The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[mjrhealth]

I seem to recall that Jesus died too. Why do you pray to a dead man?

If Jesus is dead, than what is your faith in, yourself.

 

[Illuminator]

Dear Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I call upon Your name for salvation. I believe that You are risen from the dead; and I confess You as Lord. Please forgive me of all my sins, and fill me with Your Holy Spirit; for I repent of walking in the direction of sin in my life and I place my faith and trust in You alone. In Your Name, Amen.

The elements of this prayer are found in every Catholic Mass everyday, around the world (Malachi 1:11)
Dear Jesus Christ of Nazareth,
Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
All: And also with you.
I call upon Your name for salvation.
Priest: Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.
All: Lord, have mercy.
Priest: Lord, show us your mercy and love.
All: And grant us your salvation.
Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.
All: Amen.
I believe that You are risen from the dead; and I confess You as Lord.
All: Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Please forgive me of all my sins, and fill me with Your Holy Spirit; for I repent of walking in the direction of sin in my life and I place my faith and trust in You alone. In Your Name, Amen.

Penitential Rite:

Priest: As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ's love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.
or Coming together as God's family, with confidence let us ask the Father's forgiveness, for he is full of gentleness and compassion.
or My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins.
[or similar words of introduction, followed by a period of silent reflection.]

Gloria:

[This ancient hymn of praise is used on all Sundays outside of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and major feasts, and in solemn local celebrations. It is preferably sung by the whole congregation, but may also be sung by the choir or recited by all. The priest may begin with a brief sung or spoken invitation for the people to praise God.]

All: Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

First Reading:

Lector: A reading from the Book (or Letter, or Acts) of ...
[Different readings are prescribed for each day.

Responsorial Psalm:

[The choir and/or cantor sing or recite the psalm; the people join in the repeated response.]

Second Reading:

[A second reading is prescribed for all Sundays and major feasts, but not for most weekdays or minor feasts.
The lector's introduction and conclusion and the people's response are the same as in the First Reading, above.]

[stand]
Alleluia or Gospel Acclamation:

Choir or Cantor: Alleluia! All repeat: Alleluia!
Choir or Cantor: [verse] All repeat: Alleluia!

Gospel:

Before the Gospel Proclamation:
Deacon (or Priest): The Lord be with you. All: And also with you.
Deacon (or Priest): A reading from the Holy Gospel according to... [Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John]
All: Glory to you, Lord!

After the Gospel Proclamation:
Deacon (or Priest): The Gospel of the Lord.
All: Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!

[sit]
Homily:

Profession of Faith:
NICENE CREED or APOSTLES' CREED:

LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST
COMMUNION RITE
CONCLUDING RITE

All the concepts in justbyfaith's prayer are incorporated into the liturgy (=public worship) The nutshell pattern, 1st the liturgy of the Word followed by the liturgy of the Eucharist, an affirmation of the Last Supper, was established in Luke 24:13-35, the Road to Emmaus, and developed over time to what we now call The Sacrifice of the Mass. If Catholicism is wrong, then so is justbyfaith.

 

[Truther]

Clearly, you've never studied early Church history or what the early Church Fathers believed and taught.

Early church history is found in Acts and the Epistles.

The apostate history is found in extra Biblical literature.

 

[Truther]

How do you manage to get things so wrong? Did you have learning problems at school?

Here ya go.....


The Nicene Creed (Greek: Σύμβολον τῆς Νικαίας or, τῆς πίστεως, Latin: Symbolum Nicaenum) is a statement of belief widely used in Christian liturgy. It is called Nicene /ˈnaɪsiːn/ because it was originally adopted in the city of Nicaea (present day İznik, Turkey) by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.


This is where the RCC was founded.

 

[Truther]

I was never taught to prostrate myself before any Catholic statue.

....as his contemporaries all around him bow.

 

[Truther]

Where does the Bible say the Bible is the only word of God?

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Found in your Bible.

Extra Biblical "words of God" are non applicable.

 

[Truther]

Why let the truth ruin an excellent boldface lie?

