The Only Problem With The Trinity

[amadeus]

Fundamentalists are in spiritual anarchy and spiritual blindness!

There you go generalizing again making it sound like you know the hearts of every one of them! Would even an apostle know that much so as to make such a statement?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit - God in Three Persons - are deeply present in the New Testament

John's Gospel, esp. ch.s 13 - 17; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

There is no doubt that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are featured very much throughout the Christian scriptures, but as Jesus commanded at Matthew 28:19-20...
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NASB)

When it says “in the name of”.....what does that actually mean?
If a police officer told you to “stop in the name of the Law” what would he be telling you?
Isn’t it that he has authority to act on behalf of the one who made the law and is fulfilling his appointed role to uphold it?

Being baptized “ in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” means understanding the role that all three have played, enabling a person to reach that goal of Christian dedication. It means recognising that the Father sent his son to teach us all the things that God now required of Christians under a “new covenant”.

After a full three and half years of instructing his apostles and disciples, he gave up his life. And after his resurrection, he stayed for 40 days to strengthen them for the difficult times ahead, giving them this parting command before returning to heaven. (Matthew 24:14)

God’s Holy Spirit backed up that new arrangement by a demonstration of things that the incoming Kingdom of God would bring to redeemed humankind.....it “filled” people, healed them, fed them, and showed them that what Jesus taught about the future blessings of the Kingdom would become a reality...not in heaven but right here on this earth where God put us in the first place.

Revelation 21:3-4 confirms this....
“And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (ESV)

God has never changed his purpose for mankind and this earth. What he starts....he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit have been working towards this goal all along.
Jesus is the “Logos” who has been “with” the Father from “the beginning” and the Holy Spirit was used by God in creation....in bringing the flood of Noah’s day....and when guiding the Jews through the wilderness after their dramatic exit from Egypt. Throughout his ministry Jesus used God’s Holy Spirit to show that he was the Messiah. He promised his apostles that it would be given, and stay with them left after his ascension. It remained throughout the apostolic period.
The power of God’s spirit encouraged many to accept Christ as Messiah, when the Jewish leaders were calling him a fraud.

There is no trinity in the other Abrahamic religions.....neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe in a triune God. That was an invention of Christendom...or should I say, an adoption, since triune gods were seen in paganism.

If you really know your Bible, instead of Christendom’s doctrines, you will see no possibility of a triune godhead....a three headed god simply isn’t there. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Fundamentalists are in spiritual anarchy and spiritual blindness!

Many it is true are in spiritual blindness....but no true believer will stay blind....this is a blindness created by God’s enemy...
“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - ESV).....and only God’s spirit can “cure” it.

Opening the eyes of the spiritually blind is what Jesus did by his spirit-inspired teachings, but today people have more access to the Bible than at any other time in history. I have made it my life’s work to study it deeply and to see the bigger picture instead of getting bogged down in the nit picking details.

There is only one truth and no one will find it without God’s help.
Jesus said....in John 6:44, 65...
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . . . . “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (ESV)

Are these the words of a trinitarian God? You need the Father’s permission to come to the Son.
No one can come to Jesus without God’s invitation. So to whom does he grant this permission? Those who teach lies about him? I hardly think so.....but I can understand your frustration.....there are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear.....
You can fight the truth, but you can’t change it....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I forgot that this thread even existed.

LOL..isn’t resurrection a wonderful thing?

 

[farouk]

There is no doubt that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are featured very much throughout the Christian scriptures, but as Jesus commanded at Matthew 28:19-20...
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NASB)

When it says “in the name of”.....what does that actually mean?
If a police officer told you to “stop in the name of the Law” what would he be telling you?
Isn’t it that he has authority to act on behalf of the one who made the law and is fulfilling his appointed role to uphold it?

Being baptized “ in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” means understanding the role that all three have played, enabling a person to reach that goal of Christian dedication. It means recognising that the Father sent his son to teach us all the things that God now required of Christians under a “new covenant”.

After a full three and half years of instructing his apostles and disciples, he gave up his life. And after his resurrection, he stayed for 40 days to strengthen them for the difficult times ahead, giving them this parting command before returning to heaven. (Matthew 24:14)

God’s Holy Spirit backed up that new arrangement by a demonstration of things that the incoming Kingdom of God would bring to redeemed humankind.....it “filled” people, healed them, fed them, and showed them that what Jesus taught about the future blessings of the Kingdom would become a reality...not in heaven but right here on this earth where God put us in the first place.

