The necessity of the Trinity

[APAK]

Big-picture note: I am asking to understand what you believe, and for no purpose other than that. I'm not here to hate on anyone or "prove" anything "right" or anything like that.

I thank you for your response here. It directly addressed my question, stated your beliefs, was thorough, but not overly lengthy. Thank you.

Your reply was actually so thorough, I don't really have any clarification questions. So instead asking some expansion ones:
- Could you explain your view on the Spirit?
- I noticed that your explanation here was similar to Harvest1874's. Are you by chance a Bible Student or JW as well?
- Do you consider having a proper academic understanding of God to be prerequisite to salvation?

Jane: Here are the other answers you requested.

The Spirit as I have previously written is the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of the God, our Father. It is the source of all life that has pure divine intellect. It works hand-on-hand with the word or inner thoughts and expressions of God our Father. The word is first given and then the divine Spirit executes it, for many purposes, such as in creation, or to instill powers or attributes to a spirit person, to intercede.. etc. The Spirit, it is dispensed in portions to other spirits for specific purposes and desires of the Father. Jesus is a special spirit of the Spirit of the Father that is very unique that maps the Father's image or spiritual DNA, if you will.


Not a labelled as a congregation per se, even though I do see merits in the SDA, JW, COG, Polish Brethren, and Christadelpians, and the splinter group that are called the Bible Students.

I have been a formal Bible student from the age of 12 years old. Studied a bit with the Jesuits brothers, then self-studied especially when I became converted in Christ after 19 years old. My mother was interested in booking me into the priesthood at one point. I have prayed with the spirit given to me to guide my thoughts and meanings of the Father’s written words and what he ‘speaks’ about and directs me to do. I have learned a great deal through what the Spirit says to others, in person, in books or even on these types of forums.

I do not believe one requires a formal academic understanding of God to become saved at all. The Spirit calls and the heart of the intended target spirit responds. We are made to respond to God if he desires it. It is not a mental examination but a spiritual and spontaneous exercise of the spirit. The spirit learns spiritual things and works and not flesh/ material mental works for salvation.

Blessings,

APAK

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane: Here are the other answers you requested.

Thank you again for your direct and informative answers. One clarification question--

The Spirit as I have previously written is the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of the God, our Father. It is the source of all life that has pure divine intellect. It works hand-on-hand with the word or inner thoughts and expressions of God our Father. The word is first given and then the divine Spirit executes it, for many purposes, such as in creation, or to instill powers or attributes to a spirit person, to intercede.. etc. The Spirit, it is dispensed in portions to other spirits for specific purposes and desires of the Father. Jesus is a special spirit of the Spirit of the Father that is very unique that maps the Father's image or spiritual DNA, if you will.

So from what i"m getting here: you believe that the Father is the exact same thing/being/person as the Spirit. Correct?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well I really did not want to answer someone that lacks understanding of scripture and also calls himself a preacher. Folks like you need to be spotlighted for others to review and scrutinize, in a public forum.

Yes, you are correct, I'm not a convert of your religious order. I'm a converted spirit in Christ and I love every moment of it. Glory to his name and his beloved Son that died for me and you. Amen

Bless you as God knows,

APAK

He doesn’t understand scripture and you say the Christ is a created being?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well I really did not want to answer someone that lacks understanding of scripture and also calls himself a preacher. Folks like you need to be spotlighted for others to review and scrutinize, in a public forum.

Yes, you are correct, I'm not a convert of your religious order. I'm a converted spirit in Christ and I love every moment of it. Glory to his name and his beloved Son that died for me and you. Amen

Bless you as God knows,

APAK

A converted person doesn’t blaspheme God as you have done.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry but the only way in which the Trinity is supported by scripture is if the scriptures are wrestled and twisted, something which the apostate church has had plenty of time to perfect.

That's funny, Trinitarians think the same of those who reject the trinity. Did you arrive at your position from independent personal study? Or did someone teach it to you?

 

[Dave L]

well, well, well, I'm a false teacher now? oh well, been called worest. but to you read John 3:13 while on earth Jesus was in Heaven at the same time.

second, if Im a false teacher ... according to you, reconcicle John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 then. tell us that this is two separate persons..... (smile) .. lol.

then we will see who is a false teacher or not.

PICJAG.

There are blind teachers too. The Pharisees believed exactly as you do concerning God.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Not a follower, a respecter of. As well as the late Walter Martin. And a number of other solid Christians. All of whom say Followers Russell are a cult.

All "solid Christians" according to whom? To You? To Orthodoxy? The world loves its own.

So your faith in the teachings of these men doesn't make you a follower of them, yet you accuse me of being a follower of Russell for having faith in his teachings, sounds a bit like hypocrisy to me.

 

[101G]

Now you said this at least once before, and I disagree again...