Communist leader, Vladimir Lenin, used to say "The lie is sacred."

If Catholics don't pray to statues, why do the kneel before them with the rosary, chanting hail Mary's and our Fathers'?

 

[Candidus]

If Catholics don't pray to statues, why do the kneel before them with the rosary, chanting hail Mary's and our Fathers'?

Playing a game of semantics and trying to strain a gnat is not a defense for Idol Worship. This is a case of putting lipstick on a pig and saying that it isn't a pig!

 

[Grams]

If Catholics don't pray to statues, why do the kneel before them with the rosary, chanting hail Mary's and our Fathers'?

Gee,,,,,,,,, I did when I was catholic !!!!!!! for 50 some years.......

Sure am glad that is not me any more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

 

[Illuminator]

If Catholics don't pray to statues, why do the kneel before them with the rosary, chanting hail Mary's and our Fathers'?

Gee,,,,,,,,, I did when I was catholic !!!!!!! for 50 some years.......

Sure am glad that is not me any more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

If you prayed to statues for 50 years you weren't a Catholic but an idiot.

 

[Illuminator]

The specific word by Jesus is about vain repetitions...which I have to say is often conducted by Catholics praying the rosary or the Our Father.

Not to mention the rosary hyper-exalts Mary...something Jesus did not do. In fact, He called her "woman" in John chapter 2...which might be construed as a sign of disrespect.

Then Jesus violated the 4th Commandment, you claim that Jesus sinned. What a warped view! Jesus never condemned repetition, He condemned VANITY, which proves you can't read Scripture!

 

[Candidus]

What a warped view! Jesus never condemned repetition, He condemned VANITY, which proves you can't read Scripture!

In Matthew 6:7, Jesus didn't say "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:"?

 

[Grams]

If you prayed to statues for 50 years you weren't a Catholic but an idiot.

That is how the nuns made us think back in those days..... [ 1940's]

You did what you were told / or you would be soooooooooooo sorry.............!

And then as a adult, it did change, but they did make us feel we had to kneel in front of the statue
And we had the priest going in front of the statues ,,,, with the stations of the cross........ during lent.....

 

[Nancy]

If you prayed to statues for 50 years you weren't a Catholic but an idiot.

@Grams was no idiot! She did as she was taught from childhood, and did it believing it was correct because the CC said so. Not at all nice to have called her an "idiot".

 

[Illuminator]

Welcome aboard...

Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57] And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Now go and obey Acts 2:38

Now, while many Protestants regard Mary's perpetual virginity as a uniquely 'Catholic belief,' it should be noted that the Protestant reformers Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli ALL professed this belief as well (for documentation, see for example Mary, Mother of All Christians by Max Thurian, written while he was a Calvinist theologian).

Matthew 13:55 -- Jesus at Nazareth

-- carpenter's son

-- mother named Mary

-- brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas

-- sisters 'with us'

Matthew 27: 55 -- The Crucifixion

'Among them were Mary Magdalene and MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES AND JOSEPH, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.'

This 'Mary' is obviously the mother of the same James and Joseph mentioned in Matt 13:55.

Matthew 28: 1 -- The Resurrection

'After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and THE OTHER MARY came to see the tomb.'

This 'other Mary' certainly corresponds to the mother of James and Joseph, the companion of Mary Magdalene in Matt 27:55. However, she is presented as such a minor gospel character that she is apparently NOT the mother of Jesus.

It's interesting to note that whenever Matthew mentions the Virgin Mary, he always identifies her as 'Jesus' mother.' (See: Matt 1:18, 2:11, 2:13, 2:14, 2:20, and 2:21, in which the author all but beats us over the head with the phrase 'His mother.') It's unlikely, therefore, that Matthew is abandoning this point by later identifying her as merely the mother of James and Joseph: a secondary character, less important than Mary Magdalene. Taking all this into consideration, Mary the mother of James and Joseph and Jesus' mother are apparently two different women. But first, let's turn to Mark.

