The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

Zech 13:1

That Salvation Blessings Christ would wrought by His Blood was limited to a Specific People [The House of David] and not the entire world and everyone without exception, is seen here in Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Thats why the Book of Romans opens up with Rom 1:3

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2 Tim 2:8

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Salvation Mercies are the Sure Mercies of David ! Isa 55:3; Acts 13:34

This is because the Salvation Gospel Preached to both Jews and Gentiles belonged to the House of David Zech 13:1, but not Davids physical house, but a spiritual house ordered by the Everlasting Covenant 2 Sam 23:5.

Gentile Salvation was a by product of Salvation for the House of David Rom 15:8-13

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse [House of David], and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust [Salvation Eph 1:13].

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[brightfame52]

what is Israel?
Who are included?

Already answered, read the post !

 

[brightfame52]

Particular Redemption /Salvation !

That Christ's Salvation work is limited to a particular people, and not intended for all mankind without exception, we see that from yet another passage Lk 1:68-70,73

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Yes its promised to the Family of Abraham ! His People, The House of David.

And this has been the focus since the World began Lk 1:70

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

When God spake to the Serpent, Adam and Eve here Gen 3:15, that one who was to bruise the head of the serpent, by so doing, would be the Salvation of the Hose of David or Abraham, an Elect People, The Israel of God !

Look again at Vs 69, Who is it specifically declared to be for ? A Horn of Salvation to whose House ? Now is the House of David the Whole World without exception ? It could also be understood as unto the descendants of David, or the descendants of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Lk 1:72-73

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Yes, Christ is a Promised Mercy to those who have Abraham as their Father !470

 

[theefaith]

Already answered, read the post !

there is no old israel it is replaced by the church Matt 21:43 Christ replaced david
As king Lk 1:32-33
Christ replaced Moses as mediator also

 

[brightfame52]

Limited to the Saints !

1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

A Purpose of God for which Christ came into the World, His Incarnation, was not to save all humanity, but was a manifestation of God's Love, the Eternal Love He had for His Elect World [ Israel] and through His Death, they might Live through Him. Now take notice of whom the sacred writer refers to here, him using the pronoun us & we, which makes this Purpose restricted to the Saints of God.

The Saints of God are all those God chose in Christ for this Purpose Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These are the ones by His sacrifice He sanctified or set apart permanently Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God's will and Purpose gave a sanctification of His People [made them Holy] Permanently by the once and for all Offering of Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

there is no old israel it is replaced by the church Matt 21:43 Christ replaced david
As king Lk 1:32-33
Christ replaced Moses as mediator also

You havent said anything I didnt already know. So are you going to discuss the post ?

 

[theefaith]

Limited to the Saints !

1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

A Purpose of God for which Christ came into the World, His Incarnation, was not to save all humanity, but was a manifestation of God's Love, the Eternal Love He had for His Elect World [ Israel] and through His Death, they might Live through Him. Now take notice of whom the sacred writer refers to here, him using the pronoun us & we, which makes this Purpose restricted to the Saints of God.

The Saints of God are all those God chose in Christ for this Purpose Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These are the ones by His sacrifice He sanctified or set apart permanently Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God's will and Purpose gave a sanctification of His People [made them Holy] Permanently by the once and for all Offering of Christ !

none are excluded Jn 3:16 whosoever!

 

[brightfame52]

He bore the sin of many, not all without exception !

Isa 53:12

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Despite clear scripture Testimony of the exclusiveness of those Christ died for, the many as opposed to all humanity without exception, men will wrest this truth to their own destruction.

In addition to our opening text as to whom Christ bare the sin of, the many, lets look at Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now does that say " offered to bear the sins of all men without exception ?" No it does not, and its dishonesty and the handling the word deceitfully to claim that it does mean that.

Yes, there is a sense in which He bare the sins of all, as in all of the many. That word many is the greek word polys:

many, much, large

And what that denotes is that He bare the sin of a large number of individuals. That very large # is shown forth here Rev 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But this Great Multitude was exclusive and out of the whole, out of all nations. The word of as in out of is the greek prep ek which means:

out of, from, by, away from

Thats all of the many, a great multitude, which no man can number, but God can number them as sure as He can number the very hairs of their head Matt 10:30

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

And that word numbered, the greek word arithmeō derived from
arithmos which means:

a fixed and definite number [with God]

And this fixed and definite # makes up an multitude that no man can number, and it is appropriate at times to refer to them as all ! Not all without exception, but all as to denote their large number, all the large multitude !

