The Olivet Discourse

[Davy]

Some supposed miraculous birth of Isaac?

Well, (Rom. 9:8) is connected to (Rom 9:6-7). Context. And there the true Israelite is named. I have added nothing.

I thought you said no mention of Israelite was in those verses. Yet now you declare all believers are Israelites.

All believers are children of promise. Some are Israelites, some are not.

Stranger

One could indeed say all... believers on Christ are 'spiritual' Israelites, even those born of the seed of Israel. That because like Paul said, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the PROMISE are COUNTED for the seed.

When you start claiming some miraculous birth of Isaac being involved, you begin assigning the Promise only to the FLESH seed of Isaac, and that is not what Paul said in that Romans 9:8 verse.

 

[Stranger]

One could indeed say all... believers on Christ are 'spiritual' Israelites, even those born of the seed of Israel. That because like Paul said, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the PROMISE are COUNTED for the seed.

When you start claiming some miraculous birth of Isaac being involved, you begin assigning the Promise only to the FLESH seed of Isaac, and that is not what Paul said in that Romans 9:8 verse.

One could say anything. Whether right or wrong is another story. No, we are not spiritual Israel or Israelites.

(Gen. 18:10-14) "And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."

Isaac's birth was a miracle from God. It was a result of the promise. (Rom. 9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." Isaac was a child of promise long before he exercised any faith towards God. And, (Gal. 4:28), "Now we,brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Stranger

 

[Davy]

One could say anything. Whether right or wrong is another story. No, we are not spiritual Israel or Israelites.

(Gen. 18:10-14) "And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."

Isaac's birth was a miracle from God. It was a result of the promise. (Rom. 9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." Isaac was a child of promise long before he exercised any faith towards God. And, (Gal. 4:28), "Now we,brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Stranger

The Promise God gave Abraham was not about Isaac's faith. It was about Abraham's faith. Righteousness was accounted to Abraham because of it (Galatians 3 and Romans 4).

 

[Stranger]

The Promise God gave Abraham was not about Isaac's faith. It was about Abraham's faith. Righteousness was accounted to Abraham because of it (Galatians 3 and Romans 4).

So? The promise God gave to David that one of his family would always sit on the throne is not about Isaac's faith either. That has nothing to do with Isaac being a child of promise. Isaac was a miraculous gift from God. He was a child of promise as God promised to Abraham and Sarah that they would have this son, Isaac. And we, as Scriptures say, are just like Isaac was, a child of promise. (Gal. 4;28)

Stranger

 

[Davy]

So? The promise God gave to David that one of his family would always sit on the throne is not about Isaac's faith either. That has nothing to do with Isaac being a child of promise. Isaac was a miraculous gift from God. He was a child of promise as God promised to Abraham and Sarah that they would have this son, Isaac. And we, as Scriptures say, are just like Isaac was, a child of promise. (Gal. 4;28)

Stranger

No, the comparison Apostle Paul made about the Promise in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 was about Abraham, and the Promise being given first, before the law was given. That is ultimately what Paul was pointing to from Rom.9. regarding Isaac. It means those of Faith literally... are the children of the Promise, because even though the Promise was originally passed down from Abraham through God's Birthright, when Jesus came and fulfilled it on the cross, it became all believer's inheritance, regardless of race.

 

[Stranger]

No, the comparison Apostle Paul made about the Promise in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 was about Abraham, and the Promise being given first, before the law was given. That is ultimately what Paul was pointing to from Rom.9. regarding Isaac. It means those of Faith literally... are the children of the Promise, because even though the Promise was originally passed down from Abraham through God's Birthright, when Jesus came and fulfilled it on the cross, it became all believer's inheritance, regardless of race.

Yes Abraham was given promises. But we are talking here about a 'child of promise'. Which pertains to a different promise. Yes Abraham was promised a seed. But it will be the children of promise that are counted as the seed. (Rom. 9:8) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. " And what was the promise? (Rom. 9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." See, the promise was first. Isaac and his faith were later.

