The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

Welcome aboard...

Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57] And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Now go and obey Acts 2:38

I said:
Show me ONE verse that shows MARY had other children.
You failed. Try again . . .

James and Joses are shown to be the children of ANOTHER woman named "Mary" who was with Mary, Mother of Jesus near the foot of the cross (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25). The Scriptures refer to her as Mary's "Adelphe" (sister). HOWEVER, we know they aren't uterine sisters because they have the SAME name, which is against Jewish Tradition.

Also,like "Adelphe", "Adelphos" (brother) is used in the NT for brother, stepbrother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc. As a matter of fact, my Scripturally-challenged friend -
244 instances are cases where the word “Adelphos” and all of its variations are used in the NT – 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.
256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling.

Deal with that while you're searching for that ONE verse about Mary having "other" children . . .

 

[Truther]

Now which part of that is "pagan", Einstein?

Praying to dead saints is pagan.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I went to the Catholic school for 6 years..... and we had mass ,,,, mon - fri.
And of course Sunday !
The priest did mass of course in Latin " who knows Latin "
So what were we learning ?

Oh ! and we blessed our self with holy water....
How does a priest make it holy ?

I think we've pretty much established that you slept through your "Catholic" years and remained ignorant.
Then, you were seduced out of the Church by a "feel-good" message of easy-believism.

Sad and ALL-too familiar story . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Praying to dead saints is pagan.

Show me where the Bible teaches that those who are in the presence of Almighty God in Heaven are "dead".
Can you do that, Einstein?

 

[Truther]

I said:
Show me ONE verse that shows MARY had other children.
You failed. Try again . . .

James and Joses are shown to be the children of ANOTHER woman named "Mary" who was with Mary, Mother of Jesus near the foot of the cross (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25). The Scriptures refer to her as Mary's "Adelphe" (sister). HOWEVER, we know they aren't uterine sisters because they have the SAME name, which is against Jewish Tradition.

Also,like "Adelphe", "Adelphos" (brother) is used in the NT for brother, stepbrother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc. As a matter of fact, my Scripturally-challenged friend -
244 instances are cases where the word “Adelphos” and all of its variations are used in the NT – 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.
256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling.

Deal with that while you're searching for that ONE verse about Mary having "other" children . . .

I said:
Show me ONE verse that shows MARY had other children.
You failed. Try again . . .

James and Joses are shown to be the children of ANOTHER woman named "Mary" who was with Mary, Mother of Jesus near the foot of the cross (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25). The Scriptures refer to her as Mary's "Adelphe" (sister). HOWEVER, we know they aren't uterine sisters because they have the SAME name, which is against Jewish Tradition.

Also,like "Adelphe", "Adelphos" (brother) is used in the NT for brother, stepbrother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow countryman, fellow believer, etc. As a matter of fact, my Scripturally-challenged friend -
244 instances are cases where the word “Adelphos” and all of its variations are used in the NT – 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.
256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling.

Deal with that while you're searching for that ONE verse about Mary having "other" children . . .

And knew her not until she brought forth her but first born son; and he called his name Jesus.

....and knew her not until..

Yikes

 

[BreadOfLife]

Blind as a bat.

He did (though they were only His half-brothers and sisters)...see Mark 6:3-4

Mar 6:2, And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Mar 6:3, Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Mar 6:4, But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Once again:
Show ONE verse that says MARY had children other than Jesus and I will join YOUR cult today.

So far, you've FAILED . . .

 

[Truther]

And knew her not until she brought forth her but first born son; and he called his name Jesus.

....and knew her not until..

Yikes

Naughty naughty, Mary and Joseph.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And knew her not until she brought forth her but first born son; and she called his name Jesus.
....and knew her not until..

Yikes

More linguistic ignorance . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? Ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

Finally, Mary’s question to the Angel is very telling about her intention to remain a virgin:

Luke 1:34: Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to “I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.

 

[Truther]

Show me where the Bible teaches that those who are in the presence of Almighty God in Heaven are "dead".
Can you do that, Einstein?

1 Thes 4.....”the dead in Christ shall rise first....”

 

[BreadOfLife]

Naughty naughty, Mary and Joseph.

Read post 1388, Einstein . . .