Revelation 21:3-4 confirms this....
“And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (ESV)

God has never changed his purpose for mankind and this earth. What he starts....he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit have been working towards this goal all along.
Jesus is the “Logos” who has been “with” the Father from “the beginning” and the Holy Spirit was used by God in creation....in bringing the flood of Noah’s day....and when guiding the Jews through the wilderness after their dramatic exit from Egypt. Throughout his ministry Jesus used God’s Holy Spirit to show that he was the Messiah. He promised his apostles that it would be given, and stay with them left after his ascension. It remained throughout the apostolic period.
The power of God’s spirit encouraged many to accept Christ as Messiah, when the Jewish leaders were calling him a fraud.

There is no trinity in the other Abrahamic religions.....neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe in a triune God. That was an invention of Christendom...or should I say, an adoption, since triune gods were seen in paganism.

If you really know your Bible, instead of Christendom’s doctrines, you will see no possibility of a triune godhead....a three headed god simply isn’t there. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

God in Three Persons - Three Persons in one God - are so definitely there in the NT, that speculation as to other alternatives is not an option in my reading of the NT.

 

[Raccoon1010]

God in Three Persons - Three Persons in one God - are so definitely there in the NT, that speculation as to other alternatives is not an option in my reading of the NT.

Agreed, they are separate and distinct and are one, Jesus prayed to his Father, and his Father spoke when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus during his baptism. Clearly distinct, and we are taught that they are one as God. Each are God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Clearly distinct, and we are taught that they are one as God. Each are God.

I agree that each are separate and distinct, and I can find "God the Father" in the Bible, but can you please tell me where I will find "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" in any passage of scripture?

If the Jews did not believe in a triune God and they charged Jesus with blasphemy for even suggesting that he was "God's son", then how is it possible that Jesus as a devout Jew, could have claimed such a thing? If he'd said he was God, imagine the outcry!? They would have stoned him to death on the spot!

 

[Raccoon1010]

I agree that each are separate and distinct, and I can find "God the Father" in the Bible, but can you please tell me where I will find "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" in any passage of scripture?

If the Jews did not believe in a triune God and they charged Jesus with blasphemy for even suggesting that he was "God's son", then how is it possible that Jesus as a devout Jew, could have claimed such a thing? If he'd said he was God, imagine the outcry!? They would have stoned him to death on the spot!

There are many passages that refer to Jesus the Word as God. Jesus is called out as messiah and God in Isaiah and the Spirit of God is proclaimed as God also:

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

[theefaith]

Thank you.


Since “eternal” means without beginning or end, I will have to answer no. The only eternal Being in existence is the Father, the Creator of all things, and the Begetter of of his firstborn son. Is Jesus now immortal? Yes, I believe that he was rewarded for his faithful course. That simply means that he cannot die, not that he ever was “eternal”.

(Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.)

is Jesus the savior?


It is God himself who identifies the relationship of Father and Son. The being who became Jesus Christ was a “son of God” before his human birth. If they were equal parts of a triune godhead, then why depict themselves this way? The Father has a personal name (YHWH, Yahweh or Jehovah) and the Son also has a personal name (Jesus) but the holy spirit does not have a personal name because it is not a person. It is God’s spirit in that it emanates from him as the power he uses to accomplish his will.


OK.....at Eph 4:1-6 the apostle Paul says....
“Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (NASB)

I like to see verses in context. The “one body and one spirit” is expressing the unity of the body of Christ’s disciples. Their “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” meant that all adhered to the same teachings. But their “one God and Father” was not Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:3 was an admonition for the disciples to “put up a hard fight for the faith” that was “delivered to the Holy Ones”. Why was there need to “put up a hard fight”? Because dark forces were against them both from outside and also within, they needed to stay on track and not be deterred or overreached by those forces.
We know from history however, that they did not fight hard enough, and true to the apostles’ words, the corruption from within was what took the biggest toll on the Christian Faith. What had happened to the Jewish faith, would also happen to the Christian faith, (because they had the same enemy) men would teach “commands of men as doctrines”, making their faith “in vain”. (Matthew 15:7-9; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; Acts 20:30)


The teachings that Jesus left for his followers were going to be replaced by the “weeds” sown by the devil. (Matthew 13:24-30) What became known as “Christianity” by the world from the second century onward, was a steady decline into outright apostasy. The “wheat and the weeds” would grow together in the world right up until the end times. And people would have to make a choice between them. Jesus indicated that the majority would choose the wrong path, for the wrong reasons. (Matthew 7:13-14) How can anyone excuse the despicable history of the Roman Catholic Church?

