The necessity of the Trinity

[101G]

Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour".

God sent the Son?

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

these verses has diversity written all over them. so who really came? the "LORD" all cap, or the "Lord", only cap "L".

the "Lord" is the diversity, or the equal share of the LORD himself in flesh. diversity, diversity, diversity. the diversity key is in Malachi 3:1

so who did John the Baptist Prepare the way for, or was the forerunner to? the "LORD" or the "Lord".

PICJAG.

 

[amadeus]

It's like saying "any old Christ will do".

I do not believe in just any old Christ. I am doubtful about a number of things other men have concluded to be truth. When I am in doubt I strive to leave them effectively on the shelf until I have been give good reason to do otherwise.

 

[amadeus]

We are required to believe the true God and the true Messiah. That means the Trinity.

If God really were a trinity and He also required us to believe that then you would be correct. My primary written source is the scripture itself. When the interpretation of the scripture varies from man to man or church to church should I accept your position as final over all others? Why should I? Why not the position of the Catholics or of the UPC or of the Mormons or any of a multitude of others? I simply continue to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness today. He adds to me when He does and does not when He does not. Must we take up a position with an established group or person among men now to walk with Him correctly?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[amadeus]

Not knowing the truth about God and believing false information about him instead = idol worship.

You must see that I believe that I have the necessary truth in walking according to Matt 6:33. Other things deemed necessary as per God will then be added or...?

 

[CoreIssue]

If God really were a trinity and He also required us to believe that then you would be correct. My primary written source is the scripture itself. When the interpretation of the scripture varies from man to man or church to church should I accept your position as final over all others? Why should I? Why not the position of the Catholics or of the UPC or of the Mormons or any of a multitude of others? I simply continue to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness today. He adds to me when He does and does not when He does not. Must we take up a position with an establish group or person among men now to walk with Him correctly?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

Maybe some of the information provided here will help.

Oneness Pentecostalism

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

What you believe about God isn't as important as believing God through what He has said in His word. Theologians come up with their thoughts about God, but, in reality "who can know the mind of God?" That having been said, it is clear from Scripture that God is a tri-unity. That has been the position of orthodox, Bible-informed Christian thought, from the beginning of the Church. Even Jews, with their very strict monotheism, admit that the Hebrew Tanakh can sound like God is more of a "we" than a "me". In Genesis, God says, "Let us make man in our image." There is also Psalm 110 (a Messianic Psalm) where the first verse says, "My LORD said to my Lord, sit in the place of honor at my right hand..."

Finally, in the Hebrew Shema recited by religious Jews twice daily, "Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad" ("Hear O Israel, the Lord Our God is one Lord"--->Deuteronomy 6:4) indicates a compound unity. The word echad would be used, for example, to reference a bunch of grapes. One bunch but more than one grape. According to the ancient Targums, the Israelites were told by the prophets that the Messiah, when He came would be God. The "Ruach ha Kodesh" (the Holy Spirit--literally the "breath of holiness") was also thought to be God. Most of the time, when the Jews referred to Adonai, they meant God the Father but not always--as the Shema indicates.

 

[Enoch111]

If they are heresies they certainly are dangerous, but who decides ultimately what is heresy and what is truth?

According to Scripture, that would be a decision made by the elders within a local church (which of course excludes public forums):

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. (Titus 3:9-11)

Titus was a companion of Paul, but he would have been in the position of an elder (just as Peter calls himself an elder among elders). Since it was the duty of the elders to watch over the spiritual welfare of their flocks, those who subverted Gospel truth and Bible truth would be admonished twice, and then removed from the fellowship of that church.

Heresies pertaining to the deity of Christ and the Trinity were rampant at that time, particularly because of the Gnostics who had entered the churches. So we already know what was true and what was a heresy. Irenaeus wrote a book -- Against Heresies (Adversus Haereses) -- to deal with many heresies. Of course, he was writing from a Catholic perspective. But in this comment Irenaeus is perfectly biblical:

'And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.' [Hebrews 1:8,9]
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 3 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

 

[101G]

No, God will not lead a person astray but after so many years as first a trinitarian and then as Oneness Jesus only and then from 1987 until now as outside both of those areas

Hi, haven't heard form you in a while, hope everything is ok.

First, a good post. correct, God will never lead anyone astray. when I was a trinitarian, as you said, which I was taught, there was scriptures that I question in my own mind, but simply side stepped them and said God don't want me to know. but in the bye and bye he'll let me know .... yea right. so I got bold, and God himself had to knocked some sense into me. as a taught trinitarian, I made the best "MISTAKE" of my life. I made the statement, "untill God almighty himself come down from heaven and say it's no trinity, I'm not believing nothing else". well it did take long and God almighty himself, (he didn't send an angel, no hit ne on IG, or tweeter), but showed up in person, and revealed unto me plainly that there was no trinity. so I had to learn all over again.