 

[Truther]

More linguistic ignorance . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? Ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

Finally, Mary’s question to the Angel is very telling about her intention to remain a virgin:

Luke 1:34: Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to “I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.

Matt 1:25......he knew her not until....

The RCC’s worst nightmare verse.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Thes 4.....”the dead in Christ shall rise first....”

And this is referring to their BODIES.
This verse is about the BODILY resurrection. Their FLESH will become incorruptible.

STUDY your Bible, dude.
Your posts are an embarrassment . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matt 1:25......he knew her not until....

The RCC’s worst nightmare verse.

You didn't read the post, did you.
Try reading it - then get back to me - or simply admit that you can't respond to it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The specific word by Jesus is about vain repetitions...which I have to say is often conducted by Catholics praying the rosary or the Our Father.
Not to mention the rosary hyper-exalts Mary...something Jesus did not do. In fact, He called her "woman" in John chapter 2...which might be construed as a sign of disrespect.

And to say that Jesus - who is GOD - "disrespected" His mother is blasphemy.
Jesus, having live the PERFECT life, followed EVERY Commandment to the letter - including, "HONOR your Father and Mother."

In John's Gospel, Jesus ALWAYS refers to His Mother as "Woman". this is not only NOT disrespectful - He is giving her HONOR.
This correlates perfectly with Gen 3:15 in the prophecy about the "WOMAN" whose offspring (Jesus) will crush the serpent's head.

It ALSO fits perfectly with the prophecy about the "WOMAN" in Rev. 12:1 with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars who gives birth to the child (Jesus) who will lead all nations with an iron rod.

That is HIGH HONOR - not "disrespect" . . .

 

[Truther]

You didn't read the post, did you.
Try reading it - then get back to me - or simply admit that you can't respond to it.

Matt 1:25 says ....”....he knew her not until..”

Right, sometimes a fella has to wait until the right time.

Only a celibate priest would be puzzled by this statement in Matt.

 

[Truther]

And to say that Jesus - who is GOD - "disrespected" His mother is blasphemy.
Jesus, having live the PERFECT life, followed EVERY Commandment to the letter - including, "HONOR your Father and Mother."

In John's Gospel, Jesus ALWAYS refers to His Mother as "Woman". this is not only NOT disrespectful - He is giving her HONOR.
This correlates perfectly with Gen 3:15 in the prophecy about the "WOMAN" whose offspring (Jesus) will crush the serpent's head.

It ALSO fits perfectly with the prophecy about the "WOMAN" in Rev. 12:1 with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars who gives birth to the child (Jesus) who will lead all nations with an iron rod.

That is HIGH HONOR - not "disrespect" . . .

The woman in Rev 12 is Israel. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes.

Get it right.

 

[justbyfaith]

The elements of this prayer are found in every Catholic Mass everyday, around the world (Malachi 1:11)
Dear Jesus Christ of Nazareth,
Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
All: And also with you.
I call upon Your name for salvation.
Priest: Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.
All: Lord, have mercy.
Priest: Lord, show us your mercy and love.
All: And grant us your salvation.
Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.
All: Amen.
I believe that You are risen from the dead; and I confess You as Lord.
All: Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Please forgive me of all my sins, and fill me with Your Holy Spirit; for I repent of walking in the direction of sin in my life and I place my faith and trust in You alone. In Your Name, Amen.

Penitential Rite:

Priest: As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ's love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.
or Coming together as God's family, with confidence let us ask the Father's forgiveness, for he is full of gentleness and compassion.
or My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins.
[or similar words of introduction, followed by a period of silent reflection.]

Gloria:

[This ancient hymn of praise is used on all Sundays outside of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and major feasts, and in solemn local celebrations. It is preferably sung by the whole congregation, but may also be sung by the choir or recited by all. The priest may begin with a brief sung or spoken invitation for the people to praise God.]

All: Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

First Reading:

Lector: A reading from the Book (or Letter, or Acts) of ...
[Different readings are prescribed for each day.

Responsorial Psalm:

[The choir and/or cantor sing or recite the psalm; the people join in the repeated response.]

Second Reading:

[A second reading is prescribed for all Sundays and major feasts, but not for most weekdays or minor feasts.
The lector's introduction and conclusion and the people's response are the same as in the First Reading, above.]

