The Olivet Discourse

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Stranger

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n2thelight gave a very good exposition on that involving Isaac, and I have mentioned the Promise by Faith to Abraham being passed to Isaac and his seed with that Promise being about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


That applies equally to all... believers on Jesus Christ, regardless of birth.

No he didn't. He is out to lunch as you are. Don't rely on others else you will find you will have to defend all that they say. You have no answer and continue to ignore the example of election following Paul's statement that the children of promise are counted for the seed. This shows that the children of promise are of promise before they are born.

And all believers follow that pattern as Paul said in (Gal. 4:28) "Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." This is contrary to what intothelight said, as he said in Isaac is the seed called then all others are called in Christ. Paul says we are as Isaac was, children of promise.

And nothing is told us here of Isaac having any faith to be a child of promise. The promise came before he was born. And we, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Stranger
 

Davy

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No he didn't. He is out to lunch as you are. Don't rely on others else you will find you will have to defend all that they say. You have no answer and continue to ignore the example of election following Paul's statement that the children of promise are counted for the seed. This shows that the children of promise are of promise before they are born.

And all believers follow that pattern as Paul said in (Gal. 4:28) "Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." This is contrary to what intothelight said, as he said in Isaac is the seed called then all others are called in Christ. Paul says we are as Isaac was, children of promise.

And nothing is told us here of Isaac having any faith to be a child of promise. The promise came before he was born. And we, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Stranger

The "children of the promise" involves those who BELIEVE because the Promise itself is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ by Faith, even as Apostle Paul showed in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 involving its first giving by God to Abraham, and Abraham believed, and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness.

You cannot just begin the Promise with Isaac like you're trying to do. As I have shown in an earlier post about Isaac's part in that Promise, it's involving God's Birthright promises also which were first to Abraham and involves the 'inheritance' part that Apostle Paul was also speaking of that went WITH The Gospel of Jesus Christ:

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

The blessing of Abraham is about those "promises" Paul speaks of in verse 16 that were inherited through a specific seed (in Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh involving God's Birthright blessings to Abraham). That in2thelight well covered, and I very much agree with him on that.


But the Promise by Faith, that is not the inheritance. The inheritance comes via that Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ. It is not of the law, which was given 430 years later.


Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

KJV

That redlined verse shows Apostle Paul's interpretation of just who Abraham's seed is per the Promise by Faith. And that... is Christian doctrine, not the leaven of Judaism.
 
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Davy

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Here it is again, this time from Romans 4:

Rom 4:9-13
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.


11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

KJV
 

Stranger

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The "children of the promise" involves those who BELIEVE because the Promise itself is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ by Faith, even as Apostle Paul showed in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 involving its first giving by God to Abraham, and Abraham believed, and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness.

You cannot just begin the Promise with Isaac like you're trying to do. As I have shown in an earlier post about Isaac's part in that Promise, it's involving God's Birthright promises also which were first to Abraham and involves the 'inheritance' part that Apostle Paul was also speaking of that went WITH The Gospel of Jesus Christ:

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

The blessing of Abraham is about those "promises" Paul speaks of in verse 16 that were inherited through a specific seed (in Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh involving God's Birthright blessings to Abraham). That in2thelight well covered, and I very much agree with him on that.


But the Promise by Faith, that is not the inheritance. The inheritance comes via that Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ. It is not of the law, which was given 430 years later.


Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

KJV

That redlined verse shows Apostle Paul's interpretation of just who Abraham's seed is per the Promise by Faith. And that... is Christian doctrine, not the leaven of Judaism.

There are different promises. Isaac was a child of promise because of the promise of God to Abraham and Sarah. God promised him and named him before he was born. He was elect, a miraculous child of promise.

Why does Paul give the example of Jacob being elect after stating this? (Rom. 9:10-20) Because he is showing that Jacob was a child of promise and Esau was a child of the flesh.

Stranger
 

Davy

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There are different promises. Isaac was a child of promise because of the promise of God to Abraham and Sarah. God promised him and named him before he was born. He was elect, a miraculous child of promise.

Why does Paul give the example of Jacob being elect after stating this? (Rom. 9:10-20) Because he is showing that Jacob was a child of promise and Esau was a child of the flesh.

