The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<So, those who do not currently believe are of His sheep?>>>

Some of them may well be His lost sheep. We may see them not believing just yet, but there is an appointed time that will they will hear Jesus and believe.

Those who do not currently believe are clearly not His sheep according to John 10:26.

Then I would have to say you read that verse again, and continue on to v.27, where Jesus said, that He knows His sheep. That means, it is not those who do not currently believe, but that, Jesus knew they were not of His sheep, and that is why they don’t believe. But we are not like Jesus who knows who the sheep are. So, we don’t get to say that a person is His sheep nor not. What we know is what Jesus said of those who are not of His sheep.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<If Jesus didn't die for those who are not sheep, then He didn't die for those who currently do not believe. Therefore, they cannot be saved, because Jesus didn't die for them.>>>

Not that one does not believe now does not mean he will not believe later. Remember, Jesus died for His sheep even while they are still lost.

However, those who do not currently believe are not His sheep. So, His sheep are only those who believe. How then can any of His sheep be lost at any time in their lives? They would be born (the first time), born again.

Now, if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (which is what the Bible teaches, in 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6), then those who currently believe will become His sheep the moment they believe, if they will believe.

But don't give me any of this nonsense about those who currently don't believe currently being His sheep. That is not what the Bible teaches (see John 10:26).

<<<How then can any of His sheep be lost at any time in their lives?>>>

They are lost in the sense that they are out in the world. They ought to be with the Good Shepherd, and at home with Him.

<<<But don't give me any of this nonsense about those who currently don't believe currently being His sheep. That is not what the Bible teaches (see John 10:26)>>>

It may be nonsense to you. Even the wise Greeks in the time of Paul consider the gospel that Paul preached to them as foolishness, nonsense.

I suggest you read that again and keep in mind who is talking there, who is not a mere man, but is the Lord, who in v.27 says He knows His sheep. And understand, it is not because that they don’t believe that they were not of His sheep, rather that because they were not of His sheep is why they don’t believe. Hope you will get that the next time you read that passage in John 10.

Tong
R2843

 

[brightfame52]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We know that Christ did not die for all men without exception, because by His death [stripes] He heals all those He bare their sins, in order that they should live unto righteousness..

As stated another way by Paul in Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience [stripes] of one[Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

If one does not live unto God and righteousness, then Christ did not die for them.

 

[fellow]

I don't believe in limited atonement, the scripture makes it clear that the call is for "whosoever will."

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The Purpose of the Parables
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[fellow]

Then I would have to say you read that verse again, and continue on to v.27, where Jesus said, that He knows His sheep. That means, it is not those who do not currently believe, but that, Jesus knew they were not of His sheep, and that is why they don’t believe. But we are not like Jesus who knows who the sheep are. So, we don’t get to say that a person is His sheep nor not. What we know is what Jesus said of those who are not of His sheep.



<<<How then can any of His sheep be lost at any time in their lives?>>>

They are lost in the sense that they are out in the world. They ought to be with the Good Shepherd, and at home with Him.

<<<But don't give me any of this nonsense about those who currently don't believe currently being His sheep. That is not what the Bible teaches (see John 10:26)>>>

It may be nonsense to you. Even the wise Greeks in the time of Paul consider the gospel that Paul preached to them as foolishness, nonsense.

I suggest you read that again and keep in mind who is talking there, who is not a mere man, but is the Lord, who in v.27 says He knows His sheep. And understand, it is not because that they don’t believe that they were not of His sheep, rather that because they were not of His sheep is why they don’t believe. Hope you will get that the next time you read that passage in John 10.

Tong
R2843

The children of Israel are the sheep.

Gentiles come later.

 

[Charlie24]

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The Purpose of the Parables
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

The parables separated those who hunger and thirst for righteousness from those who don't.

Those who didn't hear and understand, didn't want to hear and understand, they were just curious.

vs. 15 tells us why they didn't hear and understand.

"for this peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed..."

It was their own doings, God would have healed them of their hard hearts but they would have none of it!

 

[Amazed@grace]

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus bore away in His body the sin of the world.

So yes, without exception.

Much love!

