The Only Problem With The Trinity

[theefaith]

If you can not truly perceive the Trinity you are not truly saved in fact. because the Holy spirit you do not posses in fact, because one is carnal.
The word ? inspired ? well one may claim such the working of God, but it may not be truly because one has not a handle on such from the Holy Spirit to truly understand what such is truly all about.

Now one may have a bit of a handle on a subject word in the Bible but so does the Devil in fact.

Now any idiot can say, I don't understand the Trinity ? I did not understand it once.

I know a lot of Religious people who waffle on about the word ? but boy are they off with the pixies at times, some of what they may claim maybe right and some times, I have even thought that they knew the subject but then I found out that they do not know the subject much truly at all, because the main problem with their thought on a subject is that they have only been taught that line ? and not educated one such but only indoctrinated on the subject. not to mention such is coming totally truly from a worldly works point of view in reality.

Did I come to understand the Trinity by myself, No ! God inspired me on the subject in fact, it was not of my workings. as it's does not come from a worldly position. The whole thing is spiritual. and not to mention a true Christian does not take his Q from man, but God through Christ Jesus truly only as he give Light.
The whole religious thing just has ones wheels spinning and that's why the Jews needed a Lord and Saviour. not to mention the only Jews who passed over were loyal to Moses and worthy of Israel, the rest were deceived by Men who knew the words but knew not God nor were they worthy of God, in fact they were murders from the beginning who were like them, that's the god and gods that they were following, Jesus pointed such out. Nathaniel was not of them, Stephen called them out on such and full on exposed the degenerate fools.

Remember Paul he knew all the words ? but to no avail. until what ? Then it all came together. he was killing the wrong people ! he was lead astray, he had the words ? but he needed just one thing God !
Man can not read the Bible without the Holy Spirit to guide one at all, because one will not pick up what is essential. now the one who only has the words of the Bible is somewhat lost and becomes religious, but can know some truth's but they do not know the whole truth. because they are lacking in the Holy Spirit, may think or claim that they are born again, but they truly are lacking in the gift of the Holy spirit.

the divinity of Christ and the trinity are Christian doctrines
Cannot be Christians without them!
Eph 4:5 one faith
Jude 1:3 thee faith

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

All this that you said above is just you talking about how councils of men and what they say is more important to you than the Word of God that God inspired men to write down.
Someone who doesn't have God's Holy Spirit would be someone who doesn't go by Gods Word but instead would say something that God didn't say. Like when the serpent said to Eve she wouldn't die if she ate the forbidden fruit. I can see that the serpent convinced Eve to listen to him rather than to listen to what God said. Because she didn't listen to what God said she lost her life.
Today everything that we need to know about the True God and how to be the person who loves God first and then his fellow man, and how to get eternal life has been written in a book, called the Bible. We don't need to look anywhere else. The Trinity Doctrine isn't in the scriptures. There's nothing in the scriptures that says that God is three person's in a godhead. There's nothing in the scriptures that show or teach that Jesus is God or that he's equal to God. In fact the scriptures show the Only Begotten Son of God to be a part of creation. The fact he's called, "the firstborn of creation" (Colossians 1:15) and, "the beginning of creation" (Revelation 3:14) is proof of that. Why would God inspire someone to write down that his Only Begotten Son is the firstborn of creation. The scriptures themselves show consistently when talking of living creatures, whether they're animals or human, what is said to be "firstborn of" is part of that group which is firstborn.

No not at all councils of men, but the Holy Spirit.
As for the Bible well it takes the Holy Spirit to understand the words their off, if it was not so, then all who read it would be clear to them.
But the Bible was not written for Carnal people to understand.
Not to mention that many a Priest etc is a curse because they are just like the Jews in the Vineyard story.
Look at all the Priest nowadays who support Gays etc, they are all going to Hell ! they can not got to Heaven because they are not worthy of the Kingdom of God in fact and their is a list of who can not enter the Kingdom of God in the Bible and it's a fact ! do you know why they can not enter, well it's because they are of this world and they love the darkness, because they are a curse.