On investigation, I could find precious little of what Jesus taught, in the Catholic Faith. But if it’s been ingrained since childhood, being taught blind obedience to the church, how would anyone know how far they had strayed off the path?
The truth is there for anyone who really wants to know.


On the contrary, I believe that making Jesus into something he never was, and never claimed to be, is what disqualifies one from being a Christian.
John 17:1-5.....
“Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.” (NASB)

All things come from the Father to the son....so where is the equality? God gave his son a commission and also gave him authority to carry it out because the son is not God. He is a servant of his Father. (Acts 3:13-15)

(Christ has both a human and divine nature, he humbled himself being subject to the father in his human nature)

So, the scriptures tell a very different story to the RC church......
Nowhere in the Bible will you find any of the following as teachings for Christians....
(The Bible alone cannot be a Christian’s rule of faith, the Bible was not approved by the church until 381 and even after the printing press books were rare and expensive and most people were illiterate, the rule of faith according to the Bible is Jesus Christ Jn 1:16-17 and Jn 14:6 and this authority exercised by the apostles Matt 16:18 18:18 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 2:42)


A trinity.
The veneration of Mary, who was never called the “mother of God”.
(Lk 1:43)
The offering of prayers to Mary or the saints as intercessors. (Rev. 5:8)
The use of images in worship. (Ex 25:18)
Infant baptism. (Acts 2:38-39)
A hellfire of eternal torment. (Same as next one)
Immortality of the human soul. (Lk 16:25-26)
Purgatory. (1 cor 3:15)
Indulgences. (Jn 1:16-17)
An earthly priesthood with identifying garb.(Heb 7:17)
A Pope as head of the church. (Isa 22:21-22 Matt 16:18)
Liturgy. (1 cor 11:24 Jn 6)
Repetitive prayers. (Repeating prayers is not forbidden, only repeating within a single prayer, Christ prayed three times let this cup pass from me, and praying the scripture cannot be vain, remember He said vain repetitious prayer,
Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!

Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!)

Holy water. (Remembrance of our justification in baptism)

Offering of incense. (Heb 9:1-5)

The celebration of disguised pagan festivals.....(no pagan celebrations)

If you would like to start a thread to explore these things I will be more than happy to discuss them with you, just using the Bible.

I can see that you are very sincere, but I believe that the power of the church, exercised even over world rulers for many centuries, has virtually destroyed the Christian Faith with its false teachings. Christendom is the result....hopelessly fractured and eternally bickering over who is right. That is not the Christian Faith that Jesus taught. (1 Cor 1:10)

The “fruitage” of the church has identified it, not as a work of Christ, but of his enemy.
Christendom’s hands are filled with blood...always eager to support the wars of their nations even if it meant killing their own “brothers” in the faith. (Isaiah 1:15; 1 John 4:20-21)

There is a bigger picture....if you want to see it.

Christ is a king the church is his kingdom with power and authority and a visible earthy ruler and universal
The whole universe is subject to Christ the king and his ministers in his absence
Isa 22:21-22 matt 16:18 Lk 10:16 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 13:20
Like Joseph under pharaoh they were subject to him even his own brothers and father

 

[theefaith]

Mother of God Lk 1:43

Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary
Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus) Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun. Immaculate purity

Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30

Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
Lk 1:31-34

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Behold thy mother!

What does Behold in scripture mean?

A marvelous thing!
A miraculous action!
A wonder!
An awe inspiring declaration!

Behold thy mother!

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.

Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!

What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He gave Mary to be the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.




Blessing from God thru Mary!

All graces come to us they Mary, from God by the merits (blood) of Christ!
Jn 1:16
Of His fullness we have all received, grace for grace!

Salvation Lk 1:30
Consented to our salvation Lk 1:38
Mother of Christ Matt 1:16
Mother of the word Jn 1:1
Mother of our savior Matt 1:21
Mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
Our mother Jn 19:26-27

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit!

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

John sanctified in the womb!

Lk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Lk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Zacharias is filled with the Holy Spirit and prophecy!

Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

The wedding couple have wine and not shame!

Jn 2: 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The disciples are supplied with faith, hope, and charity!

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

All these blessings from God because of Mary most holy!