Notice? That says the sins of the whole world. It doesn't say saved everyone in the world.
World = John 1 MOUNCE;KJV;NIV - In the beginning was the Word, and the - Bible Gateway
κόσμος (kosmos)
Strong: G2889
GK: G3180 (1) pr. order, regular disposition; ornament, decoration, embellishment, 1 Pet. 3:3; (2) the world, the material universe, Mt. 13:35; the world, the aggregate of sensitive existence, 1 Cor. 4:9; the lower world, the earth, Mk. 16:15; the world, the aggregate of mankind, Mt. 5:14; the world, the public, Jn. 7:4; in NT the present order of things, the secular world, Jn. 18:36; the human race external to the Jewish nation, the heathen world, Rom. 11:12, 15; the world external to the Christian body, 1 Jn. 3:1, 13; the world or material system of the Mosaic covenant, Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:8, 20

If Jesus died to save everyone, would there be a book of life created before the foundation of the world? That contains the names of the saved.

 

[JunChosen]

I don't understand what you are saying...how am I supposed to explain?

In Scripture, the word "all" does NOT necessarily mean "each and every." Sometimes it can have a double meaning. For example, 1 Co. 15:22 reads: "For as in Adam "ALL" die, even so in Christ shall "ALL" be made alive."

If the first "all" means each and every, the next "all" cannot mean the same because we know Scripture teach that hell will heavily be populated.

So, those who do not currently believe are of His sheep?

That is not what the Bible teaches.

For a surety, the Bible teaches this! You see, those whom the Father predestined/elected to salvation will come to Jesus and become saved BECAUSE the Father willed it so [Ephesians 1:4-6], [Isaiah 55:11].

All believers are saved at different times in history from the foundation of the world!

​

Now, if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, as we find in 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 and John 1:29; then those who are not His sheep (who currently do not believe) can be saved; for their propitiation has been provided for.

Time and again I've maintained that people do not know how to read Scripture especially when it concerns salvation. The passages you quoted above merely states that in all the world there is no other Savior but Jesus! Jesus DID NOT die for the sins of the world as proven in Matt. 1:21

Therefore those who come to Christ, He will most assuredly cast out; contrary to John 6:37; and another verse that is also cast out is Luke 19:10.

That's correct seeing that no one, no, not one will seek after Jesus Romans 3:10-11, except His "sheep."

Be careful lest in your theology you are found to be removing verses from the Bible: it does not bode well with you according to scripture if you do (see Revelation 22:18-19).

Revelation has a double meaning/principle. If anyone adds to the words of the prophecy of this book [Bible] God shall add unto him the plagues written herein [spiritual death], and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book...[1st principle].

Revelation 22:18-19 is declaring that God and GOD alone have the power to bring into fruition the things written herein! IOW, God is saying that He is the God of the Bible and is sovereign in all things... [2nd principle].

Learn how to read and exegete Scripture!

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

If Jesus died to save everyone, would there be a book of life created before the foundation of the world? That contains the names of the saved.

Exodus 32:33 KJV
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

That this one sinned, and is blotted out, their name was written in God's book.

Revelation refers to those's whose names do not remain written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. This tells me that God writes the names of the living in the book of the living, but blots out those who's sins are imputed to them.

Much love!

 

[JunChosen]

The children of Israel are the sheep.

You mean the [Israel of God] in Galatians 6:16 are the sheep and NOT the Nation of Israel, right?

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Notice? That says the sins of the whole world. It doesn't say saved everyone in the world.

I agree. However, Jesus only redeemed the sins of His people [sheep] Matthew 1:21.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Amazed@grace]

I agree. However, Jesus only redeemed the sins of His people [sheep] Matthew 1:21.

To God Be The Glory

True. Maybe instead of it being that he took away the sins of the whole world, like what I earlier posted, maybe it is meant to be understood as, he took upon himself the sins of the world, as in the worldly sins. (Of his sheep) ?

 

[Amazed@grace]

Exodus 32:33 KJV
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

That this one sinned, and is blotted out, their name was written in God's book.

Revelation refers to those's whose names do not remain written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. This tells me that God writes the names of the living in the book of the living, but blots out those who's sins are imputed to them.

Much love!

Which book though? It doesn't refer you the book of life. It refers to his book.
Remember in Revelation there are more than one book at the judgement seat.

For me, it can't be the book of life. Because it would call into question God's omniscience.
He put those names in the book of life before the world was created. Which means beforevdin entered into it through Adam.

Also, by blotting out a name, were this the book of life, I think it would then in the OT be refuting those NT verses that tell us we can never lose our salvation.

I've a time or two happened on opinions that the book of life, or living, is a book that contains the names of all people who shall ever live.

I think if we take that as true then your verse in Exodus 32:33 would mean, God is telling us if we, all those named living people, were to ever sin, he'll kill us. I.E Taking that name of that sinner out of the book that contains the names of all living people on earth.