[stand]
Alleluia or Gospel Acclamation:

Choir or Cantor: Alleluia! All repeat: Alleluia!
Choir or Cantor: [verse] All repeat: Alleluia!

Gospel:

Before the Gospel Proclamation:
Deacon (or Priest): The Lord be with you. All: And also with you.
Deacon (or Priest): A reading from the Holy Gospel according to... [Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John]
All: Glory to you, Lord!

After the Gospel Proclamation:
Deacon (or Priest): The Gospel of the Lord.
All: Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!

[sit]
Homily:

Profession of Faith:
NICENE CREED or APOSTLES' CREED:

LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST
COMMUNION RITE
CONCLUDING RITE

All the concepts in justbyfaith's prayer are incorporated into the liturgy (=public worship) The nutshell pattern, 1st the liturgy of the Word followed by the liturgy of the Eucharist, an affirmation of the Last Supper, was established in Luke 24:13-35, the Road to Emmaus, and developed over time to what we now call The Sacrifice of the Mass. If Catholicism is wrong, then so is justbyfaith.

You don't have to get saved over and over again every Sunday.

How much better to say it as a one-time prayer and then go live the life that Christ wants you to live; by faith and not by sight!

Then Jesus violated the 4th Commandment, you claim that Jesus sinned.

Jhn 2:4, Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Jesus also violated the sabbath (go figure, John 5:17-18).

What a warped view! Jesus never condemned repetition, He condemned VANITY, which proves you can't read Scripture!

I said it was vain repetition that he condemned; and that is what the scripture says and teaches. I have said that much of Catholic liturgy is vain repetition, as well as your "hail Mary's" and your "Our Fathers".

Use the "Our Father" as an outline for your prayer life. Repeating it over and over again in the same prayer session is indeed vain.

Matthew 27: 55 -- The Crucifixion

'Among them were Mary Magdalene and MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES AND JOSEPH, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.'

This 'Mary' is obviously the mother of the same James and Joseph mentioned in Matt 13:55.

Not necessarily, as @Truther pointed out.

This 'other Mary' certainly corresponds to the mother of James and Joseph, the companion of Mary Magdalene in Matt 27:55. However, she is presented as such a minor gospel character that she is apparently NOT the mother of Jesus.

God chose to diminish her glory in that verse for the sake of you Catholics.

(3) This is how Jesus is 'brothers' with James and Joseph (Jose).

Well, if this is the case, then the Holy Spirit inspired Bible, in English, should have identified them as "cousins" in line with Catholic doctrine at the time that the kjv was translated.

So, can 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' be Jesus' mother as well?

(A) Why is she never called the mother of Jesus in the cross/tomb accounts? (Wouldn't that be easier than constantly 'switching' between James and Jose?)

In order to diminish the Catholic's view of Mary as "the mother of God".

(C) Why isn't she simply called the wife of Joseph?

Because what is being illuminated by the Holy Spirit is who Mary is the mother of...and here in this passage the Holy Spirit wants to diminish the concept that Mary is the mother of Jesus; in order to diminish what He foreknew would come...the hyper-exaltation of Mary in the hearts of many people.

(D) Why is she always listed second (and in Luke, third) after Mary Magdalene?

To diminish her importance as you see the inspired word of God diminishing Mary's importance; perhaps you will discover that your Catholicism isn't so great.

(E) Why does Matthew refer to her as merely 'the other Mary' in 28:1?

Also, to diminish her importance in your eyes.

 

[justbyfaith]

(G) If John is calling his 'Mary the wife of Clopas' the virgin Mary's sister, how can the word 'adelphos' (or 'adelphe' in the feminine) be taken literally? Two sisters both named Mary?!

Indeed, John 19:25 says this:

Jhn 19:25, Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

We can determine that the comma between "his mother's sister" and "Mary the wife of Cleophas" indicates that these are two separate individuals. For the two to be the same person there would have to be semicolons between "his mother", "his mother's sister" and "Cleophas" and "and Mary Magdalene"

-- The three Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) are INTENTIONALLY neglecting to call her Jesus' mother in their cross/tomb accounts (as if she's not Jesus' mother anymore.)

Not that she isn't Jesus' mother any more; but to diminish the Catholic view that God saw coming of "Mary the mother of God".

