The Necessity Of Tongues As A Prayer Language

[Nomad]

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second... Heb 8:13 ...In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. [/I]Ever heard of rightly dividing the word of truth? But this is all irrelevant. We're not talking here about the Old Testment. The things you reject or take lightly as far as this conversation is concerned are found in the New Testament. This makes all the difference in the world.

1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.[/i]

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.[/B] And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him...[/I]

 

[Polar]

[quote name='MickinEngland;71343]Not at all' date=' if they quietly mumble it under their breaths.Or do they think they have to shout it out to make God hear them?The bottom line is that Paul said he'd rather people preached than tongue-spoke, yet they blatantly ignore him and go on babbling loudly regardless, not good. (1 Cor 14:37-38)[/QUOTE'] -- Mick, this is your response to my statement, "Paul's "firm sensible guidelines for tongue-speaking" are still going to make Christians look stupid to non-believers." Your statement is specious, at best. It implies that a Christian speaking in tongues/praying in the spirit is either going to mumble or shout and there is no middle ground. You know better than that. But many non-believers would be/are still put off at the site of a person standing with their eyes closed mumbling, whether they thought they were praying or not. And if you look at the day of Pentecost you will see that Peter and the other disciples did not 'mumble' when the Holy Spirit came upon them and they began to speak in tongues. As far as what Paul 'preferred' you are correct, but he did not call for them to cease praying in tongues. Nor did he call for them to mumble it lest we embarass ourselves in front of non-believers. He spoke concerning the motive behind it, wanting to ensure that people didn't see it as the be all, end all, and that there is more to living/showing your faith than just that. Also, when someone at church has a prophecy, a non-believer would be offended by that. When someone at church raises their hands and praises God in their own native tongue, non-believers have an issue with that. When Christians tithe to their church instead of giving that money to Amnesty International, Greenpeace, or a charity to feed the poor, non-believers have an issue with that, as well. In getting back to the point, if a Christian prays in the spirit, prays/praises in tongues, he should care less what a non-believer thinks and should not have to worry what fellow Christians think. Christians need to be concerned more about the plank than the splinter.

 

[MickinEngland]

Talk all you want muchacho, but the fact remains you refuse to obey Paul when he says "I'd rather you preached than tongue-spoke" As for women, i'd listen to a woman pastor even if you won't, but if she turns out to be no good i won't listen to her any more, i think giving women a chance is a fair approach..My view is that isolated groups of chatterbox women were disrupting early church meetings so Paul had to tell them to clam up, that's all. In context, women are the equal of men in Gods eyes-"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 ) And there were women preachers such as Deborah, preacher, judge and military leader; The evangelist Philip had four daughters who preached; The early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two preachers Priscilla and Maximilla..And Paul paid glowing tributes to women -"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me.. Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me.Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.. Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)

 

[Polar]

[quote name='MickinEngland;71352]Talk all you want muchacho' date=' but the fact remains you refuse to obey Paul when he says "I'd rather you preached than tongue-spoke"[/QUOTE'] -- LOL Now you're just being silly "Muchacho." You have moved away from your point (which you have apparenty conceded) about "as long as you don't embarss yourself and other Christians in front of non-believers, to one where you are going incorrectly infer that Paul says you should never pray in tongues, only preach. I do preach. I witness. I share.....AND I pray in tongues. You are going to have to do better than that. I sit here amused at your need to tap dance.

 

[Nomad]

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )[/I]