 

[JunChosen]

I've a time or two happened on opinions that the book of life, or living, is a book that contains the names of all people who shall ever live.

I think if we take that as true then your verse in Exodus 32:33 would mean, God is telling us if we, all those named living people, were to ever sin, he'll kill us. I.E Taking that name of that sinner out of the book that contains the names of all living people on earth.

In the creation vantage point, yes all the names of those that will ever live are written in the Book of the Living/life [Psalms 69:28], and those whose sins will NOT be forgiven them their names will be blotted out from the Book of the Living/life!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Amazed@grace]

In the creation vantage point, yes all the names of those that will ever live are written in the Book of the Living/life [Psalms 69:28], and those whose sins will NOT be forgiven them their names will be blotted out from the Book of the Living/life!

To God Be The Glory

Psalm 69 is David's song, psalm, imploring God to act.
It isn't telling us God does that.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 69 - New International Version

 

[JunChosen]

Psalm 69 is David's song, psalm, imploring God to act.
It isn't telling us God does that.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 69 - New International Version

I believe only in the Bible and never people's work no matter how faithful and holy their work might seem, or have a label before or after their names.

Consider the Scripture verses below. Tell me, are they David's song or psalm or the word of God?

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Revelation 17:8

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15.

All three verses above are saying the same things as with Psalms 69:28 don't you agree? To your estimation, are the passages above David's song or psalm?

To God Be The Glory

 

[justbyfaith]

It may be nonsense to you. Even the wise Greeks in the time of Paul consider the gospel that Paul preached to them as foolishness, nonsense.

Except that Calvinism is not the gospel that Paul preached; it is the gospel that Calvin preached; some 1600 years after Paul.

In Scripture, the word "all" does NOT necessarily mean "each and every." Sometimes it can have a double meaning. For example, 1 Co. 15:22 reads: "For as in Adam "ALL" die, even so in Christ shall "ALL" be made alive."

If the first "all" means each and every, the next "all" cannot mean the same because we know Scripture teach that hell will heavily be populated.

Since all in Adam die, that is speaking of all who are in Adam. Those who are in Christ are not in Adam. All in Christ are made alive. You think this means with exception? I see it as validly saying that these things are true without exception.

Jesus DID NOT die for the sins of the world as proven in Matt. 1:21

Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world as is plainly stated in 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, and John 1:29.

 

[brightfame52]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

Jn 12 :32

32 And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In this scripture when Christ says He will draw all to Himself after having been lifted up [His death on the cross], He is speaking about the beginning of His Millennial Reign from His Throne of Glory..

After His suffering and dying, He must enter into His Glory Lk 24:26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Jesus entered into His Mediatorial Glory, His Throne of Glory after having paid the redeeming price for the sins of all of God's elect.

On this Throne of Glory He mediates His saving benefits to all who are to partake of His Kingdom Isa 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is Jesus building His Church, while ruling on the Throne of David, to order it and establish it..

Thats why peter says that He added to the church [or His Kingdom] Acts 2:47

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.257

Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Believers reign with Him as they are instruments in His hand to preach the gospel to draw in the other members of His Church or Kingdom, particularly was this True of the Apostles and Paul..

 

[brightfame52]

Thats why Isaiah says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In the Hand of the resurrected Christ, the Pleasure of the LORD [ His Father ] shall prosper, be of good success.

That means the Fathers desires shall prosper in His Hand. The word pleasure is the hebrew word:

chephets and means:

delight, pleasure
a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight

That means, the Fathers desire for all men to be saved as in 1 Tim 2:3-4

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The word will here is the greek word
thelō and means:

to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Now notice the similarities in this definition and the one for pleasure in Isa 53:10 !

This Tells me that Christ should prosper in accomplishing the Fathers will in ensuring that the all men the Father desires to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth.

So that's the obligation of the resurrected Christ to see to it that its done. And scripture says He shall prosper, which word means:

Its the hebrew word

tsalach :

Qal) to rush

2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable

a) (Qal) to prosper

b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper

2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper

In other words, none shall be lost as stated in Jn 6:38

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So, if any in 1 Tim 2:4 do not be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth as the Father desires, then Christ has failed His Fathers will and not prospered in the pleasure of the Lord as stated in Isa 53 10262

My conclusion is that Christ has prospered, and all who perish in their sins, it just was not Gods will for them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth.

So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth.

 

[Enoch111]

So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth.

Only in deluded minds. And no amount of misrepresented Scriptures will change that.

 

[brightfame52]

Only in deluded minds. And no amount of misrepresented Scriptures will change that.

We will see in the Day Of Christ !