The necessity of the Trinity

[101G]

Hebrews 1:1-3 explains everything you question above...you chose however to ignore it in the post you quoted.

first thanks for the reply, second, nope it don't.

let's start with the first one, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

well God said that "NO ONE" is equal "WITH" him, supportive, Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One". "me" and "I" are single designations, meaning only ONE PERSON.

Now who is LIKE God, A. he, God a Spirit, if someone is to be like him they must be Spirit also. and now you have two Gods, or

B. "shall I be equal?". I here is again a single desigination, meaning ONE PERSON. God is clearly saing no one is "equal with him". which eliminates any second or third person in or out of any trinity. the bible is clear.

Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?". here again the bible, God own word said that their is no such things as any Co-equal persons with him. that's God words whom I must believe.

so no, Hebrew 1:1-3 do not qualify for a separate and distinct person in the Godhead. but it do qualify for a diversified or "ANOTHER" of God himself in flesh.

we hope you carefully study what we have said,

hoped that helped.

PICJAG

 

[Harvest 1874]

I understand what you believe concerning the great crowd and yes we are in disagreement. One of the reasons we don't believe all believers will have a heavenly calling is that we honestly don't believe that God will destroy this planet into Oblivion as so many people do today. We honestly believe and the scriptures we believe confirm this that God created the planet to stand forever and for it to be inhabited forever. We believe this planet to be a Paradise one day, no wars, no sickness or old age, no dying, no hunger, everyone will have a home, no one homeless

We are in full agreement with you in respects to the earthly phase of the kingdom, however you are mistaken in your assumption that we believe that all believers share in the heavenly calling. The majority of professed believers having been misled have never fully consecrated themselves to the Lord and as such have never been begotten of the Holy Spirit to a new nature, thus they remain of the earth, earthly and in the resurrection will take their place in the earthly phase of the kingdom.

One needs to be very careful of any teaching, which deludes and misleads the individual into believing they are spirit begotten because of a mere profession of faith, the scriptures do not support this.

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (that is the heavenly phase)" John 3:4, 5.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord (i.e. not every one who is a believer), shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)

A distinction here is to be made between entering into the Spiritual Phase of the kingdom and entering into the Earthly Phase of the Kingdom. As we stated the vast majority of professed believers will take their share in the earthly phase, despite what they have been taught by the blind guides.

The fault lies with the individual not taking the time to properly study the matter but rather relying on the blind guides of Christendom who lead them, and as such neither will share in the heavenly phase of the kingdom despite what they might believe.

As our Lord so stated:

“Woe to you lawyers (Doctors of the Law, supposed experts in the laws and precepts of God, today known as the Doctors of Divinity, the blind guides of Christendom)! For you have taken away the key of knowledge (the bible; the standard of truth, substituting your own traditions, theories and beliefs, thus not only deluding yourself, but also those who trusted in you as the Lord’s representatives to show them the way) you did not enter in yourselves (into the spiritual phase of the kingdom), and those who were (attempting to) enter in you hindered (those who were at one time heading in the right direction you have diverted, deceived, mislead and confused ).” (Luke 11:52)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

We are in full agreement with you in respects to the earthly phase of the kingdom, however you are mistaken in your assumption that we believe that all believers share in the heavenly calling. The majority of professed believers having been misled have never fully consecrated themselves to the Lord and as such have never been begotten of the Holy Spirit to a new nature, thus they remain of the earth, earthly and in the resurrection will take their place in the earthly phase of the kingdom.

One needs to be very careful of any teaching, which deludes and misleads the individual into believing they are spirit begotten because of a mere profession of faith, the scriptures do not support this.

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (that is the heavenly phase)" John 3:4, 5.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord (i.e. not every one who is a believer), shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)

A distinction here is to be made between entering into the Spiritual Phase of the kingdom and entering into the Earthly Phase of the Kingdom. As we stated the vast majority of professed believers will take their share in the earthly phase, despite what they have been taught by the blind guides.

The fault lies with the individual not taking the time to properly study the matter but rather relying on the blind guides of Christendom who lead them, and as such neither will share in the heavenly phase of the kingdom despite what they might believe.