Mother of Divine Grace!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The throne of Grace is the throne of Mary the ever Virgin mother of God!

We come boldly to this throne cause Mary is our mother and advocate!

Mary is the storehouse of divine graces!

Lk 1:28
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

All graces come from the merits of Christ, from His passion and death and come thru Mary to the glory of Her only begotten Son!

From Genesis to revelation!

First promise of salvation!

Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Total war: enmity

None of satans works are found in Mary, she belongs entirely to God!
Even consecration herself to God at a very young age.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

1 kings 2: 17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.

18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king. (Intercession)

19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

Queen Esther
Fair Esther 2:7
Mary all fair Song of Solomon 4:12
Found Favor Esther 2:17
Mary found favor with God Lk 1:30
Esther saves her people interceding with the king
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11

2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

Heb 2:7

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands

Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun.



Mary is the great sign of the divinity of Christ!

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lk 2:35
a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Matt 27:54
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Jn 2:3
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Jn 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you....I like to address specifics.

There are many passages that refer to Jesus the Word as God.

John 1:1 for example? I have addressed this in some detail already.
In Greek it does not say that....it is a translation error based on trinitarian bias.

Jesus is called out as messiah and God in Isaiah and the Spirit of God is proclaimed as God also:

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

OK, lets take Isaiah in context. This is definitely about the Messiah who was not yet born when this prophesy was written. So Isaiah foretold a lot about the coming Messiah, including the fact that he would be born of a virgin (or maiden). But let's see what these titles mean in the Bible's view....

"Wonderful Counsellor"...who can deny that the counsel given by Jesus was "wonderful"...it came from his Father, so how could it be otherwise? (John 7:16)

"The mighty God"....can Jesus be "a god" without being "the God"? You will notice the adjective used here is "mighty" small "m".....not "Almighty" with a capital "A". Is this significant? Yes it is, because Jesus is called "theos" (god) in John 1:1 but it is without the definite article "THE" which is how the Greek language describes Yahweh. Because the Jews had ceased using the divine name, there was no other way to distinguish the "one (now nameless) God" of Israel from all the other 'gods' that existed in Greek religious thinking.

"The everlasting Father"....how is Jesus a "father"? If you consult a Hebrew to English concordance, you will see that the word "father" ('āḇ) has a range of meanings....described as...

1. "father of an individual
   
   
2. of God as father of his people
   
   
3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
   
   
4. ancestor
   1. grandfather, forefathers — of person
      
      
   2. of people"

So you see that Jesus can be an "everlasting Father" by giving his followers everlasting life....he being "head or founder of a household"...all of whom obediently observe his teachings.
It doesn't mean that he can become his own God and Father.

What about "Prince of Peace"? What is a Prince, but the son of a King? This Prince will rule for peace and righteousness in God's Kingdom.
Since Isaiah wrote his prophesies before Christianity was even established, he did not write to support or deny a trinity...but to just speak the truth as he understood it.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is a spirit Being, meaning that he has no tangible form. But God being a spirit, doesn't make him the Holy Spirit, since God, Jesus and the holy spirit can all be in different places at once, they cannot all be one entity because the scriptures tell us that Jesus' will could be different from his Father's. (Matthew 26:39)
God knew things that the son did not. (Matthew 24:36)
When Stephen was about to be stoned, the Bible says that he was filled with Holy Spirit and as he looked up he was granted a heavenly vision of God with Jesus at his right hand.....was the holy spirit missing because it was busy with Stephen?
Why is it that in every mention of Father and Son together, there is never Holy Spirit at God's left hand?

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Yes, the Samaritan woman at the well....she believed in the Pentateuch (the writings of Moses) albeit the Samaritan version, but they too were expecting the Messiah. Jesus assured her that salvation originated with the Jews, and that they worshipped what they did not know.
Many people today, also worship what they do not know.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

She was the first person to whom Jesus revealed that he was the promised Messiah.

So you see....everything is not as it seems. The devil has worked overtime to make sure that confusion reigns in the world of which he is its god and ruler. (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7; 2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[Raccoon1010]

Thank you....I like to address specifics.


John 1:1 for example? I have addressed this in some detail already.
In Greek it does not say that....it is a translation error based on trinitarian bias.



OK, lets take Isaiah in context. This is definitely about the Messiah who was not yet born when this prophesy was written. So Isaiah foretold a lot about the coming Messiah, including the fact that he would be born of a virgin (or maiden). But let's see what these titles mean in the Bible's view....

