"The kingdom of heaven was not for all men."
But yet Jesus said "it is my Father's will that all men be saved."
That's some messed up stuff you're teaching Tong!
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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"The kingdom of heaven was not for all men."
But yet Jesus said "it is my Father's will that all men be saved."
That's some messed up stuff you're teaching Tong!
Yes there is I believe, faith that comes from the person and faith that comes from God. The former, all man have, but not the latter. The former having the power of the man and the latter having the power of God.
Tong
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Have you read the parable of the wheat and the tares? What did you learn from that? Can you share it to me?
<<<But yet Jesus said "it is my Father's will that all men be saved.">>>
I don’t see how that messes up things for you. It does not to me.
Tong
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And what is that suppose to mean? Where is that coming from? What is the relevance of that to our conversation?
Tong
R2831
Jn 12 32 continued !
Jesus stated in this verse :
Jn 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Christ Lifting up promises to draw all to Him, and He is in Glory, So Christ death and resurrection ensures that all He died for, come to Him in Glory Jn 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
There coming to Glory with Him is part of the bigger picture of His Glory He is rewarded with after His sufferings and death..
Lk 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Heb 12:2253
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It was Joy before Him, because through His death and resurrection He brings many Sons to Glory..
Heb 2:10
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
This is the end and result of His Being Lifted up Jn 12:32
Jesus stated in this verse :
Jn 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Christ Lifting up promises to draw all to Him, and He is in Glory, So Christ death and resurrection ensures that all He died for, come to Him in Glory Jn 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
There coming to Glory with Him is part of the bigger picture of His Glory He is rewarded with after His sufferings and death..
Lk 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Heb 12:2253
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It was Joy before Him, because through His death and resurrection He brings many Sons to Glory..
Heb 2:10
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
This is the end and result of His Being Lifted up Jn 12:32
Yes thats exactly what I mean. There was no other reason/regard for His Death ! Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
<<<There was no other reason/regard for His Death !>>>
I already posted under this thread there were other things accomplished by the death of Christ.
Tong
R2833
marks said: ↑
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus bore away in His body the sin of the world.
So yes, without exception.
It's the Bible which says, THe Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world. It's the Bible which says God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them.
So I'm simply accepting these things as true.
His people? Yes, He shall save His people, all who receive Him, remember, your sins being sent away isn't enough, dead men don't live in heaven, you must be born again. Removing the impediment of your guilty sin allows you to be received by God in Christ, to be reborn, to be His child.
Much love!
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus bore away in His body the sin of the world.
So yes, without exception.
It's the Bible which says, THe Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world. It's the Bible which says God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them.
So I'm simply accepting these things as true.
His people? Yes, He shall save His people, all who receive Him, remember, your sins being sent away isn't enough, dead men don't live in heaven, you must be born again. Removing the impediment of your guilty sin allows you to be received by God in Christ, to be reborn, to be His child.
Much love!
If you did not mean the word "all" to mean "each and every," please explain.
Yes Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
What is the sin of the world?
Tong
R2836
Just that, the sin of world.
God was in Chrsit reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing . . .
Much love!
If only those who currently believe are Christ's sheep, and Jesus only died for His sheep, then Jesus did not die for those who currently don't believe.
Therefore those who currently don't believe are not of the elect; and they cannot be saved because Jesus didn't die for them.
And therefore, the only people who can be saved are those who already believe.
So much for evangelism.
And also, Jesus' statement that "The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost," (Luke 19:10) is rendered null and void by this Calvinistic doctrine.
Just the same posting.
Jesus died for His sheep for the forgiveness of their sins for salvation unto eternal life. That includes His sheep that had then and now been found and also for the lost sheep that has yet to be found.
Tong
R2837
So, those who do not currently believe are of His sheep?
That is not what the Bible teaches.
If Jesus didn't die for those who are not sheep, then He didn't die for those who currently do not believe. Therefore, they cannot be saved, because Jesus didn't die for them.
Now, if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, as we find in 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 and John 1:29; then those who are not His sheep (who currently do not believe) can be saved; for their propitiation has been provided for.
But if Jesus died only for His sheep, it should be clear that scripture, in John 10:26, tells us that those who do not currently believe are not Jesus' sheep. Therefore, He didn't die for those who do not currently believe according to this Calvinistic theology; and they cannot be saved, even if they tried to come to Christ and be saved.
Therefore those who come to Christ, He will most assuredly cast out; contrary to John 6:37; and another verse that is also cast out is Luke 19:10.
Be careful lest in your theology you are found to be removing verses from the Bible: it does not bode well with you according to scripture if you do (see Revelation 22:18-19).
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
Yeah, they forgot the women and children!
Yeah, they forgot the women and children!
<<<So, those who do not currently believe are of His sheep?>>>
Some of them may well be His lost sheep. We may see them not believing just yet, but there is an appointed time that will they will hear Jesus and believe.
<<<If Jesus didn't die for those who are not sheep, then He didn't die for those who currently do not believe. Therefore, they cannot be saved, because Jesus didn't die for them.>>>
Not that one does not believe now does not mean he will not believe later. Remember, Jesus died for His sheep even while they are still lost.
Jesus came for His lost sheep to find and them and save them from their captors and bring them all home to the Father. Some of His sheep are from the Jewish nation and some are from the Gentile nations.
Jesus knows His sheep. We do not know who are the lost sheep. But if one is a lost sheep of Jesus, when he hears His voice, he will recognize His voice and will hear him and will follow Him. Those who are not His sheep would not.
He explicitly and unequivocally said of those Jews He was having a conversation with in John 10, that they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep. As also He told those in John 8 that they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not of God.
You think too much perhaps. Read and hear what Jesus is saying in John 10 regarding His sheep.
<<<Therefore those who come to Christ, He will most assuredly cast out; contrary to John 6:37; >>>
In John 6:37, coming to Christ means believing in Him.
Tong
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Those who do not currently believe are clearly not His sheep according to John 10:26.
However, those who do not currently believe are not His sheep. So, His sheep are only those who believe. How then can any of His sheep be lost at any time in their lives? They would be born (the first time), born again.
Now, if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (which is what the Bible teaches, in 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6), then those who currently believe will become His sheep the moment they believe, if they will believe.
But don't give me any of this nonsense about those who currently don't believe currently being His sheep. That is not what the Bible teaches (see John 10:26).
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