Let me explain again…start with verse 6b...

(Php 2:6) Who, though being in the mental image of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

Philippians 2:6 has a few prevailing translations especially part b.

One is what you wrote: “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"

And the other is what I have written above: “did not consider grasping at being equal with God,” which I believe it more clear and fitting ..both I understand though.

Here another version of Phil 2:6b..KJV

(Php 2:6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Now there is another explanation for your version and the other similar one that I wrote….that because he yielded his will completely to his Father and his Father actually ruled his spirit and will, then of course he would not think it was robbery to be considered equal with God, who is his Father. This never means he was actually the same as his Father in every way. That would be a great leap off the cliff to insanity.

And to your Phil 2:6a explanation again. It is completely incorrect to begin to say Jesus was being in the form or image of his Father then leap to being the same is nature. The Greek work here is not to say Jesus has the intrinic or nature of his Father. Look there would be no need to go through and describe Jesus in the way it does in Phip 2:6 if he was by nature, the same as the Father. Why bother! There was another clearer and simpler purpose in mind. There would be no need to say he is being in a form of….makes no sense… That would another great leap off the cliff to insanity.


See Phil 2:5 opens more of the context. Having the mind of Christ for us as Jesus was referring to himself as having the mind of his Father. It is that clear if you are willing to read verse 5.

(Php 2:5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I hope you understand my post, completely..cannot have a meaningful discussion if you just cherry-pick verses without understanding the context..


Thanks


Bless you,


APAK

GINOLJC, to all
first thanks for the reply, second, yes that's the main problem, to many translation which confuse men. but God is not the author of Confusion, hence we use the KJV translation. so in Phil 2:6 it's the term "FORM", being used here, hence being in the form of God, here FORM is "Nature".
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n. if we're in error about the word "Form" correct us.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

and the NATURE of God is Spirit. the Lord Jesus has the same NATURE, because John 1:1c clearly bare this out. knowing this, and
now working from this premise, we answer all of your basic concerns above. the Lord Jesus must be the equal share of the Spirit himself, in order to A. G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself, B. be equal to the Spirit. here's why, no one is equal to God, supportive scripture, Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One". me and I are single desiginations, meaning ONE PERSON. but notice in Phil 2:6 it said, "equal "WITH" not equal to. so that right there eliminates any 2nd or third PERSONS in any Godhead. equal "WITH", again confirms John 1:1b which bare this out. the ONLY way to be equal "WITH" is to be the equal "SHARE".
so yes, the Lord Jesus have the SAME nature as the Spirit, and was G2758 κενόω kenoo when in flesh with blood. so the form of God/Jesus is Spirit.

now to address your second part... Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". YES, we have have it, listen, 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ".
this is the whole reason why God came in flesh........ to manifest his will to men. God came in the flesh, face to face with man to know his will personally.

now, how do we know "Form" here is Nature?. since you accused me of cherrying picking, lets see it, the TRUTH. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". question, is not the Lord Jesus the ARM of God? yes, but God is a Spirit (John 4:24a) ... his own, own, own, ARM? .... well. and as for cherry picking, we suggest you do the same because the bible say so, listen, Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little". get that APAK? here a little there a little, if that's cherry picking, I'm in. but the the reason why to cherry pick is the verse before, listen, Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts". we suggest you get off the similac, and start picking cherries.

I understand your point, but it do not line up with the word of God in Phil chapter2. see the Lord Jesus, God almighty, manifested his will in the earth realm. he is our EXAMPLE to KNOW and understand his will. we hope you can understand the point we're presenting.

PICJAG

 

[Harvest 1874]

That's funny, Trinitarians think the same of those who reject the trinity. Did you arrive at your position from independent personal study? Or did someone teach it to you?

A combination of both. Anyone possessed of the "spirit of a sound mind" ought to be able to simply read the scriptures and ascertain for themselves the truth on this issue. The problem is that most are wearing the colored glasses of the creeds and thus are restricted in what they should believe.

 

[Dave L]

A combination of both. Anyone possessed of the "spirit of a sound mind" ought to be able to simply read the scriptures and ascertain for themselves the truth on this issue. The problem is that most are wearing the colored glasses of the creeds and thus are restricted in what they should believe.

Sound mind = carnal mind that cannot discern spiritual truth.

 

[101G]

*Thumbs up for friendlenss.* Feel free to PM me, if you'd like.

Jane, tommorrow, we will try to get some information to you that might get you started to understand our position better. ok.

Ok, Jane, here is what the Lord Jesus started me off with to understand A. the Godhead, and the ONE person in it.