"Wonderful Counsellor"...who can deny that the counsel given by Jesus was "wonderful"...it came from his Father, so how could it be otherwise? (John 7:16)

"The mighty God"....can Jesus be "a god" without being "the God"? You will notice the adjective used here is "mighty" small "m".....not "Almighty" with a capital "A". Is this significant? Yes it is, because Jesus is called "theos" (god) in John 1:1 but it is without the definite article "THE" which is how the Greek language describes Yahweh. Because the Jews had ceased using the divine name, there was no other way to distinguish the "one (now nameless) God" of Israel from all the other 'gods' that existed in Greek religious thinking.

"The everlasting Father"....how is Jesus a "father"? If you consult a Hebrew to English concordance, you will see that the word "father" ('āḇ) has a range of meanings....described as...

1. "father of an individual
   
   
2. of God as father of his people
   
   
3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
   
   
4. ancestor
   1. grandfather, forefathers — of person
      
      
   2. of people"

So you see that Jesus can be an "everlasting Father" by giving his followers everlasting life....he being "head or founder of a household"...all of whom obediently observe his teachings.
It doesn't mean that he can become his own God and Father.

What about "Prince of Peace"? What is a Prince, but the son of a King? This Prince will rule for peace and righteousness in God's Kingdom.
Since Isaiah wrote his prophesies before Christianity was even established, he did not write to support or deny a trinity...but to just speak the truth as he understood it.


God is a spirit Being, meaning that he has no tangible form. But God being a spirit, doesn't make him the Holy Spirit, since God, Jesus and the holy spirit can all be in different places at once, they cannot all be one entity because the scriptures tell us that Jesus' will could be different from his Father's. (Matthew 26:39)
God knew things that the son did not. (Matthew 24:36)
When Stephen was about to be stoned, the Bible says that he was filled with Holy Spirit and as he looked up he was granted a heavenly vision of God with Jesus at his right hand.....was the holy spirit missing because it was busy with Stephen?
Why is it that in every mention of Father and Son together, there is never Holy Spirit at God's left hand?


Yes, the Samaritan woman at the well....she believed in the Pentateuch (the writings of Moses) albeit the Samaritan version, but they too were expecting the Messiah. Jesus assured her that salvation originated with the Jews, and that they worshipped what they did not know.
Many people today, also worship what they do not know.


She was the first person to whom Jesus revealed that he was the promised Messiah.

So you see....everything is not as it seems. The devil has worked overtime to make sure that confusion reigns in the world of which he is its god and ruler. (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7; 2 Cor 4:3-4)

First off, Jesus is also called Emmuel so it's quite obvious that Jesus is God. Anyone that denies that is denying Jesus:

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
Second since God is a spirit and God is holy, then his spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is obvious to anyone that does not deny God's goodness and holiness.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Christ is a king the church is his kingdom with power and authority and a visible earthy ruler and universal

You mean the Catholic church?
I would of course have to disagree....
A "Kingdom" is a "king" with a "dom"ain. Christ is the King and he rules over an earthly domain.
Christians have no earthly leader....Jesus is our only leader....and all of his teachings are contained in the scriptures.

Matthew 23:8-11...
"But as for you, do not be called Rabbi; for only One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters. 9 And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called leaders; for only One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest of you shall be your servant." (NASB)

How does the RCC fit this description made by Jesus himself?
The title "Pontifex Maximus" given to the Pope (Pontiff) is a pagan Roman title accorded to their High Priest.....there was no Pope in original Christianity. Nor would a genuine representative of Jesus Christ live in a gold inlaid palace with servants....living high off the hog whilst his fellow Catholics live is abject poverty and squalor? Is this something Jesus would do? All the Pope does is grace people with his presence....what on earth is that supposed to accomplish for his flock? He leaves them in the same pitiful condition as he found them, even though he has the means at his disposal to alleviate their suffering.