I researched for myself, that the leading doctrines of the day, all had a flaw somewhere, even the trinity which I was taught, it was the first doctrine I examine, and found out I was lied to. then onto the Oneness as the UPC teach, they was in error, Unitarian in error, Mormon, JW, ect... nonet line up with the bible. so I asked, and was taught that God is a diversity of himself in flesh. so I learned, and everything I was taught lined up with the bible, no conflicts. it was the KJV of the bible that held all the answers. one word can conceal a life time of information. but when one learn the Spiritual Code taught by the Holy Ghost the true and only living God the bible open up. the scripture is correct, "we walk by Faith and not by sight". when reading the bible with the Holy Spirit, not with eyes only but ears, understanding is allowed. it's incredible when you have the right teacher.

so yes, I checked all of them out and as the scriptures states, "found them to be liers". so no, I don't put anyone down, no, but thank God to opeaning my mind to the truth.

PICJAG

 

[amadeus]

According to Scripture, that would be a decision made by the elders within a local church (which of course excludes public forums):

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. (Titus 3:9-11)

Titus was a companion of Paul, but he would have been in the position of an elder (just as Peter calls himself an elder among elders). Since it was the duty of the elders to watch over the spiritual welfare of their flocks, those who subverted Gospel truth and Bible truth would be admonished twice, and then removed from the fellowship of that church.

Heresies pertaining to the deity of Christ and the Trinity were rampant at that time, particularly because of the Gnostics who had entered the churches. So we already know what was true and what was a heresy. Irenaeus wrote a book -- Against Heresies (Adversus Haereses) -- to deal with many heresies. Of course, he was writing from a Catholic perspective. But in this comment Irenaeus is perfectly biblical:

'And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.' [Hebrews 1:8,9]
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 3 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

This certainly leaves some all of the way on the outside according to men and their churches. As of 6 months ago as I supported my pastor he was put out of his position by the local church authority. That left me on the outside with God alone. Does that make me a heretic because I chose not to join those who put their hands on the Lord's anointed?

 

[amadeus]

Hi, haven't heard form you in a while, hope everything is ok.

I was gone away for several days as God led me. For the moment I am back but I am not here to fight with anyone, I really never was, but sometimes I have been drawn in... It is good to see you as well.

First, a good post. correct, God will never lead anyone astray. when I was a trinitarian, as you said, which I was taught, there was scriptures that I question in my own mind, but simply side stepped them and said God don't want me to know. but in the bye and bye he'll let me know .... yea right. so I got bold, and God himself had to knocked some sense into me. as a taught trinitarian, I made the best "MISTAKE" of my life. I made the statement, "untill God almighty himself come down from heaven and say it's no trinity, I'm not believing nothing else". well it did take long and God almighty himself, (he didn't send an angel, no hit ne on IG, or tweeter), but showed up in person, and revealed unto me plainly that there was no trinity. so I had to learn all over again.

I researched for myself, that the leading doctrines of the day, all had a flaw somewhere, even the trinity which I was taught, it was the first doctrine I examine, and found out I was lied to. then onto the Oneness as the UPC teach, they was in error, Unitarian in error, Mormon, JW, ect... nonet line up with the bible. so I asked, and was taught that God is a diversity of himself in flesh. so I learned, and everything I was taught lined up with the bible, no conflicts. it was the KJV of the bible that held all the answers. one word can conceal a life time of information. but when one learn the Spiritual Code taught by the Holy Ghost the true and only living God the bible open up. the scripture is correct, "we walk by Faith and not by sight". when reading the bible with the Holy Spirit, not with eyes only but ears, understanding is allowed. it's incredible when you have the right teacher.

so yes, I checked all of them out and as the scriptures states, "found them to be liers". so no, I don't put anyone down, no, but thank God to opeaning my mind to the truth.

PICJAG

The Catholics taught me to love God but not a lot more than that and in those days very little scripture was read during the masses and none in the catechism training periods [all prior to changes of Vatican II as I left regular attendance with the Catholics in 1962].

The UPC [Oneness Jesus Only] taught me to read the Bible beginning at age 32 [1976], but it was not long before I found myself with a minority view regarding a primary doctrine for them [salvation only to those properly baptized].

I left the Oneness groups for the last time in 1987. Where have I been since then? God knows!

I never learned about the trinity according to scripture until I began to talk to trinitarians on the Internet from the late 1990's or in the very beginning of this century. I listened and I studied and prayed but no one gave me a reason to believe in the trinity according to the Bible. Many well meaning trinitarians have made a sincere effort but they simple were unable to give me an acceptable argument. I believe that there is no such thing. The only proof of the nature of God is that which He puts in our heart. he has put some things in my heart but none in favor of a trinity.

I remain committed to God and His Son. I am not trinitarian or oneness. What is hard to accept although I may understand it is why so many people insist that to be a real follower of God [purposely not using the term Christian because the definitions involved] a person must believe that He is a trinity. No doubts allowed even though none of them have ever given me a good argument in favor of it using the scriptures.

Give God the glory my friend and stand always on His side...