Mark 6:3 -- Jesus at Nazareth (possibly the original source)

-- 'Is he not the carpenter?' (Jesus had taken over the family business)

-- 'The son of Mary' (Very unusual in a Jewish context, in which a son is the son of the father, not the mother)

-- brothers James, JOSE, Judas, and Simon

The same list as in Matt 13:55, with the exception of 'Jose' in place of Matthew's Joseph -- really the same name in Hebrew (Yoshef).

-- 'sisters are here with us'

Both in Matthew's account, and more clearly here in Mark's, this phrase seems to suggest that these particular 'brothers' of Jesus lived elsewhere. (Could they have been traveling with Jesus as His followers?)

Mark 15:40 -- The Crucifixion

'Among them were Mary Magdalene, MARY THE MOTHER OF THE YOUNGER JAMES AND OF JOSE, and Salome.'

Here, Matthew's 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph' reappears as 'the mother of ...James and of Jose,' corresponding to Mark's reference to Jesus' 'brothers' James and Jose at Nazareth in 6:3. If one compares Matthew and Mark's accounts of Jesus at Nazareth with that of their accounts of the crucifixion, it becomes abundantly clear that they are speaking about the same two relatives of Jesus, whose mother -- like Jesus' -- happened to be named Mary:

NAZARETH CRUCIFIXION

Matthew: James and Joseph James and Joseph

Mark: James and Jose James and Jose

And so, Mark continues...

Mark 15:47 -- Jesus' burial

'Mary Magdalene and MARY THE MOTHER OF JOSE watched where He was laid.'

Jose corresponds to the one mentioned in Mark 6:3 and 15:40.

Mark 16:1 -- The Resurrection

'When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES, and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint Him.'

The same three companions appear again. Here, Mary is called 'the mother of James' (a variant of 'the mother of Jose' in 15:47). However, there is still no mention, or even a vague implication, that this woman is also the mother of Jesus; but merely a background character like Salome.

Luke 24:10 -- The Resurrection

'The women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES; the others who accompanied them also ...'

Again, the 'mother of James,' but not the mother of Jesus. And, like Matthew and Mark (in 3:35), the author of Luke always refers to the Virgin Mary as Jesus' mother (See: Luke 1:43, 2:33-34, 2:51, 8:19, Acts 1:14).

'Others' (aka, Salome and Suzanna, etc.)

John 19:25 -- The Crucifixion

'Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother and HIS MOTHER'S SISTER, MARY THE WIFE OF CLOPAS, and Mary Magdala.'

This mysterious 'Mary' appears again; this time called 'Mary the wife of Clopas.' If this passage is speaking about three women, rather than four (as it almost certainly is), the comma after 'his mother's sister' may be identifying Clopas' wife as the sister (or 'tribal-relative') of Jesus' mother. This would explain the gospel writers' use of the Greek word 'adelphos' (as a translation of the Hebrew 'ah'), which could mean brother (or sister in the feminine), as well as cousin, nephew, relative, etc. If Clopas' wife was the sister (i.e., close, tribal relative) of Jesus' mother, then Clopas' sons, James and Joseph (Jose), could very well be called Jesus' 'brethren' (i.e., part of His extended tribal family).

This seems to fit, since neither James and Joseph/Jose (nor any of the 'brothers') are EVER called the sons of Joseph.

It is also quite possible that, as John's gospel so often does, this reference to Mary as 'wife of Clopas' is a conscious intention to clear up any questions about the 'mother of James and Joseph (Jose)' in the Synoptics -- that is, to clearly distinguish her from Jesus' mother.

CONCLUSION

So, with all this evidence in mind, I hold that:

(1) John's 'Mary the wife of Clopas ' is the same person as the Synoptics' 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' (the Mary of the cross/tomb accounts).

(2) This Mary is in turn the 'sister' (i.e., close tribal relative) of Jesus' mother Mary.

(3) This is how Jesus is 'brothers' with James and Joseph (Jose).

(4) His other 'brothers' (Judas and Simon), as well as his 'sisters,' and the 'brothers' who don't believe in Him in John 7:5 are from other branches of His extended tribal family.
continued...