Stranger

There you go with Isaac and the fleshy seed idea again. The Promise by Faith to Abraham is about belief on Jesus Christ, The Gospel.

The Gospel is included in God's Birthright promises to Abraham. There's the Birthright promises which went to Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and then Joseph's two sons, and that involved inheritance of the land, great national resources, ruling the gates of your enemies, plenty of corn and wine, etc. Those blessings are about the "promises" Paul mentioned:

Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

KJV

The Birthright "promises" is what Paul is talking about in that Gal.3:16 verse. That's what you keep dwelling upon. That's something not many understand from God's Word:

1 Chron 5:1-2
5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV



Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

KJV

Paul said God preached The Gospel to Abraham and he believed, and God counted to him as righteousness. That is about that "promise by faith of Jesus Christ". It is not by the law, because God gave it to Abraham by promise, even 430 years before the law. And because of Abraham's faith, all those of Faith on Jesus Christ have become the "children of Abraham", regardless of race. That's the end and the gist of it.
 

Stranger

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There you go with Isaac and the fleshy seed idea again. The Promise by Faith to Abraham is about belief on Jesus Christ, The Gospel.

The Gospel is included in God's Birthright promises to Abraham. There's the Birthright promises which went to Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and then Joseph's two sons, and that involved inheritance of the land, great national resources, ruling the gates of your enemies, plenty of corn and wine, etc. Those blessings are about the "promises" Paul mentioned:

Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

KJV

The Birthright "promises" is what Paul is talking about in that Gal.3:16 verse. That's what you keep dwelling upon. That's something not many understand from God's Word:

1 Chron 5:1-2
5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV



Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

KJV

Paul said God preached The Gospel to Abraham and he believed, and God counted to him as righteousness. That is about that "promise by faith of Jesus Christ". It is not by the law, because God gave it to Abraham by promise, even 430 years before the law. And because of Abraham's faith, all those of Faith on Jesus Christ have become the "children of Abraham", regardless of race. That's the end and the gist of it.

Isaac was not a child of the flesh, he was a child of promise. That is the point. Why don't you answer my question?

Stranger
 

Davy

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Isaac was not a child of the flesh, he was a child of promise. That is the point. Why don't you answer my question?

Stranger

If you mean by that, that Isaac believed The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then I would agree, because belief on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior is what the "promise by faith of Jesus Christ" is about (Gal.3:22).

And yes, Isaac's flesh born birthright did matter also involving the "promises", even as Apostle Paul also said:

Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
KJV


The reason for that of course was to distinguish the difference between Abraham's son Isaac, whom God did promise to Abraham and Sarah at the first, compared to Ishmael who was actually Abraham's firstborn son. That is involving God's Birthright blessings to Abraham which were transferred to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. In Romans 9, Paul is pointing to this birthright matter because Esau was actually the firstborn of Isaac, but God had already chosen Jacob even when Jacob was still in his mother's womb, and thus the birthright would be a point of contention between Jacob and Esau (as it still is today actually).
 

Stranger

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If you mean by that, that Isaac believed The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then I would agree, because belief on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior is what the "promise by faith of Jesus Christ" is about (Gal.3:22).

And yes, Isaac's flesh born birthright did matter also involving the "promises", even as Apostle Paul also said:

Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

KJV

The reason for that of course was to distinguish the difference between Abraham's son Isaac, whom God did promise to Abraham and Sarah at the first, compared to Ishmael who was actually Abraham's firstborn son. That is involving God's Birthright blessings to Abraham which were transferred to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. In Romans 9, Paul is pointing to this birthright matter because Esau was actually the firstborn of Isaac, but God had already chosen Jacob even when Jacob was still in his mother's womb, and thus the birthright would be a point of contention between Jacob and Esau (as it still is today actually).

There was no gospel of Jesus Christ at that time to believe. And Isaac didn't believe anything when God promised him to Abraham and Sarah because he wasn't born yet. That made him a child of promise.

Yes, and that makes Jacob a child of promise and Esau a child of the flesh. Before their birth this was decided also. (Rom. 9:11-13) "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Stranger
 

Davy

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There was no gospel of Jesus Christ at that time to believe. And Isaac didn't believe anything when God promised him to Abraham and Sarah because he wasn't born yet. That made him a child of promise.