 

[Christ4Me]

~The Word - What does that look to do you?

Have you ever wondered how man was ever made after His image and after His likeness? Or better, yet why the request to make man was after our image and after our likeness?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Or how about how God judges the people at the tower of Babel?

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Look how the Lord commands men in how to judge any one not by one person, but by 2 or 3 witnesses.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Look at how He commands two or three witnesses to establish a matter.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Is it the same for the N.T.?

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Now if God was a One Person God, would He not be a hypocrite for establishing any word in creation or for judging any one?

Does this not testify indirectly of how there are 3 Witnesses within the One God for His word to be true?

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

So how can a One Person God testify of Himself without being a hypocrite?

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Is that why God the Father spoke from Heaven had His testimony added with the Holy Spirit's lighting on the Son like a dove?

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Was Jesus referring to this prophesy below to fulfill all righteousness by?

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

The Lord God Our Redeemer is speaking and yet the Lord God and His Spirit sent Him?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Like you, a lot of believers have a hard time wrapping their heads around the Triune God for why they took verse 7 out of scripture, but when they did that, verse 9 falls flat because how can the One Person God's witness be greater than the many men's witness?

Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?

P.S. I do not agree with Jack Chick's condemnation of Catholics going to hell since they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead is why they are saved, but are at risk of being left behind when the Bridegroom comes for works that deny Him.

However, this web page is from an author named David W. Daniels and he shares knowledge from his book regarding how and why 1 John 5:7 is originally scripture as he does list extrabiblical sources in debates about the Trinity & the deity of Christ starting back in 200 A.D. referring to the Three Witnesses in scripture, thus proving 1 John 5:7 was and is originally scripture.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

The only problem with the Trinity is that people who are carnal can not understand it. for you need the Holy Spirit to understand such.
The 3 are in one the same identity.
But the 3 are separate identity's themselves.
The Father The Son and the Holy Spirit are all one. One well spring !
The 3 do not separate for they are the same well spring.
They are all one in the same.
Now without the Holy sprit one can not fathom the other two and that means such a one does not fathom the 3 in one.
Now the Son proceeds from the Father, I am sure everyone knows that fact.
But the Son came for us as a Man but he is the Holy Spirit also.
Now the Holy Spirit came when Jesus went back to Heaven.
So did Christ Jesus ever leave us, No ! and he said so.
Who is the comforter ? you all.

Riddle me this, Batman: if the trinity is biblical, then why is it that Paul never mentioned the Holy Spirit when he greeted the Father and Christ at the beginning of his letters? Surely if the Holy Spirit was to be addressed as a God Being, Paul would have mentioned it and made the new converts able to understand it. Go through all of the greetings in his letters, and there isn't a single mention of the Holy Spirit being a God Being. I highly doubt an apostle of God would've disrespected the Holy Spirit like that if it were indeed a God Being.

Another thing i haven't quite seen a trinitarian give a straightforward answer to is that if the trinity was indeed biblical, then why is it that no apostle or prophet has ever addressed that? After all, trinitarians insist that unless someone believes in this doctrine, they aren't saved. So why is that the NT never quotes from or authoritatively teaches from an OT text that supposedly supports it?

If it was truly biblical and taught in the OT, then why is it that Jesus Himself doesn't refer to anything resembling a trinity? He came to clear everything up concerning the nature of God, and yet a "divine" trinity has never once came up as a topic of discussion. So why is it that the Son of God Himself never mentions anything about a trinity or that it is absolutely necessary to believe this doctrine, yet trinitarians insist that people must believe it?

Can trinitarians admit it to themselves that it is entirely possible that the trinity doctrine is to them what physical circumcision was to the Orthodox Jews in the 1st century when they insisted a person had to be physically circumcised to be considered saved? Is it entirely possible that trinitarians are the Pharisees of Christianity?