-- The Synoptics are also INTENTIONALLY depicting her as a minor character, less important than Mary Magdalene. And, in the case of Matthew, she's reduced to merely 'the other Mary' in 28:1.

Also, to diminish Mary's importance; as this is the desire of the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps they're making a 'theological point' by calling her only 'the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' in their later, cross/tomb accounts.

Well, although quite flimsy to begin with, this possibility is totally shattered, when one considers that in Acts 1:14 she is again called 'the mother of Jesus.'

Not so flimsy; and certainly not shattered by Acts of the Apostles 1:14. The Holy Spirit has His reasons for calling her the mother of Jesus again in that verse; just as He had His reasons for diminishing her glory in other verses.

Since Acts is the companion volume to Luke (produced by the same author), it doesn't make much sense for Luke to call her 'Mary the mother of James' in 24:10, and then re-bestow the title 'mother of Jesus' in Acts 1:14 if he's trying to make such a 'theological point'.

The Holy Spirit was indeed attempting to make a theological point by all of this.

I answer this quite simply.

Your posts contain many, many words and are anything but simple.

(Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25). The Scriptures refer to her as Mary's "Adelphe" (sister).

What scripture does this?

Naughty naughty, Mary and Joseph.

Clearly, this is saying that they had sexual relations after Jesus was born.

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Yes, He will come and dwell among us according to the Book of Revelation and other scriptures.

She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

She was stating her intention to remain a virgin

I sincerely doubt it; for she was espoused to Joseph.

And to say that Jesus - who is GOD - "disrespected" His mother is blasphemy.

Not really...for the Bible also teaches that Jesus violated the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

Jesus may have indeed had reasons based in the love of God for disrespecting His mother...for example, so that people wouldn't go overboard hyper-exalting Mary. It has availed for those who have seen it and become Protestants.

Jesus, having live the PERFECT life, followed EVERY Commandment to the letter - including, "HONOR your Father and Mother."

Actually, Jesus violated the sabbath day (John 5:17-18).

 

[Illuminator]

Indeed, John 19:25 says this:

Jhn 19:25, Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

We can determine that the comma between "his mother's sister" and "Mary the wife of Cleophas" indicates that these are two separate individuals. For the two to be the same person there would have to be semicolons between "his mother", "his mother's sister" and "Cleophas" and "and Mary Magdalene"

Not that she isn't Jesus' mother any more; but to diminish the Catholic view that God saw coming of "Mary the mother of God".

Also, to diminish Mary's importance; as this is the desire of the Holy Ghost.

Not so flimsy; and certainly not shattered by Acts of the Apostles 1:14. The Holy Spirit has His reasons for calling her the mother of Jesus again in that verse; just as He had His reasons for diminishing her glory in other verses.

Mary does not, nor ever had, any "glory" of her own. You constantly make up this straw man fallacy.

The Holy Spirit was indeed attempting to make a theological point by all of this.

Your posts contain many, many words and are anything but simple.

What scripture does this?

Clearly, this is saying that they had sexual relations after Jesus was born.

Contrary to your own reformers.

Yes, He will come and dwell among us according to the Book of Revelation and other scriptures.

I sincerely doubt it; for she was espoused to Joseph.

Not really...for the Bible also teaches that Jesus violated the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not the other way around.

Jesus may have indeed had reasons based in the love of God for disrespecting His mother...for example, so that people wouldn't go overboard hyper-exalting Mary. It has availed for those who have seen it and become Protestants.

"go overboard hyper-exalting Mary" by calling her "blessed" as scripture says all generations shall? Or do you declare yourself not part of any biblical generation?

First, you need to go back to the beginning, and explain why you are in protest to Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. You have strayed far from your own roots, and preach theological faddism. Bottom line: you have invented your own private religion.

 

[justbyfaith]

Mary does not, nor ever had, any "glory" of her own. You constantly make up this straw man fallacy.

Where have I done this before?

(use the quote feature)

"go overboard hyper-exalting Mary" by calling her "blessed" as scripture says all generations shall?

No; but by exalting her to the position of co-redeemer as Catholic doctrine does today.

As Protestants we acknowledge that Mary said clearly that from henceforth all generations would call her blessed (for it is in the Bible; and as Protestants we are sola scriptura).