2 Sam 6:19

And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

1 Kings 20:13

And, behold, there came a prophet unto Ahab king of Israel, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Hast thou seen all this great multitude? behold, I will deliver it into thine hand this day; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord.

Acts 15:12

Then all[pas] the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

So when in the context of saying who Christ gave Himself a ransom for or in behalf of, it can be said for all as here 1 Tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Or for the many Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Many denotes the exclusiveness of those He gave His Life a Ransom in behalf of, and all embraces the large number of the exclusiveness of the many, all the many, even multitudinous.

Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Again, the many, denoting exclusiveness of those His Blood was shed for !

Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Here is where my point is Illustrated. The first all, does mean all without exception and pas is used to define them, but the "as many as" which separates them from the all in general as in all flesh, the as many as is also defined by the word pas, as it defines only all that had been given to Christ !474

In other words its of all which thou has given Him !

But its quite evident that pas cannot mean the same in both places . So to say all always means all without exception, is handling the word of God deceitfully, especially in light of the fact that other scripture can give more clarification of the subject matter in order to understand the subject in agreement with the subject throughout scripture.

Christ's death, whose sins He died for is clearly define as the many, as exclusive from all in general ! To deny this is wresting scripture and handling it deceitfully !

 

[Wrangler]

Well a Baptist, Pentecostal, church ofChrist, ...sda, etc.all will say according to scripture too

I’ve been thinking a lot about this. If the Spirit of God tells you to go West and me to go East, it seems the one who is wrong is the one who says the word of God does not change.

 

[brightfame52]

Came to seek and to Save Abraham's Seed !

Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Christ came to seek and to save not all without exception, but all who are of the Chosen Seed of Abraham ! Ps 105:6477

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

This passage in Lk 19 surely indicates this. The man Zacchaeus, because he was blessed to be of that Chosen Seed, Salvation came to his house, as a result of the Seeking Son of man, Note: Those Christ came to save, He seeks them until He finds them, and confers His Salvation Upon them !

That Christ came to seek and to save only a Chosen People called Israel, He clearly states that here Matt 15:24

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What can be more plainer stated, that He was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel !

24 Jesus replied, “I’ve been sent only to the lost sheep, the people of Israel.”[CEB]


24 He said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el.”[CJB]


24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”[ERV]

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[ESV]

Now what does the word only mean ?

He was sent only once by the Father into the World, so He must be Talking about that sending here 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [ The Lost Sheep of Israel] might live through him.

With that in Mind, all other portions stating about Christ being sent for Saving Purposes Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World here must be the World of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, or we have a contradiction with Matt 15:24 ! You see, we must understand the more specific over the general. Yes Jn 3:17 speaks of a World to Save which does not preclude that World being the House of Israel !

 

[Taken]

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
OP ^

By the Word of God Himself...
NOT A MYTH.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give (Gave) is my flesh, which I will give (Gave) for the life of the world.

No man is Excluded.
He said He WOULD Give.
He came And DID GIVE;
HIS FLESH;
FOR the WHOLE WORLD, TO HAVE LIFE.

It's a gift. It's paid for.
It's allocated for every man.
It's every mans to TAKE.

The thing about A GIFT is...
it's OFFERED, NOT FORCED. No one can MAKE another TAKE a Gift that is expressly Bought and Paid for "FOR THEM."

If a man DOES NOT TAKE the gift bought, paid for, offered exclusively FOR THEM....whelp...then that man DOES NOT HAVE the gift expressly bought and paid for and offered to them.

IF there IS AN EXPIRITATION TIME for receiving their offered GIFT, and a man DOES NOT "TAKE" his offered GIFT...
BEFORE the EXPIRIATION TIME...
He has LOST HIS GIFT...BY FORFEIT.

There are routinely offers of men willing to give other men GIFTS, with caveats, to Take the gift by a certain date, or forfeit and lose the gift.

With Gods Offering...for a man to TAKE his Offered Gift...the Expiriation Time is Physical Death. Should a man NOT TAKE "HIS Allocated" Gift, Before his physical Death...He has lost his gift by forfeiture.

Physically DEAD men, know nothing. THEY DO NOT, CAN NOT, reach out their hand and Take the Gift that IS Theirs...
Because it is no longer Possible for them
TO TAKE.
THEY HAVE LOST their Gift.