"of" ..... yes, this little preposition open the door for me to understand what the Lord Jesus the truth of God was saying about the Godhead. this little two word preposition open the door for me to understand what the apostles, and the disciple knew about the Godhead.

listen to the definition "of". I'm using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. "of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned here, which need careful distinction.

notice someting right off the bat. the Spirit "of" God. it's God himself. watch, spirit of 101G, it's 101G, not someone else. so the Spirit of God is the one many in ERROR calls Father. so the Spirit of GOD, who is the Holy Spirit is the Father. so two persons right off the bat are eliminated.

here are your golden nuggets for today.

Definition time

Subjective: 1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual:

Objective: something that one's efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish; purpose; goal; target:
example: the objective of a military attack; the objective of a fund-raising drive.

by knowing these terms, now we must understand the following terms in order to understand God coming in flesh in the likeness as a man, and they are in relation to the above terms. and they are

A. Abstract: 1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances:
2. expressing a quality or characteristic apart from any specific object or instance, as justice, and poverty.

B. Concrete: 1. constituting an actual thing or instance; real: a concrete proof of his sincerity.
2. pertaining to or concerned with realities or actual instances rather than abstractions; particular (opposed to general):

diversified oneness is the "DOOR", Jesus the Christ, in understanding God .... and himself in the term "GODHEAD", which is the sharing of himself/Spirit, hence the term God H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), which is a plurality "of" oneself, meaning "ANOTHER" of oneself.

Now "Another" is the next term we will examing in our study of the Godhead. but study these terms and it will give a good foundation to build on in understanding the Godhead.

now to get you started. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

ok, God is "Subjective", abstract, but his ARM, who is the Lord Jesus is "Concrete", the Objective, meaning God carried our his own will in flesh and blood, which confirms Philippians 2:6 & 7.


now if you have any questions, just PM me also. understand, don't worry about these definitions, this basically is all you need for now. and again thanks for asking

remember "of" is the key to the GODHEAD.

PICJAG.

 

[APAK]

Thank you again for your direct and informative answers. One clarification question--

So from what i"m getting here: you believe that the Father is the exact same thing/being/person as the Spirit. Correct?

Yes, the same as the Father although it has an internal and external component to it. The (W)word is his internal component of his Spirit that is always active and is his expression and will; his core being. And his external component of his Spirit is the Holy Spirit for example, that gets subdivided into small groups or subsets as he desires, that extends his presence into our universe and world and keeps it. It forms his 'body' if you will.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[101G]

Yes, the same as the Father although it has an internal and external component to it. The (W)word is his internal component of his Spirit that is always active and is his expression and will; his core being. And his external component of his Spirit is the Holy Spirit for example, that gets subdivided into small groups or subsets as he desires, that extends his presence into our universe and world and keeps it. It forms his 'body' if you will.

Bless you,

APAK

Good, now that some understand that the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit who is the Holy Ghost the Father.

Now one more step, JESUS is the Holy Spirit. let's see it, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

here, clearly JESUS tells us he is the Holy Spirit. one Spirit, ONE PERSON.

PICJAG

 

[APAK]

Good, now that some understand that the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit who is the Holy Ghost the Father.

Now one more step, JESUS is the Holy Spirit. let's see it, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

here, clearly JESUS tells us he is the Holy Spirit. one Spirit, ONE PERSON.

PICJAG

101G..I have to disagree again on this one point here..sorry does not do it for me

No, it clearly states, being mindful of the context that Jesus is now immortal, and after his ascension into heaven he can now partake freely of the Holy Spirit with authority, to send the spirit of truth to those believers, through the Holy Spirit which is part of the Father, not Jesus. The source of all spirits is always of/from the Father.

Jesus does ‘come to them’ as he now partakes or is directly 'linked up' if you will, and is permitted to use the Holy Spirit for his purpose that is always congruent with the Father’s will. He is doing his Father's Spirit work to a great or massive extent and represents the power of his Father from Heaven.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Ok, Jane, here is what the Lord Jesus started me off with to understand A. the Godhead, and the ONE person in it.

"of" ..... yes, this little preposition open the door for me to understand what the Lord Jesus the truth of God was saying about the Godhead. this little two word preposition open the door for me to understand what the apostles, and the disciple knew about the Godhead.

listen to the definition "of". I'm using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. "of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned here, which need careful distinction.

notice someting right off the bat. the Spirit "of" God. it's God himself. watch, spirit of 101G, it's 101G, not someone else. so the Spirit of God is the one many in ERROR calls Father. so the Spirit of GOD, who is the Holy Spirit is the Father. so two persons right off the bat are eliminated.

here are your golden nuggets for today.

Definition time

Subjective: 1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual:

Objective: something that one's efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish; purpose; goal; target:
example: the objective of a military attack; the objective of a fund-raising drive.

by knowing these terms, now we must understand the following terms in order to understand God coming in flesh in the likeness as a man, and they are in relation to the above terms. and they are

A. Abstract: 1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances:
2. expressing a quality or characteristic apart from any specific object or instance, as justice, and poverty.