As our Lord so stated:

“Woe to you lawyers (Doctors of the Law, supposed experts in the laws and precepts of God, today known as the Doctors of Divinity, the blind guides of Christendom)! For you have taken away the key of knowledge (the bible; the standard of truth, substituting your own traditions, theories and beliefs, thus not only deluding yourself, but also those who trusted in you as the Lord’s representatives to show them the way) you did not enter in yourselves (into the spiritual phase of the kingdom), and those who were (attempting to) enter in you hindered (those who were at one time heading in the right direction you have diverted, deceived, mislead and confused ).” (Luke 11:52)

I'm sorry I guess I misunderstood you when you said that you (Bible Students) disagreed with us concerning the great crowd who we believe to be a earthly class, living on paradise Earth forever. So how are we different concerning the great crowd if we too believe that majority of mankind will be on paradise Earth.

 

[Dave L]

You keep changing your claims.

My body is not spirit.

The body of Christ is not spirit.

He is 100% God in the spirit and 100% man in the flesh, even in his glorified body.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

 

[Harvest 1874]

I'm sorry I guess I misunderstood you when you said that you (Bible Students) disagreed with us concerning the great crowd who we believe to be a earthly class, living on paradise Earth forever. So how are we different concerning the great crowd if we too believe that majority of mankind will be on paradise Earth.

As we had stated in Post #242 the difference between us is that you believe the Great Crowd to be an earthly class while we believe they are a heavenly class.

As this subject is not the focus of this particular thread I have explained our reasoning on my blog page under the article entitled, “The Great Company, Who are they?”

 

[Dave L]

Apart from the trinity, you cannot understand scripture. You remain at the same level of understanding the pharisees had. The New Covenant reveals what once people only saw through a glass darkly.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

As we had stated in Post #242 the difference between us is that you believe the Great Crowd to be an earthly class while we believe they are a heavenly class.

As this subject is not the focus of this particular thread I have explained our reasoning on my blog page under the article entitled, “The Great Company, Who are they?”

 

[brakelite]

Basically, what I believe the following is saying

first thanks for the reply, second, nope it don't.

let's start with the first one, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

well God said that "NO ONE" is equal "WITH" him, supportive, Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One". "me" and "I" are single designations, meaning only ONE PERSON.

Now who is LIKE God, A. he, God a Spirit, if someone is to be like him they must be Spirit also. and now you have two Gods, or

B. "shall I be equal?". I here is again a single desigination, meaning ONE PERSON. God is clearly saing no one is "equal with him". which eliminates any second or third person in or out of any trinity. the bible is clear.

Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?". here again the bible, God own word said that their is no such things as any Co-equal persons with him. that's God words whom I must believe.

so no, Hebrew 1:1-3 do not qualify for a separate and distinct person in the Godhead. but it do qualify for a diversified or "ANOTHER" of God himself in flesh.

we hope you carefully study what we have said,

hoped that helped.

PICJAG

Is that the fleshly person we know as the Messiah, Jesus, was only a son of God in as much as he was incarnated by the holy Spirit. And that the only likeness to the Father was his sinless nature. Is that what you believe?
Thus if this be true as to your beliefs, you do not believe God gave His only begotten Son to a sinful world, but rather gave birth to a Son for a sinful world. Any pre-incarnate concept of the Son of God does not exists in your mind correct?

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

Is that the fleshly person we know as the Messiah, Jesus, was only a son of God in as much as he was incarnated by the holy Spirit. And that the only likeness to the Father was his sinless nature. Is that what you believe?

I believe that Jesus is the equal "share", the "Diversity", of God himself, the Spirit, that G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself in flesh. the spirit that G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself, this nature is sinless, and is know as the Son of man which is not born, nor begotten.
now as for the Messiah, the body of Jesus, that was "MADE" manifested by conception of the Holy Ghost, dwelt in that FLESH and BLOOD, which is in likeness of men, let me say this again, that body was in "LIKENESS" of men, this is the Son of God, which was begotten and born. and that flesh Body was made by Jesus, the Spirit himself to come in, or dwell in, to give his Life/blood as a ransom for the sin of the world. this is the Messiah manifested in a body.