The whole universe is subject to Christ the king and his ministers in his absence
Isa 22:21-22 matt 16:18 Lk 10:16 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 13:20
Like Joseph under pharaoh they were subject to him even his own brothers and father

Actually Jesus appointed a "faithful and sensible slave" to take care of his household of fellow slaves, in his absence.
It is connected to the time of the end as we see in his words at Matthew 24:42-47....
“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household slaves, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions."
So before Christ's return, he appointed this slave to "feed" their fellow slaves their "food at the proper time".....meaning that what this slave feeds the entire household has to be what they need, when they need it. It isn't physical food, but spiritual food that nourishes the whole body of slaves. Strengthening them for the greatest tribulation in the history of the world. (Matthew 24:21) Are you and your fellow Catholics prepared for the return of the Christ? Will he recognize those who have taught falsehoods about him, and have shed blood in his name when he taught us to be "peacemakers" and to 'love our enemies'? (Matthew 5:9; 43-45)

Will he acknowledge those who have acted in ways that Jesus never would have, burning at the stake any who questioned the church's conduct and teachings and who even dared to read the Bible for themselves? Isn't this emulating their god who burns people alive in a fiery hell? Where will I find this 'hell of eternal torment' in scripture?

Maybe Jesus should answer those questions? Matthew 7:21-23....
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness."

So it seems clear enough to me that conduct alone (doing the will of the Father) will dictate the fate of all. Those who practice things that are against God's Law are rejected completely. So we all have choices about our personal conduct and that of our chosen 'church'.

There are only two roads...one leads to life and the other leads to destruction. "Few" are on the road to life because it is not an easy path to tread.....it is cramped and narrow for a reason. The easy road has the most travelers because not much is required of them.

When we choose the path, then we also choose the destination.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Christians have no earthly leader....Jesus is our only leader....and all of his teachings are contained in the scriptures.

This is not entirely true. Jesus is the light of the world with the giving of gifts of wisdom and knowledge. All correct science and medicine is given to people of this age from Jesus' Holy Spirit. There is much more than scripture in the world. This is evident from the technological advancements of cars, aircraft, phones, computers, TV's, medicine, etc.

John 8:12

King James Version

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

First off, Jesus is also called Emmuel so it's quite obvious that Jesus is God. Anyone that denies that is denying Jesus:

That is not true. No one is denying that, least of all me....but I am demonstrating to you that there is more than one way to understand scripture. It must not contradict the rest of the Bible. If it does, then your interpretation is wrong. The Bible is never wrong.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

Was Jesus called "Immanuel" or was this his role meaning that by means of Jesus, "God was with" his people?
How was God "with" Christ's disciples after Jesus' death and resurrection? Wasn't it by means of the apostles? Didn't they have the Holy Spirit and weren't they able to perform miracles by means of it?

How was God "with" his people in ancient Israel? Wasn't it through human representatives? Wasn't God "with" Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Patriarchs?
Moses was one who rescued Israel from physical slavery in Egypt and guided that rebellious nation to the border of the Promised Land, and he foretold that a prophet like himself (Acts 3:22-23) would also come to lead God's people to a greater "promised land" .....a "new heavens and earth" of God's making so that his original purpose for this earth can finally be fulfilled. (2 Peter 3:13)

Second since God is a spirit and God is holy, then his spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is obvious to anyone that does not deny God's goodness and holiness.

God is a spirit but his holy spirit is not himself. He sends this spirit or power where and when it is needed. At Pentecost for example the Holy Spirit empowered Christ's disciples to speak in foreign languages so that the people who came to the Festival could hear the Christian message in their own language. (Acts 2:5-8)They could heal the sick and raise the dead.

God's goodness and holiness is not denied by believing that he is a spirit and has a vast amount of power that is referred to as his Holy Spirit. It doesn't say "God the Holy Spirit" or "God the Son" in any passage of scripture.

God's power is what created the Universe after all....how is it not good and holy like everything else that comes from him?

 

[Raccoon1010]

That is not true. No one is denying that, least of all me....but I am demonstrating to you that there is more than one way to understand scripture. It must not contradict the rest of the Bible. If it does, then your interpretation is wrong. The Bible is never wrong.


Was Jesus called "Immanuel" or was this his role meaning that by means of Jesus, "God was with" his people?
How was God "with" Christ's disciples after Jesus' death and resurrection? Wasn't it by means of the apostles? Didn't they have the Holy Spirit and weren't they able to perform miracles by means of it?

How was God "with" his people in ancient Israel? Wasn't it through human representatives? Wasn't God "with" Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Patriarchs?
Moses was one who rescued Israel from physical slavery in Egypt and guided that rebellious nation to the border of the Promised Land, and he foretold that a prophet like himself (Acts 3:22-23) would also come to lead God's people to a greater "promised land" .....a "new heavens and earth" of God's making so that his original purpose for this earth can finally be fulfilled. (2 Peter 3:13)


God is a spirit but his holy spirit is not himself. He sends this spirit or power where and when it is needed. At Pentecost for example the Holy Spirit empowered Christ's disciples to speak in foreign languages so that the people who came to the Festival could hear the Christian message in their own language. (Acts 2:5-8)They could heal the sick and raise the dead.

