “keeping His commandments” is “works”?

Yes, and if your trying to do them to be saved, you will fail

It seems that Scripture does not agree with you:
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).
Keeping the commandments is what “holiness” is. So we are told to “strive”/try/do our best to keep the commandments, as doing so is essential for salvation.

Are you saying, if a believer has a weakness for stealing, for example, he should not “strive”/try/do his best to keep the commandment that says “Thou shall not steal”? Or if a believer has homosexual tendencies, he should not “strive”/try/do his best to obey the commandment that says homosexual acts are sinful?
What do you suggest - that a believer should just give up and abandon himself to every temptation to sin that comes along?

Do you not understand that God allows us to be tempted in order to test our faith and our love for Him? God has used this test from the very beginning - starting with Adam and Eve.

 

[Paul Christensen]

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven Churches according to what they did right and what they did wrong (which includes their faith and their works, if you care to read those chapters). You will be judged the same way, I imagine.

I will be judged on whether I kept to the standards required of me in relation to God's moral law. I will be found guilty because I have not been able to maintain that standard. The Scripture says that if I seek to be justified by God according to keeping God's moral law, then I need to live by that law without a single fault from my youth up. I have lied, stolen, taken God's name in vain, and have looked at women with lust. Therefore I am a liar, thief, blasphemer, and an adulterer at heart. That is how I am going to appear before God at the judgment. So my attempted and failed compliance with God's moral law won't save me from receiving the ultimate penalty for sin. Sin is the transgression of the law - God's moral law, and so because the Scripture says, "the soul who sins will sure die", then that is what I am to face - if I am depending on God's justification by keeping His moral law - in other words by my works. But my works have failed to come up to God's standards, and so they have failed me to gain salvation by them.

 

[RogerDC]

Catholicism is based on works

Ya got that wrong - Catholicism is salvation by faith and works - just as James 2:24 teaches (“a man is justified by works and not by faith alone),
and as does Rev 12:17 (“those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”),
as does John 3:36 (”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him”)..

Without works, Catholicism falls on its face

Ya got that right - James said “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). Catholicism does not preach “dead” faith

… neither does Romans 6:22-23 (“the wages of sin is death”),
nor Heb 12:14 (“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Which part of 1Cor 6:9-11 (or elsewhere) says “they never stop those sins”?

Does “And such WERE some of you” (v.11) sounds like they never stopped those sins? Nope.
There is no mention of “the blood of Christ” is the entire chapter - you are thinking of the unconditional and universal sanctification that comes from the shed blood of Christ (Heb 10:29), but what Paul is referring to here is the personal sanctification of the body with comes from turning away from immorality and sin (Romans 6:12-23, 1Thess 4:3-8).

When Paul means by “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified”, is the three-step formula for salvation: (a) the washing away of past sins by baptism, (b) being sanctified by personal righteousness by obeying the commandments, and (c) being justified by obeying the commandments, which is what James means by being “justified by works” (James 2:24).

There are (at least) three forms of sanctification:
the first is the sanctification that comes from the shed blood of Jesus (Heb 10:29);
the second is the sanctification that comes from God’s truth (John 17:17);
the third is personal sanctification of the body (1Cor 6:13-20) - “your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit … Glorify God in your body.” This third form of sanctification is achieved by obeying the commandments of God (Romans 6:12-23, 1Thess 4:3-8) and is otherwise known as “holiness” or “righteousness”.

You must be confused by what the book of Corinthians is about

And by the way,,

He said and such were some of you. But you were WASHED, SANCTIFIED AND JUSTIFIED. by Jesus

Good luck trying to wash your own sins.. I fear you will find out the hard way how impossible that is

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, Paul tells believers 1Cor 6 that “the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and then demonstrates what he means by “unrighteous” by describing certain sins. But you claim “they never stop those sins”? If you are correct and those believers kept sinning after Paul warned them, then they “will not inherit the kingdom of God”.

Your right,

Those people will not inherit the kingdom

John said that those born of God are NOT THOSE PEOPLE as those born of God do not practice sin??

You keep ignoring the apostle john. How do you expect for me to give what you say any thought when you constantly ignore what John said?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Let’s consider this example: Someone who was a professional thief becomes a believer and learns that stealing is a sin and contrary to the will of God, and consequently stops stealing - in other words, he repents.
You seem to be arguing that his act of repentance was the “work of God” and not an act of free will on the part of the believer, so therefore repentance is not “works”. If that is your argument, it is completely pointless because it’s pure speculation - you cannot prove repentance is a “work of God” … just as no one can prove repentance is an act of a believer’s free will.

If a believer is tempted to sin and choses not to, it is impossible to determine if that choice was a “work of God” or a result of the believer’s free will, or a combination of both.

