The old nature and the new

[aspen]

Must God reveal his name to do this working in man? Again, I am not talking about walking as Christ, but about the first level of righteousness.

[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[sup][c][/sup] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. [sup]33[/sup] And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. [sup]34[/sup] Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [sup]35[/sup] for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; [sup]36[/sup] I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
[sup]37[/sup] “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? [sup]38[/sup] When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? [sup]39[/sup] Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ [sup]40[/sup] And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

These are not Christian. A Christian knows who his brother is, and knows the Lord, and knows to serve him. But these loved, and therefore fulfilled the law.

Yeah, I think we will need to agree to disagree on this point, Prentis. The disciples themselves didnt recognize Christ when He appeared to them after He rose from the dead. I believe Jesus was simply trying to teach a lesson about helping the poor, not a theological point about the mechanics of redemption and the Judgment.

 

[Prentis]

Well, here's another example.

The publican, he wasn't walking in the power of God, or doing the works of the Father. Yet it says he was justified because he recognized his sin. Yes, he confessed before God. But why did God accept his confession? Because of his contrite heart.

Also, then why is there two resurrections, and two judgments, what separates which goes at which? (The two are seen in Revelation)

I don't understand how what is below is the framing for a theological lesson, it seems more like prophecy to me:
[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats

Blessings!

 

[aspen]

Well, here's another example.

The publican, he wasn't walking in the power of God, or doing the works of the Father. Yet it says he was justified because he recognized his sin. Yes, he confessed before God. But why did God accept his confession? Because of his contrite heart.

Also, then why is there two resurrections, and two judgments, what separates which goes at which? (The two are seen in Revelation)

I don't understand how what is below is the framing for a theological lesson, it seems more like prophecy to me:
[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats

Blessings!

But how did he recognise his sin? I believe his ability to exercise his faith (suspend his belief about his own righteous) was promted by God. Without God he would never have been able to see past he own self centerness to recognise a higher standard. I agree completely that his response, a contrite heart, was necessary for fogiveness. Unlike many Christians here, I believe our participation is necessary! God is more like dentist than a surgeon - we need to practice good spiritual health

I believe the book of Rev. is a pure mystical vision - it is nearly impossible to decipher visions or make doctrinal claims based on them.

 

[Buzzfruit]

The new nature has you doing things to please God without understanding why, it holds you responsible to his commandments and his will. It can keep you at peace and help you improve your self through the struggles of everyday life.

You should understand why you do good.

Yes, but the word evil in Hebrew means 'sore' or 'trouble' (strongs), and the word good means 'welfare'. Man has known trouble and welfare, because of this. Man has chosen the hard path. This is akin to Paul saying that he has learned to be content with much and with little, with welfare, and with trouble. He considers all those things to be good, because they are used by God for his own good.

In choosing the tree of good and evil, WE choose what is good. Why? Because God said it was not good to eat of this tree, but we have decided (or been convinced by the enemy) that it is GOOD. So eating of this tree is choosing for ourselves what is right, and what is wrong. It does not give one understanding of right and wrong ACCORDING TO GOD. Rather it gives one to taste both welfare and trouble, AND to choose his own definition of good and evil, thus being in rebellion to God, rather than surrender.

The good and evil learned is NOT that of God.

But when Adam and Eve decided take of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they did not sin. It was after they ate then sin entered in.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

You should understand why you do good.

To please God ! can you see that there gramps ? The Lord works in mysterious ways you don't always know why you do what you are doing but in the end it is always perfect.

 

[Prentis]

So when revelation says there are two resurrections, is it not real? :huh:

 

[FHII]

If only you knew who the old man and the new man was.... You are making the New man put on the wineskins of the old man....

 

[Buzzfruit]

To please God ! can you see that there gramps ? The Lord works in mysterious ways you don't always know why you do what you are doing but in the end it is always perfect.