In context? No, not the way you're using it -- completely out of context. Your take on this verse proves too much. It inevitably has Paul contradicting himself. What Paul is driving at is clear when you interpret your proof-text in context. Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Paul is saying that no matter what your nationality, gender, or station in life, all are equally "sons" in Christ. Notice the highlighted text above. This in no way obliterates all distinctions between people. Those distinctions are made clear throughout Scripture. For example, laymen are to submit to the authority of their elders and women are not to teach or have authority over men. It's also interesting to note that the qualifications for an elder in 1 Tim. 3 only pertain to men. Does this mean that women and laymen are inferior? No, of course not. All are equally "children" of God in Christ Jesus. But this fact doesn't do away with Biblical distinctions of office and function within the Church. To rip Galatians 3:28 out of its context in order to do away with all distinction, again, proves too much as it makes Paul contradict himself. Here's a selection from one of my favorite commentaries on Galatians 3:28. I believe it would be profitable for you to look at it carefully as it should give you perspective and balance. In Paul’s day fraticidal class-distinctions were the order of the day, just as they are still in many quarters. See N.T.C. on Colossians and Philemon, pp. 151–154, where this same subject is discussed in some detail in connection with Col. 3:11. For the present purpose it is necessary only to note that the Jews drew a sharp line of separation between themselves and the “swarms” or “hordes” (“goyim”) of outsiders, heathen nations in contrast with Israel. Often such heathen were simply called “dogs.” Even proselytes to the Jewish religion were never fully “accepted.” After all, they were not “children of Abraham.” It seems that the Judaizers of Paul’s day had not broken away from this feeling of disdain for non-Jews. Gentiles, too, were often guilty of similar snobbery. They looked down upon the Jews as much as the latter looked down upon them. And as to their attitude toward slaves, it cannot have been far removed from that of Aristotle, who called a slave “an animated implement,” a mere breathing tool. And as to the distinction between male and female, even such a man of culture as Josephus, if the passage in his work Against Apion (II.xxiv) be genuine, declared, “The woman, so says the law, is inferior in all things to man.” What Paul is saying, then, is that all such distinctions—be they racial-religious (“neither Jew nor Greek”), social (“neither slave nor freeman”), or sexual (“no male and female”)—must be thoroughly and forever abandoned, since in Christ all are equal.Hendriksen, William ; Kistemaker, Simon J.: New Testament Commentary : Exposition of Galatians. Grand Rapids : Baker Book House, 1953-2001 (New Testament Commentary 8), S. 149

Deborah was a prophetess, which is also allowed in the New Testament. See below. She was also a judge over the civil affairs of Israel. She wasn't a priest. Deborah was also the only female judge in Israel's history, so as far as that goes she was the exception. That should send up a red flag in your mind when it comes to having her overturn a New Testament command that is explicit and crystal clear.

The early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two preachers Priscilla and Maximilla...

Are you serious? Since when do we use the actions and beliefs of heretical groups as a standard or measuring rod? Do I really need to go into some of the other things they did and believed?

Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me.Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.. Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)

You're really grasping at straws here Mick. None of these have anything to do with women having authority over a man in the Church.

 

[MickinEngland]

Polar and Nomad, gentlemen you're tying yourselves in knots with your long convoluted posts, try to address each specific point individually so that I can deal with each one individually, rather than just firing a big shotgun-blast of tangled spaghetti at me..So far I think we've established that Polar tongue-speaks even though it puts people off Christianity, and Nomad believes women shouldn't preach, have I got that right?

 

[Nomad]

"shot-gun blast of tangled spaghetti"[/I] it's probably because you are running head-long into the truth which you find "uncomfortable." My point was never the issue of women and authority. That was merely a bunny trail you gladly traveled in an attempt to divert attention from the real problem here. In this and other threads, you have made it clear that for you Christianity is a cafeteria where you decide which commands and institutions you will follow based on your "comfort level." Sound familiar?

 

[Polar]

"So far I think we've established that Polar tongue-speaks even though it puts people off Christianity, and Nomad believes women shouldn't preach, have I got that right?" -- After your last post I have every confidence that is indeed the extent of your ability to understand. Unfortunately for you, other people can read what you've posted throughout, as well.

 

[MickinEngland]

[quote name='Nomad;71364]..you have made it clear that for you Christianity is a cafeteria where you decide which commands and institutions you will follow based on your "comfort level."?[/QUOTE] Yes' date=' God gives us free choice and watches to see how we do..Any trained chimp can follow the Bible literally word-for-word, but God doesn't want monkeys, he wants free-thinking humans.. [IMG']http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/smok-monky.jpg[/IMG]

 

[Nomad]

I invite you to look up the terms "strawman argument" and "caricature." I'll end this ridiculous exchange with a quote:[quote name='Polar;71367] Unfortunately for you' date=' other people can read what you've posted throughout, as well.[/QUOTE']

 

[MickinEngland]

I invite you to look up the terms "strawman argument"..

Is that anything like a Wicker Man? I saw some pagans burn Edward Woodward inside one once; mind you he thoroughly deserved it for his bad acting and for having too many 'W's' in his name

 

[Polar]

LOL Pretending all the quotes Mick posted were true and willfully ignoring all possible contexts they may have been given under, it brings up two questions: 1. What comments has he been on the receiving end of that he has chosen to omit (this BB alone shows there could be as many negative as positive). 2. What kind of person collects and catalogues compliments from other people all over the net? Quite an ego you got going there, Mick. You truly are a legend in your own mind.

 

[Nomad]

LOL Pretending all the quotes Mick posted were true and willfully ignoring all possible contexts they may have been given under...

Exactly. I thought one of Mick's posts regarding the Trade Towers and 911 was praiseworthy. So what does that prove here in this thread?