Yes, and that makes Jacob a child of promise and Esau a child of the flesh. Before their birth this was decided also. (Rom. 9:11-13) "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Stranger

That's something a Judahizer would say, that there was "no gospel of Jesus Christ at that time to believe". That of course is a falsehood, as it would also make Apostle Paul a liar because of what he said below:

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

KJV

Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV



John 8:56-58
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."
57 Then said the Jews unto him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

KJV

Because you refuse to accept that the Promise by Faith which Abraham believed involves The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it means you haven't really understood the idea of 'faith' as a Christian.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV
 

Stranger

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That's something a Judahizer would say, that there was "no gospel of Jesus Christ at that time to believe". That of course is a falsehood, as it would also make Apostle Paul a liar because of what he said below:

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

KJV

Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV



John 8:56-58
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."
57 Then said the Jews unto him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

KJV

Because you refuse to accept that the Promise by Faith which Abraham believed involves The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it means you haven't really understood the idea of 'faith' as a Christian.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

I didn't say there was no Gospel. I said there was no Gospel of Jesus Christ. Abraham didn't believe on Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ had not yet appeared. The Gospel to Abraham was that he would have a son. That son would eventually terminate into Jesus Christ, but all Abraham believed was that he would have a son.

I don't refuse anything concerning the promises given to Abraham. I recognize also, however, the children of promise who are promised by God before they are even born. As (Rom. 9:6-20) clearly states.

Stranger
 

Davy

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I didn't say there was no Gospel. I said there was no Gospel of Jesus Christ.
....

You have an even bigger problem in your understanding then, because the ONLY Gospel there is is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And no, you can't go quoting phrases like "the gospel of the kingdom" and omit Jesus Christ from that either, since that's the same Gospel of Jesus Christ too, just specific to His future Kingdom.
 

Stranger

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You have an even bigger problem in your understanding then, because the ONLY Gospel there is is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And no, you can't go quoting phrases like "the gospel of the kingdom" and omit Jesus Christ from that either, since that's the same Gospel of Jesus Christ too, just specific to His future Kingdom.

Did you read what I said? I have no problem. You instead are ignoring what I say. Abraham did not accept Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. (Gen. 15:6) Where did I quote 'the gospel of the kingdom' to you? I think now you are just trying to change the subject.

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Davy

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Did you read what I said? I have no problem. You instead are ignoring what I say. Abraham did not accept Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. (Gen. 15:6) Where did I quote 'the gospel of the kingdom' to you? I think now you are just trying to change the subject.

Stranger

Jesus Christ appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18. Jesus was one of the "three men" that Abraham looked up and they were suddenly right next to him. Just because you don't find the name Jesus in the OT Books doesn't mean He didn't then exist (which is another Jewish failure to understand Scripture).

When the unbelieving Jews asked Jesus if He had seen Abraham, and Jesus said, "...Before Abraham was, I am", they wanted to stone Him because Jesus just pointed to Himself as The I AM, one of God's sacred names.

In Hebrews 7, we are shown Melchesidec was Jesus Christ that met Abraham and blessed him.
 

n2thelight

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There was no gospel of Jesus Christ at that time to believe. And Isaac didn't believe anything when God promised him to Abraham and Sarah because he wasn't born yet. That made him a child of promise.

Yes, and that makes Jacob a child of promise and Esau a child of the flesh. Before their birth this was decided also. (Rom. 9:11-13) "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Stranger

Hebrews 10:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me) to do Thy will, O God."

Everything that Jesus did and said while on earth, was written in the Old Testament, and that why He said over and over, "Haven't you read...", "It is written...", and so on. Every detail was written about Jesus' coming, how His birth would be and where. All parts of His life, and even to the words that the High Priest that caused His death at the time of the crucifixion. How can you not believe in Christ when God so perfectly outlined the coming Messiah that He would send.
 
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Stranger

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Jesus Christ appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18. Jesus was one of the "three men" that Abraham looked up and they were suddenly right next to him. Just because you don't find the name Jesus in the OT Books doesn't mean He didn't then exist (which is another Jewish failure to understand Scripture).

When the unbelieving Jews asked Jesus if He had seen Abraham, and Jesus said, "...Before Abraham was, I am", they wanted to stone Him because Jesus just pointed to Himself as The I AM, one of God's sacred names.