It should be deeper than that. I mean, why does God do good? The same reason for God doing good and loving to do good is the same reason you should as well. You see God did not make us just to please Him......it's more than that. God could create beings that are programmed by Him to serve Him if He wanted to. Angels are serving God and has been serving God long before He made human beings and they do it perfectly.

But we were made not just to be servants of God but to have a intimate relationship with as His children……the way Jesus is. We were made to share in God’s glory. We were made to rule with God in His kingdom…we will be kings in His kingdom. And His kingdom is our kingdom and we will do what God does….rule in love and make life a blessing for all those we rule over.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

It should be deeper than that. I mean, why does God do good? The same reason for God doing good and loving to do good is the same reason you should as well.

I don't know where you are trying to go with this, What do you consider good works of God ? Is it trials it it blessings and then you are already leaning on your own understanding ABOUT GOD.

 

[aspen]

So when revelation says there are two resurrections, is it not real? :huh:

I didn't say that, but it may not have happened as it reads. Have you ever tried to relay a dream you've had? It is difficult because we do not have the language to describe all of the thoughts. Mystical experiences, like dreams go beyond the bounds of time, sequence of events and language.

 

[FHII]

Well, see... That's the problem... People don't understand "good works" versus "works". God does good works. We do filthy works. Now we can do good works through God, but not works....

 

[aspen]

If only you knew who the old man and the new man was.... You are making the New man put on the wineskins of the old man....

It sounds like you are taunting us with your superior understanding....don't keep your light under a bushel!

 

[FHII]

It sounds like you are taunting us with your superior understanding....don't keep your light under a bushel!

I ain't taunting anyone...I'm just fed up with this board and the bickering. I'm tired of the accusations. I'll show you my light, but it ain't mine! I have no light to show you!

 

[aspen]

Well, see... That's the problem... People don't understand "good works" versus "works". God does good works. We do filthy works. Now we can do good works through God, but not works....

I think that is a pretty basic understanding of the concepts of good works and works. A more accurate understanding is our works apart from God are self centered and therefore, in vain. Good works are selfless - they are focused outward towards God and others, allowing us to be in communion with the Body of Christ. We were created to be in loving communion with God aand others, not (as promoted by our culture) stuck in a system the rewards radical individualism and hording of resources for private consumption.

I ain't taunting anyone...I'm just fed up with this board and the bickering. I'm tired of the accusations. I'll show you my light, but it ain't mine! I have no light to show you!

Take a break

 

[Buzzfruit]

I don't know where you are trying to go with this, What do you consider good works of God ? Is it trials it it blessings and then you are already leaning on your own understanding ABOUT GOD.

I am talking about how one lives, how we treat others....I am talking about kingdom living. Those who are citizens of the kingdom of God live a certain way that distinguish them from those who are not.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I am talking about how one lives, how we treat others....I am talking about kingdom living. Those who are citizens of the kingdom of God live a certain way that distinguish them from those who are not.

Alright then that's better.

 

[justaname]

Even when walking in the old nature, God left us a choice, giving us a conscience which allows us to be a law to ourselves. By this, we can learn to discern right and wrong. Within this, man may choose to love, to remain open, and to seek God. Man may still choose to do what is right in this, but he is weak.

The gospel is salvation to this person, because it gives them a way out, if they would believe. Our souls MUST be powered by something. When we only have the old nature, it leaves us no choice. But now we receive a new nature by which we may choose to walk.

[sup]6[/sup] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[sup]9[/sup] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [sup]10[/sup] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [sup]11[/sup] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8)

There is a wind of doctrine today which says the old nature is powerless to please God, which is true, but continues by saying we cannot be free from this while living in mortal bodies. This is a plot of the devil to make men believe the gospel requires no response other than 'sure God, I'll take that'. In other words, it promotes an attitude of taking our lives, rather than giving them, and says the gospel has no power now, whereas the aim of Christ and the apostles was to teach men to enter and walk in the power of the Spirit.