 

[Illuminator]

But, let's play devil's advocate.

If James, Joseph (Jose), Simon, and Judas ARE INDEED Jesus' fraternal brothers, then the Synoptics' Mary of the cross/tomb (i.e., the mother of James and Joseph/Jose) MUST be Jesus' mother as well.

And, after all, there ARE certain seemingly-logical arguments to support this:

-- James and Joseph (Jose) ARE called Jesus' brothers.

-- And, their mother IS named Mary (the same as Jesus')

-- And, one must admit, it's also possible that the comma between 'His mother's sister' and 'Mary the wife of Clopas' in John 19:25 may be distinguishing two different women instead of identifying Clopas' wife as the Virgin Mary's sister.

So, therefore, Mary the wife of Clopas may NOT be a relative at all NOR is she necessarily the same woman as 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' in the Synoptics.

So, can 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' be Jesus' mother as well?

Well, if this is the case, then

(A) Why is she never called the mother of Jesus in the cross/tomb accounts? (Wouldn't that be easier than constantly 'switching' between James and Jose?)

(B) Why is she never called the mother of the other brothers, Simon and Judas?

(C) Why isn't she simply called the wife of Joseph?

(D) Why is she always listed second (and in Luke, third) after Mary Magdalene?

(E) Why does Matthew refer to her as merely 'the other Mary' in 28:1?

(F) Why does John cite a second Mary at the cross: Mary the wife of Clopas? (A character who doesn't appear in the Synoptics, unless she's the mother of James and Joseph.)

(G) If John is calling his 'Mary the wife of Clopas' the virgin Mary's sister, how can the word 'adelphos' (or 'adelphe' in the feminine) be taken literally? Two sisters both named Mary?!

It therefore must be admitted that, if 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' and Jesus' mother are one and the same, then

-- The three Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) are INTENTIONALLY neglecting to call her Jesus' mother in their cross/tomb accounts (as if she's not Jesus' mother anymore.)

-- The Synoptics are also INTENTIONALLY depicting her as a minor character, less important than Mary Magdalene. And, in the case of Matthew, she's reduced to merely 'the other Mary' in 28:1.

Still playing devil's advocate, I can imagine only one reason why the Synoptics would 'demote' Jesus' mother like this; since ALL THREE refer to her as 'his mother' earlier in their Gospels. Perhaps, as some have argued, the Synoptics are UNDERLINING their accounts in Matt 12:46, Mark 3:35, and Luke 8:19-21, in which Jesus refuses to go out to meet His mother and brothers, but tells His disciples, 'Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.' Perhaps they're making a 'theological point' by calling her only 'the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' in their later, cross/tomb accounts.

Well, although quite flimsy to begin with, this possibility is totally shattered, when one considers that in Acts 1:14 she is again called 'the mother of Jesus.' Since Acts is the companion volume to Luke (produced by the same author), it doesn't make much sense for Luke to call her 'Mary the mother of James' in 24:10, and then re-bestow the title 'mother of Jesus' in Acts 1:14 if he's trying to make such a 'theological point'.

Therefore, my whole 'devil's advocate' position is undone, and it is proved conclusively that the Synoptics' 'Mary the mother of James and Joseph/Jose' is NOT Jesus' mother.

And, since this Mary is certainly the mother of the same James and Joseph/Jose who are also called Jesus' 'brothers,' then it's equally proven that they COULD NOT have been the Lord's brothers in a fraternal sense.

So, who are these 'brothers' of Jesus? I hold that the term 'brothers' refers to His entire tribal group: the boys He grew up with, and with whom He was somehow related.

But if these men were 'cousins' or 'blood relatives,' some argue, why not simply use the word 'kinsman' or 'relative' as found in Luke 1:36? e.g. in which Elizabeth is described as Mary's 'relative.'

I answer this quite simply. First of all, I claim that His 'brothers' and 'sisters' were members of His extended family WITH WHOM JESUS WAS RAISED. Elizabeth's son, John the Baptist, on the other hand, would not have been referred to in this sense, because Jesus was not raised with him, although they were of the same blood.