Thus if this be true as to your beliefs, you do not believe God gave His only begotten Son to a sinful world, but rather gave birth to a Son for a sinful world. Any pre-incarnate concept of the Son of God does not exists in your mind correct?

incorrect. God gave/sent his "OWN ARM", his diversified self into this world, whom you know as the son, (not biological, but spirit) to give his life, (blood, in the body), as a ransom for the sin of the world, meaning all men (males/females).
supportive scripture, please note these scriptures so that you can fully understand what we're saying.
Isaiah 59:16 "And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him".
Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

did you understand those scriptures. God diversified himself, and came in flesh to save the world.
I believe God himself came as the "OFFSPRING", or the diversity of David, (his house, the rightful heir as King)

now as for any pre-incarnate concept of the Son of God, the scriptures are clear. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

how do we know this? Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

this is God, JESUS, the Holy Spirit counsel and it will not change.

PICJAG.

 

[brakelite]

So you do not believe that Christ, the Son of the living God, is a separate personality to the Father? Or a literal Son?

 

[101G]

So you do not believe that Christ, the Son of the living God, is a separate personality to the Father? Or a literal Son?

first thanks for the reply, second, the Son of God is the flesh that manifest the spirit that's in it. listen, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"

Here, "Express Image" is the Greek word,
G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n.
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image
Compare: G1125, G1504

notice definition #3, “character,”, do you know what "son" means biblically? listen, G5207, huios, It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics. descendants, without reference to sex. those who manifest a certain character, whether evil or good. my source, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

see the term, "son" biblically, do not nesseary means a biological "son". now, the son of the LIVING God is God himself "shared" in flesh. listen to the scriptures, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

God's "OWN" ARM? not someone's else arm. but his "OWN", meaning him, his "own" ARM. and is not the Lord Jesus God's ARM? yes. so the Arm of God is God in flesh.

let us give you a clear example of this in the natural so that you can understand the spiritual. when Sennacherib king of Assyria came aganist Hezekiah he had had his "army" with him, and king Hezekiah and the people was afraid. look how the bible describe this army. 2 Chronicles 32:6 "And he set captains of war over the people, and gathered them together to him in the street of the gate of the city, and spake comfortably to them, saying,
2 Chronicles 32:7 "Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is with him: for there be more with us than with him:
2 Chronicles 32:8 "With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah.

Sennacherib "arm of flesh" was his faithing men, his ARMY. now take this into the spiritual. Jesus is the "ARM" of God in Flesh. an army of ONE. remember the scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". see the christ is God's OWN ARM. for christ is the wisdom and "POWER" of God, (see 1 Corinthians 1:24).

see Jesus is God own "arm" in flesh, he's God "arm of flesh", God's OWN ARM. not some separate person, but God himself in flesh.

see it now. so no, "the Son of the living God, is .... NOT ... a separate personality to the Father?. he is his "OWN ARM", not a separate person.

now we will reveal to you the one true God who holds the Titles both "Father" and the "Son" ... the HOLY SPIRIT, yes, the HOLY SPIRIT, whom many puts "last" is the first and only, who is the one true God, JESUS, Jesus is Father, (Holy Spirit), without flesh and bones, and Jesus is Son, (Holy Spirit, diversified), with flesh and bone. this is called "Diversified Oneness". better known in your bibles as the "OFFSPRING", or the another of God in flesh, hence the plurality of God as ONE . listen,

OFFSPRING: G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

see how the KJV can translate offspring ... "diversity". and note the term states "kin" as in KINsman Redeemer.
Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".

hope this help,

PICVJAG.

 

[bbyrd009]

how many of you are there up there anyway; legion? Do you take turns typing?
Do you refer to yourself in the third person too?
Am I misunderstanding the intent there? Dunno

"The word "trinity" does not occur in the Bible and it took a few centuries of fermenting in a Greco-Roman Petri dish (and the decree of an emperor who was no theologian by a long shot) for the "Church Fathers" to come up with the Trinitarian dogma as un-solution to an otherwise non-existing problem.

The Bible writers, on the other hand, were unyielding monotheists and obviously didn't think much of pagan pantheons or could care less about the wholly pagan dilemma of where God the Father might end and God the Son began, and Who might have come up with Whom first (but to give a hint: the summit of Rome's divine pyramid comprised the so-called Capitoline Triad, which first consisted of Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus, and later Jupiter, Juno and Minerva)..." The amazing name Pantokrator: meaning and etymology

 

[101G]

the replacements of Christ on earth by men has been around. but the answer to this nonesense is Galatians 4:19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you". until then, we will have these Nero's, pharaoh's, and Pope's.

