The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[justbyfaith]

Cherry-picking Scripture instead of reading it in its proper context is precisely why you are so confused.

Don’t just quote Scripture - LEARN what it means . . .

How condescending...

I make it a point to understand what I am reading.

That's great - but Scripture would respond to you with the following . . .

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Good luck with that . . .

No one is denying indwelling sin...I declare to you that it is rendered dead within me (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8).

YOU stumble like everybody else.

I don't; for as long as I will abide.

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[Enoch111]

Believers are called to co-operate with God's Plan of Salvation, or they will forfeit their salvation!

Obviously you have manufactured ANOTHER GOSPEL. Let's call it "The Gospel according to the latter-day Zachary".

Since eternal life is a FREE GIFT of God's grace to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, no effort on anyone's part makes it more secure. Therefore no one forfeits their salvation. Otherwise you would forfeit your salvation by posting this false gospel.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn 11:25,26)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

It is also clear from Scripture that repentance is a condition for salvation, and that those who are saved by grace must depart from iniquity, deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. This is so basic that it does not even need to be repeated.

 

[Grams]

justbyfaithWell-Known Member
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Because it is written,

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How condescending...

I make it a point to understand what I am reading.

No one is denying indwelling sin...I declare to you that it is rendered dead within me (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8).

I don't; for as long as I will abide.

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You speak out of both sides of your mouth.

First, you say that you are sin-free – THEN you say that you have “indwelling” sin.
Which is it??

As for 1 John 3:6 – this is about living a sinful life, in context – not about stumbling, which ALL people do.

 

[Truther]

It's incredibly incredible, but I can almost make the case that
the baptism talked about in Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16
actually refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit
with the initial confirmation of speaking in tongues!

For all of these believers (at the very beginning: Acts 2)) did experience da blue!
And the early church was absolutely filled with believers who experienced da blue!
How and why the church moved away from this should be obvious,
but perhaps it's only through spiritual revelation (I'm not sure).
.

I bet you think Acts 2:38 is saying this?...

......repent and be baptized every one of you by the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Huh?

I suppose Matt 28:19 says this too?....

Go ye therefore into all the world baptizing them in the Holy Spirit....?

 

[justbyfaith]

You speak out of both sides of your mouth.

First, you say that you are sin-free – THEN you say that you have “indwelling” sin.
Which is it??

As for 1 John 3:6 – this is about living a sinful life, in context – not about stumbling, which ALL people do.

Did you not understand my point? We all have indwelling sin. But it can be rendered dead within us, so that it has no authority or say over our behaviour or what we do.

So then, I can have indwelling sin and yet be free from the committing of sins in my practical life.

Try to think about what I am saying here.

Sin is rendered dead (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8). It is not alive in me, dictating my behaviour as when it was alive within me.

And I beg to differ from your statement that all people stumble. Three verses might tell us otherwise:

1) Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Here, the Lord is able to keep us from falling; all we need do is avail ourselves of His power.

(Isa 27:4, Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Isa 27:5, Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.)

2) 2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Here, if we fulfill the conditions presented, we shall never fall: all one needs to do so that he may never fall is to fulfill the conditions presented here (i.e. give diligence to make one's calling and election sure).

3) 1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Here, if I love my brother I abide in the light and there is none occasion of stumbling within me.

What about that statement is it that you don't understand?

It is directly in contradiction to your idea that everyone stumbles.

 

[justbyfaith]

As for 1 John 3:6 – this is about living a sinful life, in context – not about stumbling, which ALL people do.

If we stumble, it is because we are not abiding in Him.

As long as we abide we sin not, I think that 1 John 3:6 is clear on that.

 

[Zachary]

This is so basic that it does not even need to be repeated.

The world is absolutely filled with people like you
who are so absolutely sure that they know everything,
but are, in fact, deceived spiritually.
I don't post this to be mean-spirited, but just to warn you!

Anything beyond simple belief-trust in Jesus and His gospel is co-operating with God.
.

 

[Zachary]

I bet you think Acts 2:38 is saying this?...
......repent and be baptized every one of you by the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
I suppose Matt 28:19 says this too?....
Go ye therefore into all the world baptizing them in the Holy Spirit....?

I said that I could ALMOST make a deal out of it ... but, really I cannot.
Your translation makes it very clear that ...
Peter is talking about being baptized into the church (1 Cor 12:13).

FYI, you have NO idea what being "baptized with the Holy Spirit" refers to!
It's mostly only understood by those millions who have been so-baptized.
If you are open to it, I can explain it to you.
.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The entire easy believism movement was started to omit water baptism for the remission of sins to be saved.(Acts 2:38)
It also included omitting believing and water baptism to be saved(Mark 16:16).

Belief-onlyism also omits the need to repent (Luke 13:3) and confess Matthew 10:32-33). All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Believers are called to co-operate with God's Plan of Salvation,....

.