Also, I argue that the term 'brother' is used in the Gospels because these particular men were known BY THIS TITLE in the early Church. I give you: 1 Corinthians 9:4-5, in which Paul is defending his right to be called an apostle:

'Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, AND THE BROTHERS OF THE LORD, and Kephas (i.e., Peter)?'

Since Paul is writing to Corinthians: citizens of a city in far off Greece, it is obvious that the distinguishing TITLE of 'brother' was well known to the universal Church, a Church which also knew very well what the title meant.

Conversely, if we take the term 'adelphos' literally, that would mean that Joseph and Mary had a total of five sons and at least two daughters. This would make a total of seven children: in essence, a 'Biblical Brady Bunch.' :) Now considering that Joseph's profession was that of a carpenter; and not that of a shepherd or farmer, in which large families are encouraged to work the land or tend the flocks, it seems rather ridiculous that he could have supported a family of this size, living in a small, most likely mud brick house in a little place like Nazareth.

Also, even assuming (as the early Church writers Clement and Origen did) that Jesus' 'brothers' were the children of Joseph by a wife previous to Mary, Mark 6:3 clearly refers to Jesus as 'the carpenter.' Since the family profession was passed on from father to son, how many carpenters could a little town like Nazareth support? Certainly not five!

However, if the term 'brothers' refers instead to Jesus' extended tribal-family group (as I believe I've shown it does), we are left with the image of five young boys (among others) playing in the streets of Nazareth:

JESUS: the son of Joseph and Mary

JAMES: and his sibling JOSEPH (or Jose): the sons of Clopas and Mary.

JUDAS

SIMON

These were the Lord's childhood friends, with whom He grew to manhood; and given the scope of first century village life, with whom He was almost certainly related.

 

[Truther]

Did Mary have any children other than Jesus? If so, how can she be the eternal virgin?



Mary had four other sons, Joseph, James, Jude, and Simon. Because of the virgin birth, Joseph was not the father of Jesus so these were the half brothers of Jesus. The last three mentioned are not to be confused with those who were disciples of Jesus by the same name. Here are some passages where the other sons of Mary by Joseph are mentioned (Matt. 12:46; 13:55; Mark 6:3; John 2:12; 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5; Gal. 1:19).


Did Mary have any children other than Jesus? If so, how can she be the eternal virgin? | Bible.org

 

[Illuminator]

@Grams was no idiot! She did as she was taught from childhood, and did it believing it was correct because the CC said so. Not at all nice to have called her an "idiot".

Grams uses her past so called Catholicism (from the '40's) to give legitimacy to her objections, and is not being fair. If she didn't fall in love with the Church (which is Jesus on earth), then she was a Catholic by inertia, and not by practice. Big difference. Bottom line: Grams hates a straw man, as do all ex-Catholics who turn anti-Catholic. But notice that converts TO Catholicism don't bad mouth their former church the way Grams bad mouths her former so-called Catholicism. That's because converts to Catholicism don't change their former Christian beliefs, they are EMBELLISHED, not supplanted. Whenever this is pointed out to former ex-Catholics turned anti-Catholics, IT FALLS ON DEAF EARS.

It's not about doctrines, it's about EMOTION. If Grams issue was doctrinal, then she is at a loss to explain why so may Protestant ministers and scholars have become Catholic. No, she rails against days long past, before Vatican II, which was half a century ago, and never fell in love. Her recollection of Catholicism is rigid and sterile, and she is not being fair.

 

[Grams]

I went to the Catholic school for 6 years..... and we had mass ,,,, mon - fri.
And of course Sunday !
The priest did mass of course in Latin " who knows Latin "
So what were we learning ?

Oh ! and we blessed our self with holy water....
How does a priest make it holy ?

 

[BreadOfLife]

"he was speaking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans "

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

Whew!

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

"Hail Mary!, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen."

Mr. priest in the black box, how many more?....

Now which part of that is "pagan", Einstein?