PICJAG.

 

[farouk]

The New Testament is full of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; see especially John's Gospel, chapters 13 thru 17; John's First Epistle, Romans 8, etc.

 

[101G]

The New Testament is full of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; see especially John's Gospel, chapters 13 thru 17; John's First Epistle, Romans 8, etc.

yes, seeing is not believing if not understood. example, John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

to the untrained eye, many would bet their life on this verse in saying that this is two Persons. God the "Father" and Jesus Christ the "Son"

but they have a problem if they believe that this is true. because if the Father, (here refered to as God) is the "ONLY" true God then Jesus in some doctrine is not EQUAL, or a Co-Equal Person in a trinity. because if one use the term God to refere to the Father, then Jesus is just a Person by himself, and not God. but if Jesus is Co-Equal as some doctrine sates that he then the TERM "God" here would apply to Jesus, (the Son) also. for if he's a separate personality of God then God sent himself. because remember the verse said, "whom thou hast sent".

so then is Jesus is God, and is a separate person as many believe here in John 17 then Jesus is not obly a separate person, but a separate God.

why do we say this, because Philippians 2:7 said, "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". now only God can make "HIMSELF" G2758 κενόω kenoo. knowing this, if Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, as some say, then you have two separate, or split "GODS". one on earth in a body of Flesh, and the other still in Heaven. if true, that's polytheism by definition.

next time we'll look at John 16 and see who really sent the "COMFORT"

a heads up, A. John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". this is Jesus, the Son, speaking.
B. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you".

so who sent the "Comforter"? the Father or the Son.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

Who sent the Comforter?

Let God tell us. John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". this is the Lord Jesus, the Son, speaking. he said that he will "SEND" the comforter. question can JESUS lie? NO

Now this, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". here the Lord Jesus said the "Father will send the Comforter. again can the Lord Jesus LIE? NO.

ok, so who sent the "Comforter". all Christian say they believe the word of God, the bible. ok, let's put this statement to the test.

who sent the "Comforter"? the Father or the Son.

the only choices one have is A. the Son and the Father is the same PERSON, or B. the bible lied, God forbid. ok it's christianity check time, do you really believe what the bibls say, or what man say.

Man say the Father is not the Son, and vice versa. well it time to see if who is true or who is false. your choice.

the bible is clear, a true Christian is an Overcomer when the test comes, true Christian tell the TRUTH. this is a simple test.

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

GINOLJC, to all.

Who sent the Comforter?

Let God tell us. John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". this is the Lord Jesus, the Son, speaking. he said that he will "SEND" the comforter. question can JESUS lie? NO

Now this, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". here the Lord Jesus said the "Father will send the Comforter. again can the Lord Jesus LIE? NO.

ok, so who sent the "Comforter". all Christian say they believe the word of God, the bible. ok, let's put this statement to the test.

who sent the "Comforter"? the Father or the Son.

the only choices one have is A. the Son and the Father is the samr PERSON, or B. the bible lied, God forbid. ok it's christianity check time, do you really believe what the bibls say, or what man say.

Man say the Father is not the Son, and vice versa. well it time to see if who is true oe who is false. your choice.

the bible is clear, a true Christian is an Overcomer when the test comes, true Christian tell the TRUTH. this is a simple test.

PICJAG.

You are very confused. God is one spirit with three co-eternal distinct persons. You prefer to say he is a split personality instead. But there is no Son without a Father, so as soon as the Father splits into the Son, God ceases to exist. Not being either Father or Son.

 

[101G]

You are very confused. God is one spirit with three co-eternal distinct persons. You prefer to say he is a split personality instead. But there is no Son without a Father, so as soon as the Father splits into the Son, God ceases to exist. Not being either Father or Son.

so we can as usual take this as another you cannot answer the test....... (smile)....

PICJAG

 

[Dave L]

so we can as usual take this as another you cannot answer the test....... (smile)....

PICJAG

There is no test. The outcome says it all. You depict God as a split personality rather than submit to the clear scripture teaching on the trinity.

 

[Enoch111]

who sent the "Comforter"? the Father or the Son.

Both. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit. And distinct from the Father and the Son.