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I was gone away for several days as God led me. For the moment I am back but I am not here to fight with anyone, I really never was, but sometimes I have been drawn in... It is good to see you as well.


The Catholics taught me to love God but not a lot more than that and in those days very little scripture was read during the masses and none in the catechism training periods [all prior to changes of Vatican II as I left regular attendance with the Catholics in 1962].

The UPC [Oneness Jesus Only] taught me to read the Bible beginning at age 32 [1976], but it was not long before I found myself with a minority view regarding a primary doctrine for them [salvation only to those properly baptized].

I left the Oneness groups for the last time in 1987. Where have I been since then? God knows!

I never learned about the trinity according to scripture until I began to talk to trinitarians on the Internet from the late 1990's or in the very beginning of this century. I listened and I studied and prayed but no one gave me a reason to believe in the trinity according to the Bible. Many well meaning trinitarians have made a sincere effort but they simple were unable to give me an acceptable argument. I believe that there is no such thing. The only proof of the nature of God is that which He puts in our heart. he has put some things in my heart but none in favor of a trinity.

I remain committed to God and His Son. I am not trinitarian or oneness. What is hard to accept although I may understand it is why so many people insist that to be a real follower of God [purposely not using the term Christian because the definitions involved] a person must believe that He is a trinity. No doubts allowed even though none of them have ever given me a good argument in favor of it using the scriptures.

Give God the glory my friend and stand always on His side...

Having a "correct" theology isn't really a salvation issue, Amadeus. We must believe God, not men and men are the makers of theology, based on their own interpretation of Scripture--but who is a perfect interpreter? The Bible interprets itself, in large measure, but there is always room for offshoots of one sort or another. Idols come in all shapes and sizes and I expect that there are some number of Christians who have their pet theologies as idols. I just keep reading and studying and pray that the Holy Spirit helps my understanding--taking me to new levels of His holiness.

 

[amadeus]

Having a "correct" theology isn't really a salvation issue, Amadeus. We must believe God, not men and men are the makers of theology, based on their own interpretation of Scripture--but who is a perfect interpreter? The Bible interprets itself, in large measure but there is always room for offshoots of one sort or another. Idols come in all shapes and sizes and I expect that there are some number of Christians who have their pet theologies as idols. I just keep reading and studying and pray that the Holy Spirit helps my understanding--taking me to new levels of His holiness.

I do like the flavor of your words which is perhaps the most important thing.

One of my best old friends @"ByGrace" on this forum disagrees strongly with me on a couple of issues but still we have been very good friends in the Lord for very many more than 10 years in spite of our differences. This charity or love toward brothers and sisters in Christ as per I Cor chapter 13 is more important than the precise line of belief on any given point.

The pet theologies you mention are indeed too often becoming [if not already so] the Nehushtan which our friend @bbyrd009 is wont to address every now and again.

Thank you for your kind encouragement...

 

[Enoch111]

Does that make me a heretic because I chose not to join those who put their hands on the Lord's anointed?

Of course not. If there was church politics involved then you may have had no choice. On the other hand if your pastor had taught that Jesus is NOT God who died for our sins, that would be another matter. And that's really what we are talking about.

 

[amadeus]

Of course not. If there was church politics involved then you may have had no choice. On the other hand if your pastor had taught that Jesus is NOT God who died for our sins, that would be another matter. And that's really what we are talking about.

No, my pastor taught truth as so few do these days, but he is an old man to be 94 years of age this coming July. They attacked him on his physical frailties calling them spiritual shortcoming but it was to obtain their own glory. Instead of helping him to peacefully continue with what his old flesh could handle while time remains to him some of those younger powers [would be powers] insisted he be removed completely. Now they have the position, but the glory of God remains with that dear old man. He just called me a few minutes ago for prayer and we prayed together on the phone. I believe that it blessed me perhaps more than it did him... Pray with me that God keep him for his pain [not physical] from all of this needless bickering...

Give God the glory!

 

[Dave L]

You must see that I believe that I have the necessary truth in walking according to Matt 6:33. Other things deemed necessary as per God will then be added or...?

Gandhi lived the Sermon on the Mount as a Hindu.

 

[amadeus]

Gandhi lived the Sermon on the Mount as a Hindu.

I have read short summaries of the life of Gandhi. Certainly he seems to have pleased God better than some you and I have known who are bearing the Christian label. But, Gandhi's time is finished so our judgment of yea or nay means little now [if it ever would have].
We must work while it is still day for us and the others about us.

Give God the glory!

 

[101G]

there will be many, who are in the eyes of many, that are said to be good men or women. and the Lord will say to them after they professed, Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

there will be many, who are in the eyes of many, that are said to be good men or women. ahd the Lord will say to them after they professed, Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

PICJAG.

Why does this description seem to fit Charismatics and not mainline Churches?

 

[101G]

Why does this description seem to fit Charismatics and not mainline Churches?

are you so sure, don't you know? ...

 

[Dave L]

are you so sure, don't you know? ...

I think it points to them exclusively.