Man does have a role in his own salvation:

Acts of the Apostles 2:40 "save yourselves"
2 Corinthians 7:1 "cleanse ourselves"
2 Corinthians 13:5 "examine yourselves"
2 Peter 1:10 "give diligence"
1 Peter 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth"
1 Timothy 4:16 "save thyself"
1 Timothy 5:22 "keep thyself pure"
1 Timothy 6:5 "withdraw thyself"
James 4:7-8 "submit yourselves" "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
Jude 1:21 "keep yourselves in the love of God"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I do not know of anyone who is trying to avoid sin through the avenue of Grace. The notion promoted by theologians that believers are looking for an easy way out is nothing more than the works-based theology that you hear preached in most evangelical churches every Sunday with people responding to altar calls for the same sins over and over again.

THere are those who think they are saved by 'grace alone' and that obedience to the will of God has nothing to do with becoming saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

justbyfaithWell-Known Member
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Because it is written,

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Will those who continue in disobedience to the will of God be saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I bet you think Acts 2:38 is saying this?...

......repent and be baptized every one of you by the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Huh?

I suppose Matt 28:19 says this too?....

Go ye therefore into all the world baptizing them in the Holy Spirit....?

Baptism of Acts 2:38 that is in the name of the Lord is the same baptism in the name of the Lord of Acts 10:47-48 - water baptism. Acts 15:11 Jew and Gentile are saved in a 'like manner' way that being water baptism in the name of the Lord, Jews in Acts 2:38 and Gentiles in Acts 10:57-48.

 

[Davy]

When did Jesus tell them before this? ... Chapter and verse, please.
Thanks for your excellent post ... You seem to know what's goin' on.
.

In general, our Lord gave warnings about signs done by a false prophet back in Deuteronomy 13.

But for His Olivet discourse, He was referring to His emphasis by repeating His warning about the coming of a pseudo-Christ that will work great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, would deceive even His very elect. That is not really about John's "many antichrists" idea. It's about a singular Antichrist, like the one Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that is to come and play God in Jerusalem. The "many antichrists" warning is in that Matthew 24 chapter also; but it was given earlier at Matthew 24:4-5. That warning is different because He didn't show they would work the great signs and wonders to deceive with. We are to mark that difference. The specific Matthew 24:23 and 26 verses are in the singular tense about a specific false Christ. Verse 24 is specific as to what level of power of deception he will work, which is deeper than just one saying they are Christ like those of verse 4-5.

 

[Truther]

Belief-onlyism also omits the need to repent (Luke 13:3) and confess Matthew 10:32-33). All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person.

Right. Fact is, unbaptized believers are walking around in a state of unremitted sins.

Upon believing, the eunuch was told "thou mayest be baptized".

The anti-baptism folks tell them "thou mayest not be baptized".

Crazy world, huh?

 

[Truther]

I said that I could ALMOST make a deal out of it ... but, really I cannot.
Your translation makes it very clear that ...
Peter is talking about being baptized into the church (1 Cor 12:13).

FYI, you have NO idea what being "baptized with the Holy Spirit" refers to!
It's mostly only understood by those millions who have been so-baptized.
If you are open to it, I can explain it to you.
.

Lets look harder...


41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


You are added to the church by baptism, not receiving the Holy Ghost.

 

[Albert Finch]

Will those who continue in disobedience to the will of God be saved?

Disobedience to the will of God -- Example: Living outside of God's purpose for your life.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Did you not understand my point? We all have indwelling sin. But it can be rendered dead within us, so that it has no authority or say over our behaviour or what we do.

So then, I can have indwelling sin and yet be free from the committing of sins in my practical life.

Try to think about what I am saying here.

Sin is rendered dead (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8). It is not alive in me, dictating my behaviour as when it was alive within me.

And I beg to differ from your statement that all people stumble. Three verses might tell us otherwise:

1) Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Here, the Lord is able to keep us from falling; all we need do is avail ourselves of His power.

(Isa 27:4, Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Isa 27:5, Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.)

2) 2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Here, if we fulfill the conditions presented, we shall never fall: all one needs to do so that he may never fall is to fulfill the conditions presented here (i.e. give diligence to make one's calling and election sure).

3) 1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Here, if I love my brother I abide in the light and there is none occasion of stumbling within me.

What about that statement is it that you don't understand?

It is directly in contradiction to your idea that everyone stumbles.

If we stumble, it is because we are not abiding in Him.

As long as we abide we sin not, I think that 1 John 3:6 is clear on that.

And now, you’re just being dishonest.
Thank GOD that Paul and John weren’t.

They explained that although they were fully committed to Christ – they STUMBLED on occasion because their sanctification was not complete (Rom. 7:14-25, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 1:8). They understood and explained that we are in the PROCESS of being sanctified. This process is a LIFELONG journey – not a one-time, slam dunk event.

Once again – the verses you preset are words of encouragement to keep us ono the right track. They are NOT a guarantee that we will ALWAYS stay on that track. We must do what is required by them 100% of the time – 24/7 for the rest of our life in order to be sinless. This would make you perfect – which you ain’t.

Cherry-picking the Word of God has gotten you to this place of total confusion - and spiritual arrogance . . .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Disobedience to the will of God -- Example: Living outside of God's purpose for your life.

Those that continue in disobedience will not be saved, (2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17; 1 John 3:10; Romans 2:8; Luke 6:46) which means "worketh not" of Romans 4:5 or "not of works" of Ephesians 2:9 CANNOT exclude obedience. Hence to be saved requires BOTH God's grace and man's obedience......not 'grace alone'.