A unwise man, will conclude he must "possess" "have taken" the gift, Before he could LOSE the Gift.

The Wisdom of God is...the man must freely Take HIS GIFT, while Physically Alive...and thereafter, CAN NEVER LOSE HIS GIFT.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Tong2020]

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
OP ^

By the Word of God Himself...
NOT A MYTH.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give (Gave) is my flesh, which I will give (Gave) for the life of the world.

No man is Excluded.
He said He WOULD Give.
He came And DID GIVE;
HIS FLESH;
FOR the WHOLE WORLD, TO HAVE LIFE.

It's a gift. It's paid for.
It's allocated for every man.
It's every mans to TAKE.

The thing about A GIFT is...
it's OFFERED, NOT FORCED. No one can MAKE another TAKE a Gift that is expressly Bought and Paid for "FOR THEM."

If a man DOES NOT TAKE the gift bought, paid for, offered exclusively FOR THEM....whelp...then that man DOES NOT HAVE the gift expressly bought and paid for and offered to them.

IF there IS AN EXPIRITATION TIME for receiving their offered GIFT, and a man DOES NOT "TAKE" his offered GIFT...
BEFORE the EXPIRIATION TIME...
He has LOST HIS GIFT...BY FORFEIT.

There are routinely offers of men willing to give other men GIFTS, with caveats, to Take the gift by a certain date, or forfeit and lose the gift.

With Gods Offering...for a man to TAKE his Offered Gift...the Expiriation Time is Physical Death. Should a man NOT TAKE "HIS Allocated" Gift, Before his physical Death...He has lost his gift by forfeiture.

Physically DEAD men, know nothing. THEY DO NOT, CAN NOT, reach out their hand and Take the Gift that IS Theirs...
Because it is no longer Possible for them
TO TAKE.
THEY HAVE LOST their Gift.

A unwise man, will conclude he must "possess" "have taken" the gift, Before he could LOSE the Gift.

The Wisdom of God is...the man must freely Take HIS GIFT, while Physically Alive...and thereafter, CAN NEVER LOSE HIS GIFT.

Glory to God,
Taken

Salvation is grace and by grace. It is not offered for the taking or acceptance, but was done and accomplished by God in Christ Jesus.

The question really is, ‘Who are they whom God saved’? Definitely, they are not all of man. We find the answer to this question in scriptures. The next question then is, ‘are we among those whom God saved’?

Tong
R3911

 

[BarneyFife]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Is this a myth?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

I don't believe that all are saved, but we've got to do something with this text, don't we?

 

[Taken]

Salvation is grace

No.

It is not offered for the taking or acceptance,

It? Salvation? Absolutely IS OFFERED.
And Absolutely MUST be Agreed by a man to be TAKEN.

The question really is, ‘Who are they whom God saved’? Definitely, they are not all of man. We find the answer to this question in scriptures. The next question then is, ‘are we among those whom God saved’?

Tong
R3911

The point was start at the beginning to learn Gods Order and Way.

Angels were created before mankind...and thereafter mankind...BOTH were given the WORD of God....BOTH had/have FREEWILL to hear, follow, agree to accept Gods Word...
OR NOT.

After Angels were created and Before mankind was create....Lucifer already rejected Gods Word...and that was called...
KILLING/ MURDERING Gods Word...called EVIL, WICKED, UNHOLY...and caused Lucifer to be Called the FIRST MURDERER, father of LIES, Deceit, Evil, Wickedness, Trickery....
And caused his name to be changed, (Satan) and he Cast DOWN, from his first Estate, (Heaven).
He became mans FIRST EXAMPLE of WHAT NOT TO FOLLOW, DO or mimic, less man end up like Satan, cast down from mans first estate (face of the Earth)...TO HELL.

Once mankind was created and made (very good)...Mankind had influence of BOTH...
Gods GOOD and TRUE WORD....
AND Satan EVIL and WICKED LIES...
And option, of freewill to CHOOSE to follow either.

BECAUSE of Gods GREAT LOVE for His Creations....
THEN Was revealed Gods GRACE...
His own Way, Power, Help, Guide, to Lead a "WILLING" man in Gods WAY, despite Satan's constant nudging, cunning trickery, tripping, deceit to divert a man from following Gods Way.