 

[MickinEngland]

Steve H - "Micks a narrow-minded unchristian unqualified know-nothing silly little man and work-shy racist layabout" [/I]Cymba - "Micks an unchristian aggressive liar showing no fruits of the spirit"Zeke - "Micks wrong wrong wrong and denies Gods word"Christian Trucker Pat - "Micks proud,arrogant,self-glorifying, uncharitable,offensive,lacking understanding and talking drivel"Linda -"Mick's a silly little Brit"Gloryboundd - "Mick's a senile liar and fool"Elbown - "Mick you put me off Christianity and i'm a Christian"SheriNuwine - "Mick you come across as a pervert,do you like cheeky little minxes who play with dollies?"Sunami -"Mick...the lazy workshy parasite that you are"Papdotcom to me - "You are one crazy ***"Faeshadow to me -"there are no words for the depth of ignorance and depravity that your mindset displays"PeterM quote - "Mick, your posts are so full of BS I await to here you mooing. You are obviously one paranoid individual who has delusions of grandeur, and these are the least of your problems.....You do realise you're a ****?" Veritasbellum to me - "..inane drivel, as the majority of your posts are......I pity you but I don't hate you......You put me off Christianity and you are definately a phoney Christian""Toolate quote to me - "Everybody thinks you are an idiot.....atheists don't hate you, just find you laughable........What crimes are you planning now? More race hate?"RomanticHorror to me - "you sick *******"CreationFallacy quote to me - "Your posts remind me of local radio stations. Same old boring **** over and over again"ZenAgain to me -"you wander off into drug induced metaphore.......I could tell by your posts that dementia was setting in"PaganSunflower to me -"you have not fooled those on this board with even a shred of intelligence"LanceT quote - "Mick try not to be a **** all your life, eh?"ZaZen quote - "Mick is like horse manure. You either stand in it or are sensible and avoid it."OldyOneCanardly to me - "you are just an ignorant, bigotted, anti- semite with fascist and racist tendencies ....nothing of intelligence to contribute to anything or anybody .....you big loser in life"Dm2473 quote to me - "The fact that I'm Jewish and you're a Christian has nothing to do with the fact that you are a boorish, small minded, shallow, nincompoop"Junoth quote to me - "What a sick and twisted mind you have! In fact the word "evil" springs to mind when I read your demented claptrap!"Nanacad - "Mick is a long time AOL message board ******"Donbain - "I've got Mick on filter for one very good reason, his intelligence is too low beneath mine to dignify his lewdness with an answer"Krpzd1 to me - "You really are a prize *** aren't you?"Sandragoggins (witch) -"I'm sure God has a special seat in hell for you Mick,.feel free to go ********* yourself"Reverend Eric Potts - "You disgust me Mick"A phoney 'Christian' Forum to me - "Your account has been disabled,Please do not make any attempt to participate further in any of our Communities"Angelakarma- "Mick the *****"Junoth quote-"Senile and paranoid Mick the compulsive liar, the convicted stalker of christianity"

 

[MickinEngland]

Alright everybody, the reason I posted a set of my fan mail and a set of my hate mail is so that you can see the tremendous warmth and decency of my fans, and compare it to the demonic yapping of my enemies.Which of those two sets of people do you want to spend eternity with?

 

[Polar]

So anyone who opposes your comments is "demonic". Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[MickinEngland]

"..they make a noise like a dog..but you Lord shall laugh at them and hold the heathen in derision" (Psalm 59:6-8)[/I] Right Lassie? "Wuff wuff!"

 

[Polar]

"But mate, I back up all my comments with scripture" -- Mick -- You mean like in your "Jesus protects a woman" thread? LOL Nice job. You've just made yourself a liar in front of everyone. Gosh, what does scripture say about that?

 

[MickinEngland]

[quote name='Polar;71407]"But mate' date=' I back up all my comments with scripture" -- Mick--------------------------------------- -- You mean like in your "Jesus protects a woman" thread?LOL Nice job. You've just made yourself a liar in front of everyone. Gosh, what does scripture say about that? [/QUOTE'] Ha ha ha, you fundies are obsessed with the exact written word rather than with the SPIRIT of the thing..Jesus showed us that the harsh Old Testament laws regarding adulteresses were forever trashed by him, and that's a fact no matter which words or pictures are used to illustrate it, whether you like it or not..

 

[Polar]

SPIRIT[/I] of the thing..

-- "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" ...Romans 10:17 Sorry to interject actual scripture to back up a position, but I felt at least one of us should.