B. Concrete: 1. constituting an actual thing or instance; real: a concrete proof of his sincerity.
2. pertaining to or concerned with realities or actual instances rather than abstractions; particular (opposed to general):

diversified oneness is the "DOOR", Jesus the Christ, in understanding God .... and himself in the term "GODHEAD", which is the sharing of himself/Spirit, hence the term God H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem'), which is a plurality "of" oneself, meaning "ANOTHER" of oneself.

Now "Another" is the next term we will examing in our study of the Godhead. but study these terms and it will give a good foundation to build on in understanding the Godhead.

now to get you started. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

ok, God is "Subjective", abstract, but his ARM, who is the Lord Jesus is "Concrete", the Objective, meaning God carried our his own will in flesh and blood, which confirms Philippians 2:6 & 7.


now if you have any questions, just PM me also. understand, don't worry about these definitions, this basically is all you need for now. and again thanks for asking

remember "of" is the key to the GODHEAD.

PICJAG.

...so... Do you believe Christ is talking to himself while he's praying?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes, the same as the Father although it has an internal and external component to it. The (W)word is his internal component of his Spirit that is always active and is his expression and will; his core being. And his external component of his Spirit is the Holy Spirit for example, that gets subdivided into small groups or subsets as he desires, that extends his presence into our universe and world and keeps it. It forms his 'body' if you will.

Bless you,

APAK

Once again, thank you for your direct and informative response. It has really helped me have a better understanding of your beliefs.

 

[SovereignGrace]

101G..I have to disagree again on this one point here..sorry does not do it for me

No, it clearly states, being mindful of the context that Jesus is now immortal, and after his ascension into heaven he can now partake freely of the Holy Spirit with authority, to send the spirit of truth to those believers, through the Holy Spirit which is part of the Father, not Jesus. The source of all spirits is always of/from the Father.

Jesus does ‘come to them’ as he now partakes or is directly 'linked up' if you will, and is permitted to use the Holy Spirit for his purpose that is always congruent with the Father’s will. He is doing his Father's Spirit work to a great or massive extent and represents the power of his Father from Heaven.

Bless you,

APAK

Jesus is not now immortal...He has always been immortal.

You reek of a Dakeite.

Finis Jennings Dake averred...

The word "Christ" literally means "anointed" and is a name applied to Jesus when He became the anointed of God. Jesus became the anointed of God or Christ 30 years after He was called Jesus. . . . History records that the time He became the "Anointed" was at His baptism.

As man and as God's Son He was not eternal, He did have a beginning, He was begotten, this being the same time Mary had a Son. Therefore, the doctrine of eternal sonship of Jesus Christ is irreconcilable to reason, is unscriptural, and is contradictory to itself. . . . The word Son supposes time, generation, father, mother, beginning, and conception. . . . If sonship refers to deity, not to humanity, then this person of the Deity had a beginning in time and not in eternity.


The various doctrine books teach that Christ possessed all the glory, nature, and attributes of God during His earthly life just as much as when He was in the form of God. They give us proof for their conclusion that Christ had:

1. Omnipotence (Matt. 8:16, 26-27; Luke 4:35-41; 5:25; 7:14-15; 8:54-55; Eph. 1:20).

2. Omniscience (Mark 2:8; Luke 5:4-5, 22; 22:10-12; Jn. 1:48; 2:24-25; 4:15-19, etc.).

3. Omnipresence (Matt. 18:20; 28:20; Jn. 3:13; 14:20; 2 Cor. 13:5; Eph. 1:13).

4. Eternity (John 1:1; 17:5; 8:58; Mic. 5:2; Col. 1:17; Heb. 13:8; 1 Jn. 1:1).

5. Immutability (Heb. 1:12; 13:8).

Upon examination of these passages it can be seen that not one passage teaches that Christ had or used these attributes of Himself while on earth. . . . The true Biblical teaching of the kenosis of Christ is that in taking human form He divested Himself of His divine attributes. . . .

Sadly, you don’t know God nor His Christ.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

A converted person doesn’t blaspheme God as you have done.

Are we saved by passing a theology test?
No.
A person may be EXTREMELY misinformed about God and completely fail to academically understand Him, but we are not saved by passing theology test.
That's not to say academic learning isn't important (because it very much is), but it is not how we are saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Are we saved by passing a theology test?
No.
A person may be EXTREMELY misinformed about God and completely fail to academically understand Him, but we are not saved by passing theology test.
That's not to say academic learning isn't important (because it very much is), but it is not how we are saved.

To say the Christ is a created being is not a thing a true CHRISTian would say.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

To say the Christ is a created being is not a thing a true CHRISTian would say.

Is a person saved by their ability to pass a theology test?