If God wanted people to know who He is, it stands to reason He would lay it out in scripture so people can have a crystal clear understanding as to how it works. And yet, there is absolutely nothing that shows this is the case. Why is it that trinitarians can't answer what are perfectly understandable questions and resort to saying "you have to just accept it on faith, and you aren't saved if you can't do that"? Paul told the Thessalonians that God expects Christians to be able to prove all things, which would also include whether or not He is a trinity. That doesn't sound like the kind of thing God would want people to leave up to speculation.

even with the HS there are Christian mysteries

Yeah, that doesn't square at all with Jesus saying the Holy Spirit would guide Christians into all truth.

 

[Wrangler]

If God wanted people to know who He is, it stands to reason He would lay it out in scripture so people can have a crystal clear understanding as to how it works.

Great post! God did lay out perfectly who he - singular - is; it’s just that the entire book is written by monotheist Jews (except possibly Luke) who reject the trinity to this day, which explicitly goes against the trinity 1,000’s of times.

 

[face2face]

Great post! God did lay out perfectly who he - singular - is; it’s just that the entire book is written by monotheist Jews (except possibly Luke) who reject the trinity to this day, which explicitly goes against the trinity 1,000’s of times.

This is why I hold a per-credal faith...the original Apostles said there would be a falling away, and there was.

 

[quietthinker]

The Only Problem With The Trinity
is the one in a persons head.

 

[MatthewG]

The word trinity was never used in the Hebrew version, or the Greek version, or any new Bible that has came out today.

The trinity is a belief system that God - is one in three persons. From what has been taught, it is just a confusing conversation to have anyway, If not rather boring, because there are other topics in the Bible to talk about.

Believing in this won’t have an effect on your already held and had relationship with God. I do believe what the scripture says though, there is One God, the Father and one mediator between man and God the Lord Jesus Christ. (Though I do also view God and his Word being together - the Lord God Almighty).

That the Godhead is simply the notions of God, who is fire and spirit, Gods Word: that became Jesus, and Gods Holy Spirit that hovered above the waters at the creation of earth.

In love, peace, mercy, kindness, patience,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[farouk]

@MatthewG The word Trinity refers to God in Three Persons: a truth deeply present in Scripture, especially in the NT; a lot of refs. could be given.

 

[MatthewG]

@farouk,

Thank you for commenting, as I stated in post 328, and in the original post.

There is a problem with trinity (if you believe it that is between you and God).
I don’t see God as three human beings or persons.
It is always good to hear from you.

In love, peace, kindness, of Christ,
Matthew Gallagher.

 

[Davy]

~

The only understanding that has been made know to me about the trinity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The Word was with God in the Beginning.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.

Notice Word: Word was with with, and was God and was at the Beginning.

Now the Word: maybe it was in a the form of a shape; all I know is that have no idea what the Word looks like of God and have no ability to see it; Yes the Word was made flesh. This scripture however is still talking about in the Beginning; was the Word with, and was God.

To me the was God is this: the Word of God was a part of God. When God spoke; the Word then had the power to create. So God spoke through the Word -> in which Created the light, heavens, and earth, the Word was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God, was apart of God (as the mouthpiece), and was with God in the beginning.