Isaac was a miraculous gift from God. A child of promise is one who is elect and chosen from God and born into this world. This is why the election of Jacob immediately follows. (Rom. 9:10-13)

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

No, we are not spiritual Israel or Israelites.

maybe not you, but this one can read bro

 

[Stranger]

maybe not you, but this one can read bro

Then show what you read, and prove your point.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Then show what you read, and prove your point.

Stranger

well, i would at least consider
5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
6It is not as though God's word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7Nor because they are Abraham's descendants are they all his children. On the contrary ...

but there is supporting Scripture for this also, in fact i didn't know this passage when i learned the principle
i wanna say i was led to the idea by some discourse of Christ's, can't think of which at the moment tho.
but obv i am not an Israelite, so

i'd be interested to hear how you support otherwise, i'm kind of surprised you take that position tbh?

 

[Stranger]

well, i would at least consider
5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
6It is not as though God's word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7Nor because they are Abraham's descendants are they all his children. On the contrary ...

but there is supporting Scripture for this also, in fact i didn't know this passage when i learned the principle
i wanna say i was led to the idea by some discourse of Christ's, can't think of which at the moment tho.
but obv i am not an Israelite, so

i'd be interested to hear how you support otherwise, i'm kind of surprised you take that position tbh?

What book do these verses belong to?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

What book do these verses belong to?

Stranger

ah, Rom 9, sorry.

you can highlight/search it for a quicker answer, but i forget

 

[Stranger]

ah, Rom 9, sorry.

you can highlight/search it for a quicker answer, but i forget

You forget. Forget what?

(Rom. 9:6) says "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel". That simply means not every Israelite is considered by God to be an Israelite. He must also be a child of promise as Isaac was. This doesn't mean that a Gentile believer becomes an Israelite. To be a true Israelite before God you must be of Israel and a child of promise.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

Yes Abraham was given promises. But we are talking here about a 'child of promise'. Which pertains to a different promise. Yes Abraham was promised a seed. But it will be the children of promise that are counted as the seed. (Rom. 9:8) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. " And what was the promise? (Rom. 9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." See, the promise was first. Isaac and his faith were later.

Isaac was a miraculous gift from God. A child of promise is one who is elect and chosen from God and born into this world. This is why the election of Jacob immediately follows. (Rom. 9:10-13)

Stranger

No, we are NOT... talking about an un-Biblical idea like "a child of promise".

Here is where Paul said, "children of the promise" meaning those of Faith like Abraham and thus 'counted for the seed':

Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

"... They which are the children of the flesh," - flesh born
"these are not the children of God" - no Salvation by flesh birth
"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" - only those who BELIEVE God's Promise are COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

That means, ONLY those of Faith are counted as the "children of God".

Did Isaac believe like his father Abraham? I'm almost sure of it, as shown in Genesis with God transferring the Birthrigh to Isaac. The same with Jacob, and with Joseph, and with Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. All the way down to Christ's first coming and thereafter, there has been a remnant of the literal seed of Israel that believed through God having elected them (Rom.11, the election of grace).

 

[n2thelight]

The promise was to Abraham, but not to all who were of Abraham. For in Isaac shall the seed be called. He is a child of promise from God and one who exercises the faith of Abraham. Though Jacob's name was changed to Israel doesn't mean all those of Israel are of Isaac. And in Isaac shall the seed be called. So you have those who are in Israel who are children of promise. And you have those who are in the Church who are children of promise.

Stranger

Christ is that seed

 

[n2thelight]

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Just because all of Israel does not accept the sacrifice that Christ gave them when He went to the cross, God did not fail them.

This is also requiring an understanding of Abraham's seed or children. After Sarah died, Abraham married another woman. Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. The promises of God to Abraham and Sarah went only to Isaac the only son of Sarah, and not to any of the other sons of Abraham.

Genesis 25:2 "And she [Keturah] bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

Abraham also had sons by the concubines which he had, and in all, Abraham had twelve more sons besides Isaac and Ishmael. These other sons were also patriarchs in Arabic nations, as well as other nations. So we see that all that are of Abraham are not necessarily of Israel, for Israel is only in reference to the sons of Jacob, who carried the blessing of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Paul is saying that these Israelites are the children of promise, and the real promise was Christ, and that Christ would be born of a virgin who would come from the tribes of Judah and Levi. It was that promise [Jesus Christ] that brought the grace that we now have.

Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Remember all those other children of Abraham that were born to Keturah, and the other concubines, well they are surely of the seed of Abraham, but only in Isaac shall God's seed be called. Why? Because the promise was to both Sarah and Abraham, and Isaac was the only son of Sarah. The promise was to come through Isaac and Isaac only.

Well what about the Gentiles, the other sons of Abraham that were not of Israel, the tribes of both houses? That is why Jesus came, for in the shed blood of Christ on the cross there is salvation to all mankind, who will believe on His name, and repent of their sins in Jesus name.

Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Again, In Isaac is the seed called. And the promise that all others are called is in Christ; Jesus Christ is that promise Seed.

Romans 9:9 "For this is the word of promise, "At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son."

This promise was given to Sarah even when she was ninety years old.

Romans 9:10 "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;"

romans9

 

[Stranger]

No, we are NOT... talking about an un-Biblical idea like "a child of promise".

Here is where Paul said, "children of the promise" meaning those of Faith like Abraham and thus 'counted for the seed':

Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

"... They which are the children of the flesh," - flesh born
"these are not the children of God" - no Salvation by flesh birth
"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" - only those who BELIEVE God's Promise are COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

That means, ONLY those of Faith are counted as the "children of God".

Did Isaac believe like his father Abraham? I'm almost sure of it, as shown in Genesis with God transferring the Birthrigh to Isaac. The same with Jacob, and with Joseph, and with Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. All the way down to Christ's first coming and thereafter, there has been a remnant of the literal seed of Israel that believed through God having elected them (Rom.11, the election of grace).

How is being a 'child of promise' un-Biblical when I showed you in the Bible where it comes from. It comes from the very verses you have been addressing. (Rom. 9:8) "...but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Gal. 4:28) "Now we brethren as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Yes, the children of promise will exercise the faith of Abraham, but they exercise it because they are children of promise. And of course only those of faith are children of God. But only the children of promise will exercise that faith.

Of course Isaac believed like Abraham. He was a child of promise. Remember? (Rom. 9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." Isaac was a child of promise before he exercised his faith.

Concerning the children of the flesh and those of promise, it says, (Rom. 9:8), "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." There is nothing here about believing or not believing. It is their origin which is being addressed. One is of the flesh. One is of the Spirit and promise of God.

This is why, which I have said several times and you refuse to acknowledge, the election of Jacob is immediately described and the rejection of Esau is also described. (Rom. 9:10-24)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Christ is that seed

Yes, Christ is that Seed. He is the basis for all the blessed seed from Abraham. He is not the only individual. (Gen. 22:17-18) "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed:..."

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

You forget. Forget what?

forget that many ppl don't right click

 

[bbyrd009]

This doesn't mean that a Gentile believer becomes an Israelite. To be a true Israelite before God you must be of Israel and a child of promise.

you can believe that if you like, but imo with all of the supporting Scripture, i just got to where i could not anymore.

 

[Davy]

How is being a 'child of promise' un-Biblical when I showed you in the Bible where it comes from. It comes from the very verses you have been addressing. (Rom. 9:8) "...but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Gal. 4:28) "Now we brethren as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Yes, the children of promise will exercise the faith of Abraham, but they exercise it because they are children of promise. And of course only those of faith are children of God. But only the children of promise will exercise that faith.

Of course Isaac believed like Abraham. He was a child of promise. Remember? (Rom. 9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." Isaac was a child of promise before he exercised his faith.

Concerning the children of the flesh and those of promise, it says, (Rom. 9:8), "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." There is nothing here about believing or not believing. It is their origin which is being addressed. One is of the flesh. One is of the Spirit and promise of God.

This is why, which I have said several times and you refuse to acknowledge, the election of Jacob is immediately described and the rejection of Esau is also described. (Rom. 9:10-24)

Stranger

n2thelight gave a very good exposition on that involving Isaac, and I have mentioned the Promise by Faith to Abraham being passed to Isaac and his seed with that Promise being about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

That applies equally to all... believers on Jesus Christ, regardless of birth.