Your talking about repent from one sin, Thats not what the gospel is about

yet even in your own example

If he repented of that sin, Who showed him that sin was evil. WHo taught him the problems with that sin, And who empowered hi to break the bond of that sin?

That's who you have to give credit to. That's who you have to boast about.

You want to take credit, where is your honor of God. How can a church which claims to be Gods church want to desperately to take honor away from God, and give it to itself.

Oh wait, its not the first time this happened, It happened with the jews.

Satan duped to churches. And each fell hook line and sinker

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It seems that Scripture does not agree with you:
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).
Keeping the commandments is what “holiness” is. So we are told to “strive”/try/do our best to keep the commandments, as doing so is essential for salvation.

Are you saying, if a believer has a weakness for stealing, for example, he should not “strive”/try/do his best to keep the commandment that says “Thou shall not steal”? Or if a believer has homosexual tendencies, he should not “strive”/try/do his best to obey the commandment that says homosexual acts are sinful?
What do you suggest - that a believer should just give up and abandon himself to every temptation to sin that comes along?

Do you not understand that God allows us to be tempted in order to test our faith and our love for Him? God has used this test from the very beginning - starting with Adam and Eve.

so now your saying your sinless?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ya got that wrong - Catholicism is salvation by faith and works - just as James 2:24 teaches (“a man is justified by works and not by faith alone),
and as does Rev 12:17 (“those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus”),
as does John 3:36 (”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him”).. Ya got that right - James said “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). Catholicism does not preach “dead” faith

… neither does Romans 6:22-23 (“the wages of sin is death”),
nor Heb 12:14 (“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”).

Thank you you just proved me right, Just because you add the word faith in there, does not counter the fact, that you admit your church preaches a gospel of works.

Now deny it again, and I will just bring up this post where you admit you believe in a gospel of works..

 

[RogerDC]

as for claiming that I said repentance is a work of God and not according to our free will, I said no such thing … we have to CHOSE to repent

In that case, to avoid confusing other posters, you need to use terminology that makes sense. In previous posts you said repentance is a “work of God”, but now you’re saying repentance is a choice made as a result of a believer’s free will.
Please explain how a believer using his free will to make a choice (to repent) is a “work of God”? That’s like saying, “I use free will to choose to eat an ice-cream - my free choice is a work of God”. Baffling stuff.

we have to CHOSE to repent of our world view

Repentance is more than changing one’s point of view - it usually involves changing one’s behaviour - for example, if a habitual thief becomes a believer, he learns that stealing is a sin and he consequently stops stealing, thus performing a act of repentance. Repentance is obeying the commandments of God - in the case of the thief, it is obeying the commandment to not steal.

Obeying the commandments of God is “works” - repentance is obeying the commandments of God - thus, repentance is “works”.

But even as Jesus said when he was asked what works we must do. "It is the WORK OF GOD that you believe in the one he sent.

To “believe in the one he sent” is to not only believe in Jesus, but to also obey Jesus. To obey Jesus is to “keep His commandments” (1John 2:3-4), which is “works”.
When the rich man asked Jesus what he must do to eternal life, the first thing Jesus told him was to obey the commandments (aka “works”). This is reiterated in Rev 12:17, where Christians are identified as ““those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (and repeated in Rev 14:12) - ie, faith and works.

 

[mjrhealth]

“keep His commandments

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

that is His commandemnt

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In that case, to avoid confusing other posters, you need to use terminology that makes sense. In previous posts you said repentance is a “work of God”, but now you’re saying repentance is a choice made as a result of a believer’s free will.

well thanks for being like most so called great Catholics I have had discussions with, and twisting peoples words to make it appear like they are confused

I did say it was the work of God. ITS NOT OUR WORK!

Please explain how a believer using his free will to make a choice (to repent) is a “work of God”? That’s like saying, “I use free will to choose to eat an ice-cream - my free choice is a work of God”. Baffling stuff.Repentance is more than changing one’s point of view - it usually involves changing one’s behaviour - for example, if a habitual thief becomes a believer, he learns that stealing is a sin and he consequently stops stealing, thus performing a act of repentance. Repentance is obeying the commandments of God - in the case of the thief, it is obeying the commandment to not steal.

You chose to build a house, and live in that house. Yet you did not do the work of building the house, A contractor did. The contractor gets the credit for building your house. Not you.

You want to take credit way from God. Thats on you, If you think you whipped up the knowledge to be able to chose to repent on your own, Your sadly mistaken.

For once, Can you Give God some credit?

Obeying the commandments of God is “works” - repentance is obeying the commandments of God - thus, repentance is “works”.To “believe in the one he sent” is to not only believe in Jesus, but to also obey Jesus. To obey Jesus is to “keep His commandments” (1John 2:3-4), which is “works”.
When the rich man asked Jesus what he must do to eternal life, the first thing Jesus told him was to obey the commandments (aka “works”). This is reiterated in Rev 12:17, where Christians are identified as ““those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (and repeated in Rev 14:12) - ie, faith and works.