The Word - What does that look to do you?

~~~

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

~~~

The Father : God ; our Father - Jesus Christ's Father, : God is a spirit ~ Not flesh and bones.

~~~

By and through scripture you can understand these concepts. Though many people like to argue against trinity and whatever, but no one will ever be 100% on it ever period in this lifetime.

My conclusions is that I just do not see 3 people in 1 God. Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father are completely worthy of trusting and placing hope in.

Then you don't believe the Old Testament Scripture where The Father spoke to The Son (Psalms 110), nor the fact that Jesus ascended to the right hand of The Father's Throne in Heaven as written in The New Testament (Ephesians 1:19-20).

 

[MatthewG]

Would you like to know what I believe, Davy?

 

[Happy Trails]

~

The only understanding that has been made know to me about the trinity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The Word was with God in the Beginning.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.

Notice Word: Word was with with, and was God and was at the Beginning.

Now the Word: maybe it was in a the form of a shape; all I know is that have no idea what the Word looks like of God and have no ability to see it; Yes the Word was made flesh. This scripture however is still talking about in the Beginning; was the Word with, and was God.

To me the was God is this: the Word of God was a part of God. When God spoke; the Word then had the power to create. So God spoke through the Word -> in which Created the light, heavens, and earth, the Word was with God in the beginning.

The Word was with God, was apart of God (as the mouthpiece), and was with God in the beginning.

The Word - What does that look to do you?

~~~

The Holy Spirit - is not a person in my opinion because what does a spirit look like? Can you describe it to me exactly?

~~~

The Father : God ; our Father - Jesus Christ's Father, : God is a spirit ~ Not flesh and bones.

~~~

By and through scripture you can understand these concepts. Though many people like to argue against trinity and whatever, but no one will ever be 100% on it ever period in this lifetime.

My conclusions is that I just do not see 3 people in 1 God. Though do believe that God, the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit all agree and testify as one about the truth of the Heavenly Realms. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, the Lord, Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father are completely worthy of trusting and placing hope in.

That is a logical approach.

I see these hints as well:

Deuteronomy 6:4
YHVH is ONE.

Psalms 99:9
YHVH is Holy.

John 4:24
YHVH is a Spirit.

Colossians 1:13-15
Jesus is the image of YHVH.

======
YHVH, the Father, is the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is what he looks like.

The trinity idea has some very dubious origins. I'm open to the idea, perhaps. But, I don't see Scripture truly supporting it.

There are loads of examples like this:
Genesis 15:1
If Jesus is the Word of YHVH, then Jesus appeared in a vision to Abram. He was there from the beginning, right?

Here's a little search:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "word of the lord"

I think a person might replace every "word of the LORD" with "Jesus" and likely be right on.

 

[face2face]

I think a person might replace every "word of the LORD" with "Jesus" and likely be right on.

Yes, Jesus certainly was the perfect manifestation of the Father but not God Himself. Hebrews 1:3 Jesus cannot be said to be in the image of something he already is. It's one of those impossibilities.

 

[Happy Trails]

Jesus is YHVH's image.

Your physical body is your image.

Is your physical body you?

 

[face2face]

Jesus is YHVH's image.

Your physical body is your image.

Is your physical body you?

Correct, I cannot be in the image of my Father and be my Father. If the writer wanted to convey trinitarian doctrine he would not make Jesus to be like God but actual God. Stating he is the representation of God's glory and showing Jesus "became" cannot imply he always was those things. It's also an impossibility to inherit a name, position and power if it is already yours. Jesus was a created being whose life had a start and an end but now lives for ever more. Like a firstborn. The trinity does not stand the test of Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes, Jesus certainly was the perfect manifestation of the Father but not God Himself. Hebrews 1:3 Jesus cannot be said to be in the image of something he already is. It's one of those impossibilities.

The same with the impossibility of sitting at your own right hand.

 

[Wrangler]

Stating he is the representation of God's glory and showing Jesus "became" cannot imply he always was those things.

Wow! Great point. I look forward to a thoughtful rebuttal from Happy Trails that does not invoke a fallacy, like our mind is too small to comprehend it.

 

[Wrangler]

I think a person might replace every "word of the LORD" with "Jesus" and likely be right on.

Scripture says a voice said, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased." Who was speaking these words about Jesus?

 

[Happy Trails]

Scripture says a voice said, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased." Who was speaking these words about Jesus?

Obviously, His Father.

Otherwise, "this is my son," would be a lie.