Sure God I'll take that and thanks are a great way to start with everything given by God.
With that said I love the post.

 

[Prentis]

I think that is a pretty basic understanding of the concepts of good works and works. A more accurate understanding is our works apart from God are self centered and therefore, in vain. Good works are selfless - they are focused outward towards God and others, allowing us to be in communion with the Body of Christ. We were created to be in loving communion with God aand others, not (as promoted by our culture) stuck in a system the rewards radical individualism and hording of resources for private consumption.



Take a break

Works! A good subject to bring in here... Good post on this, aspen, well said.

If we do things because of what they gain for us, this is a filthy work. A good work is done selflessly, which is why the sheep in Matt 25 do not even realize they did it. But both those things can be done outside of Christ. The publican and the good Samaritan are not Christians walking in the power of Christ!

But in Christ we are called to do perfect works, the works of the Father.

 

[Prentis]

Well, here's another example.

The publican, he wasn't walking in the power of God, or doing the works of the Father. Yet it says he was justified because he recognized his sin. Yes, he confessed before God. But why did God accept his confession? Because of his contrite heart.

Also, then why is there two resurrections, and two judgments, what separates which goes at which? (The two are seen in Revelation)

I don't understand how what is below is the framing for a theological lesson, it seems more like prophecy to me:
[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats

Blessings!

Here are some wise words from Wesley on the subject:

But it may be asked, if there be no true love of our neighbour but that which springs from the love of God, and if the love of God flows from no other fountain than faith in the Son of God, does it not follow that the whole heathen world is excluded from all possibility of salvation? Seeing they are cut off from faith for "faith cometh by hearing" and how shall they hear without a preacher? I answer St Paul's words spoken on another occasion are applicable to this; "What the law speaketh it speaketh to them that are under the law". Accordingly that sentence "He that believeth not shall be damned" is spoken of them to whom the gospel is preached Others it does not concern, and we are not required to determine any thing touching their final state. How it will please God the Judge of all to deal with them, we may leave to God himself. But this we know that he is not the God of the Christians only, but the God of the heathens also; that he is rich in mercy to all that call upon him according to the light they have, and that in every nation "he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted of him".

 

[bigdummy]

Actually, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't give man discernment for what is good and what is evil, to the opposite! Eating of this tree means to decide for ourselves what is good, and what is evil. What helps us is good, what doesn't is evil, but this is on a carnal sense. When WE decide what is good and what is evil, we come to conclude that the Lord's chastisement and hard training is evil, and his blessings good, when in reality all are good for us, if we see it!

The ability has been distorted by sin, because sin has brought death and made it weak. But man is not condemned for being weak. Man will be condemned IF he doesn't use whatever strength is available to him. Thus even in the old nature, by faith, man may please God to a degree.

After all, the OT saints did not have the new nature... And yet they pleased him!

It is a modern doctrine which says that somehow man has not even the power to choose. The publican is weak, but justified because he recognizes his own weakness and doesn't blame others for his failure, but sees it and is broken.

If we are to know the perfect will of God, we must surrender fully to him, and be just as he is. But to whatever level we have faith, to that level we must walk. Some have much grace (power) to be as he is, and some more. It is our faithfulness in this that reveals our hearts and characters, and by which we are judged.

I believe as you do that we all are given the ability to "Choose" but I believe that ability comes from God as Jesus states in John 6:44,65 We are all born in sin so our natural instinct is to sin, unless that nature is changed (and we are powerless to change it) we will continue to reject all that Christ has done and is constantly doing for us, for the human mind is so inferior to that of GOD that being carnal we can't, or have no desire to, accept His Grace, for we are told that "We are saved by Grace through Faith but this is not of our own, it is the gift of GOD lest anyone should boast" those of us who "choose" to accept that Grace will be given it "if we seek it with all our heart" we are being Sanctified but still have a long way to go....Ray