All of THAT, happened LONG before God revealed His WORD in the LIKENESS AS a man, God called His SON, and gave Him the Name JESUS.

SALVATION for early man WAS OFFERED, by a WAY God provided...
Follow the Laws, Worship God, and at the end of their Earthly Natural Physical Life....they would be SAVED.
(Old Covenant)...beginning 6,000+ years ago.

(New Covenant) is a new provision God Offered....SALVATION Before a mans Earthly Natural Life physically ceases.
(New Covenant)...beginning 2,000+ years ago.

 

[theefaith]

Came to seek and to Save Abraham's Seed !

Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Christ came to seek and to save not all without exception, but all who are of the Chosen Seed of Abraham ! Ps 105:6477

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

This passage in Lk 19 surely indicates this. The man Zacchaeus, because he was blessed to be of that Chosen Seed, Salvation came to his house, as a result of the Seeking Son of man, Note: Those Christ came to save, He seeks them until He finds them, and confers His Salvation Upon them !

That Christ came to seek and to save only a Chosen People called Israel, He clearly states that here Matt 15:24

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What can be more plainer stated, that He was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel !

24 Jesus replied, “I’ve been sent only to the lost sheep, the people of Israel.”[CEB]


24 He said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el.”[CJB]


24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”[ERV]

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[ESV]

Now what does the word only mean ?

He was sent only once by the Father into the World, so He must be Talking about that sending here 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [ The Lost Sheep of Israel] might live through him.

With that in Mind, all other portions stating about Christ being sent for Saving Purposes Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World here must be the World of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, or we have a contradiction with Matt 15:24 ! You see, we must understand the more specific over the general. Yes Jn 3:17 speaks of a World to Save which does not preclude that World being the House of Israel !

only Jews?

 

[theefaith]

Then why did the Jews reject and kill Christ?

 

[Tong2020]

Then why did the Jews reject and kill Christ?

Each of those Jews may have their reasons why they did what they did to Jesus. Speaking of ethnic Israel, what is obvious to me is that they knew not that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and knew him to be many things other than that. Among such, they knew him to be a mere man, a mad man at that, who was found and proven to be guilty of blasphemy, claiming to be God, if not making himself equal with God.

And your asking that question gives me the impression that you are implying that the word of God concerning them has taken no effect, in that, instead of them being saved by Jesus Christ, contrary to that, Jesus who was supposedly sent by God to save them, was killed by them. Of course that is not the case with the word of God. Scriptures is clear about that.

Tong
R3926

 

[Ancient]

Then why did the Jews reject and kill Christ?

That is not correct, you seem to imply that they are all involved, may I remind you His disciples/apostles are of the same people you are referring to. Also good ol Pilate has blood on his hands as well even though he washed them, he also had authority to have him spared.

But ultimately we all killed Him because of our sin. All fall short of the glory of God, all have sinned. Friend you, I and everyone else are responsible. He came to die, He came so we could be redeemed. He came as our Passover Lamb. Also please keep in mind that He Himself said no one takes my life I lay it down. Please be careful of not getting into antisemitism if it wasn't for the Jews we wouldn't even have our Bibles today.

Also please understand that Jesus was a Jew/from the tribe of Judah.

This may help you

Shalom Friens

 

[farouk]

Honest it's really Simple when scripture states what water Batism means. One is Baptized because they have already came alive.
Now they express outwardly to man what God has done in their heart. Recall the things seen are temporary, the things unseen are eternal.

Stop telling on yourself...You the one that left the second part of the scripture out.....

@Corlove13 Acts 2.41 clearly shows that it was those who gladly received his word - i.e., who believed it - were baptized; it wasn't in some (vain?) attempt to become believers that they were baptized; they were clearly believers already.

 

[theefaith]

Each of those Jews may have their reasons why they did what they did to Jesus. Speaking of ethnic Israel, what is obvious to me is that they knew not that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and knew him to be many things other than that. Among such, they knew him to be a mere man, a mad man at that, who was found and proven to be guilty of blasphemy, claiming to be God, if not making himself equal with God.

And your asking that question gives me the impression that you are implying that the word of God concerning them has taken no effect, in that, instead of them being saved by Jesus Christ, contrary to that, Jesus who was supposedly sent by God to save them, was killed by them. Of course that is not the case with the word of God. Scriptures is clear about that.

Tong
R3926

They must repent and be baptized like everyone else, there not special