In Hebrews 7, we are shown Melchesidec was Jesus Christ that met Abraham and blessed him.

I didn't say Jesus did not exist then. I said, Abraham did not believe on Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Abraham believed God concerning the promise for him to have a son. In other words he did not believe what is called the New Testament Gospel.

Melchesidec was not Jesus Christ. He was representative of who Christ would be. A type of.

Stanger
 

Stranger

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Hebrews 10:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me) to do Thy will, O God."

Everything that Jesus did and said while on earth, was written in the Old Testament, and that why He said over and over, "Haven't you read...", "It is written...", and so on. Every detail was written about Jesus' coming, how His birth would be and where. All parts of His life, and even to the words that the High Priest that caused His death at the time of the crucifixion. How can you not believe in Christ when God so perfectly outlined the coming Messiah that He would send.

What stupid statements you make. Where did I say I didn't believe in Christ? Go back and reread.

Stranger
 

Davy

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Did you read what I said? I have no problem. You instead are ignoring what I say. Abraham did not accept Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. (Gen. 15:6) Where did I quote 'the gospel of the kingdom' to you? I think now you are just trying to change the subject.

Stranger

Like Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews in John 8...

John 8:56
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

KJV

Jesus appeared to Abraham in the Old Testament as the Angel of The Lord, and as Melchisedec. You also need to study Hebrews 11 more carefully, and especially note Jude that quotes Enoch, the 7th from Adam, who prophesied of Christ's second coming...

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
KJV


How could Enoch prophesy of Christ's SECOND COMING if he did not know about Jesus and The Gospel?

The OT Scripture evidence, especially with Abraham and what Paul said in Galatians 3, reveals that the Patriarchs DID... know about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, only that they did not live in the time when Jesus would come to die on the cross. David knew, because God gave him to prophesy about Christ's crucifixtion in Psalms 22. Isaiah knew, because God gave him to prophesy of Jesus in Isaiah 7 & 9, and of His crucifixion also in Isaiah 53. Zechariah knew, because he was given to prophesy of both Christ's first coming and His second coming in Zechariah 9, and about Jesus being pierced in Zechariah 12.

Even this is a New Testament declaration of what the OT prophets knew...

1 Peter 1:8-11
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in Whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
KJV
 
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n2thelight

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Judges 1:16: – 16 Now the children of the Kenite, Moses' father-in-law, went up from the City of Palms with the children of Judah into the Wilderness of Judah, which lies in the South near Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

Judges 1:16 "And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the People."

We have to stop here and get something straight in our mind. First of all, Moses' father-in-law is not a Kenite, a descendent of Cain [Kenite] but he and his family lived in the land where the Kenites were, and he held the position of "Jethro" or leader there. We can find Moses' father-in-law's name written in Numbers 10:29; "And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, "We are journeying unto the place of which the Lord said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the Lord hath spoken good concerning Israel."

Moses' father in law's name was "Raquel", and not Jethro, which is a title. He was a Midianite priest, and being a Midianite priest he had to be of the lineage Midian who was from the lineage of Abraham by Abraham's second wife. This is of the same bloodline as Abraham, and not of Cain, [the Kenites]. Abraham took Keturah to be his second wife after Sarah had died, and Isaac and Ishmael had left Abraham's household.

Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah."

Genesis 25:2 "And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

The "Midianites" believed in the one true God, the same as Abraham. So we see that the promises that were given to the family of Raquel, the father in law of Moses, were given by God as a covenant to Raquel and his family, that they would live and dwell with the Children of Israel, not only in the wilderness, but would have their inheritance in the promised land also. Though this family is not Kenite by lineage, they are Kenite by the fact that they lived in the land where the Kenites dwelt.

A Chinese person can move to the United States and become an American. It doesn't change his lineage, but his identity as to where he lives. When a Kenite [the offspring of Cain from the garden of Eden] moved to the land of Judah, by lineage he is still a Kenite in tradition and custom, and in his skin color, even though he then becomes a Jew by the identity of his residence. Requel had to be full blooded Midianite to be a Midianite priest, and it was for this reason that Requel's daughters had to wait until after all of the Kenites had their fill of water, before they could fill their water pots to water their sheep.

judges1