Yep they are, And if your obeying commands to RECIEVE salvation and not out of gratitude you have Been saved,

You are working to EARN your salvation

By definition thus you are rejecting the ability to RECEIVE the gift.

 

[RogerDC]

You must be confused by what the book of Corinthians is about

Pray tell, what is it about?

And by the way, He said and such were some of you. But you were WASHED, SANCTIFIED AND JUSTIFIED. by Jesus

Good luck trying to wash your own sins.. I fear you will find out the hard way how impossible that is

I didn’t say they washed their own sins - “washed” in 1Cor 6:11 refers to baptism, which allows the believer to receive grace through faith, which helps him repent and obey God’s commandments - which is sanctification, which is the works that lead to justification. This process requires grace working together with the free will of the believer. Grace does not take over a believer’s mind and prevent him from sinning - that would destroy the whole point of God giving man free will.

 

[RogerDC]

Your right,

Those people will not inherit the kingdom

John said that those born of God are NOT THOSE PEOPLE as those born of God do not practice sin??

Oh, so now you're saying believers don't sin!

 

[RogerDC]

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

that is His commandemnt

The Scriptures refer to “His commandmentS” (Rev 12:17, 14:12; 1John 2:3-3, 3:24; 5:3; John 14:15, 15:9) - plural - meaning there is more than one commandment. There are many sins mentioned in the epistles in the NT, which means for each of these sin there is a commandment that says, “Thou shalt not …”

For example, Gal 5 lists the following sins: “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like.”

1Cor 6:9-11 mention more sins: “neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robber will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Romans 1 lists these sins: “ There are many “do’s and don’ts” in the NT, all of which are, in effect, commandments.

 

[RogerDC]

well thanks for being like most so called great Catholics I have had discussions with, and twisting peoples words to make it appear like they are confused

I’m not surprised they get confused - in one post, you say (a) repentance is the work of God; then in another post, you say (b) repentance is the choice of the believer; then in this post, you say (c) repentance is both the work of God AND the choice of the believer! If you made your position (c) clear from the beginning, there would have been no confusion.
But having said that, I agree with your position (c) to a certain extent.

You want to take the credit away from God.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, which is incorrect. My understanding is that repentance the result the free will of the believer cooperating with the grace of God that comes with faith. Grace not only makes the believer aware of his sinful state, but gives him the power to do something about - as in, to stop sinning by obeying “His commandments” (although due to our fallen natures, perfect obedience is not always possible).

You chose to build a house, and live in that house. Yet you did not do the work of building the house, A contractor did. The contractor gets the credit for building your house. Not you.

That is not the best analogy. If acts of repentance are the result of a combination of grace and the believer’s free will, you can’t say they are due entirely to grace (the work of God), because you simply don’t know that. Besides, it’s more likely that the will of the believer plays a part, acting along with grace - after all, Rev 3:4-5 says those who “conquer” are “worthy” of salvation.

Yep they are, And if your obeying commands to RECIEVE salvation and not out of gratitude you have Been saved,

I’m not aware of any Scripture that supports your point of view (which stems from your mistaken and illogical belief that you are saved before you have been fully tested and judged).

I obey the commandments because
(a) I love God and I want to please Him,
(b) if I don’t obey the commandments, I could be putting my salvation at risk, as we will all be judged by our deeds (2Cor 5:10),
(c) obeying God’s commandments is the best way to bring peace and joy into the world.

You are working to EARN your salvation

In Rev 3:1-5, Jesus is not happy with the “works” of believers in the Church in Sardis. However, a few of them had not “soiled their garments” (presumably, because their “works” were good), and therefore they are “worthy” of salvation. Jesus then says “He who CONQUERS will be clothed like them in white garments” - meaning he who CONQUERS their sins (ie, repents) and produces good works (ie, obedience to “His commandments”) will be saved. This is reminiscent of what God told Cain in Genesis 4:7, “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, SIN is lurking at the door; its desire is for you, but you must MASTER it.”

 

[mjrhealth]

The Scriptures refer to “His commandmentS” (Rev 12:17, 14:12; 1John 2:3-3, 3:24; 5:3; John 14:15, 15:9) - plural - meaning there is more than one commandment. There are many sins mentioned in the epistles in the NT, which means for each of these sin there is a commandment that says, “Thou shalt not …”

For example, Gal 5 lists the following sins: “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like.”

1Cor 6:9-11 mention more sins: “neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robber will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Romans 1 lists these sins: “ There are many “do’s and don’ts” in the NT, all of which are, in effect, commandments.

Ye this one

Mar_12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar_12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Love why do you have such a problem with It are you so bad....

Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

You do know God is love...