God's goodness and holiness is not denied by believing that he is a spirit and has a vast amount of power that is referred to as his Holy Spirit. It doesn't say "God the Holy Spirit" or "God the Son" in any passage of scripture.

God's power is what created the Universe after all....how is it not good and holy like everything else that comes from him?

I'm curious what religion you are? I believe in the trinity which you are interpreting away from. So I'm curious. Thanks. And no I don't see how your interpretations make sense.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is not entirely true. Jesus is the light of the world with the giving of gifts of wisdom and knowledge.

He gave his disciples spiritual wisdom and knowledge that is true....but he did not give them technical knowledge because when they performed miracles, they had no idea how they worked....just that they worked. It was God's power working through them.

All correct science and medicine is given to people of this age from Jesus' Holy Spirit.

Wow! That is a big statement and I really don't know where to start addressing it.....

Science and technology have actually worked for the greater harm to the whole human race, and to the earth itself....so I have no idea where that idea came from.
Scientists are some of the biggest God-deniers. Replacing creation with evolution....how is that not a slap in his face?

There is much more than scripture in the world. This is evident from the technological advancements of cars, aircraft, phones, computers, TV's, medicine, etc.

The downside of all those things far outweighs the good stuff....IMO.
Just imagine....cars are a method of transport, but because they burn fossil fuels, they are a great source of pollution.....aircraft too fill the skies with harmful chemicals. All of these methods of transportation on land, in the air and at sea, have been used in war to terminate human lives, to deliver their deadly payload on the innocent as well as on their military targets.
Scientists gave us nuclear weapons.....God gives no sanction to Christians for war.
"Thou shalt not kill" still hold true.

Phones and computers these days can be used as a means to track people or to deliver propaganda and immoral filth to anyone who wants to view them. Children are exposed to vile things that their parents do not see, or even know about. It feeds pedophiles and those who are addicted to porn. So I fail to see how the good outweighs the bad. Gamblers and their money are soon parted and they never had to walk out the front door.

Well known voices on the mainstream media can divide humankind like no others, as we see today in the current pandemic....or in political issues. These channels spread false ideas and ideologies that can bring the world to its knees. Pitting even family members against one another and making them enemies, simply because they disagree.

As for medicine....good grief man, do you not see what they are doing? They have kept good and effective natural medicines away from people whilst dispensing their artificial chemical poisons and keeping people sick for their whole life in order to sell them their useless drugs.
Tons of these medications are ending up the sewerage system and on into ocean outfalls and are affecting the fish and other marine creatures....not to mention plastic pollution that is killing so many of them.

How many drugs are you taking in the belief that they are helping you to stay well?
Did you know that curing physical ailments is a bad business model? What they aim for is symptom control so that you might feel better, but remain sick enough to have to keep taking their "medications" for the rest of your life.....follow the money trail....it leads nowhere good.

If the general public was to find out that these experimental vaccines that are being plugged relentlessly, were going to cause long term health problems because of not being tested like all vaccines must, (up to 10 years) then how do you think they might respond? How would you respond if you knew that they didn't care, but just wanted to clean up financially by taking advantage of carefully orchestrated scare tactics?
Who is, after all running this show? Can you see God anywhere?

The Kingdom is 'coming' and I can't wait till it puts all things to right on this beautiful planet again. (Matthew 6:9-10)

John 8:12

King James Version

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The light of life has nothing to do with this world....how could you think so? The Bible identifies the ruler of this world....and Jesus told us to be "no part" of it. (John 17:16; John 18:36)

1 John 5:19..
"We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
How much of the world is not in the power of the wicked one? Its not hard to see unless you are blinded by him. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm curious what religion you are? I believe in the trinity which you are interpreting away from. So I'm curious. Thanks. And no I don't see how your interpretations make sense.

My "religion" should make no difference to the Bible's message. The Bible I believe, speaks for itself. Its message will only make sense to those who have God's invitation. (John 6:44; 65) I am merely a messenger.

Like I said there are only two roads....God does not see 'denominations', he just sees those who are following the teachings of his son and those who are not. His true disciples will all have to speak in agreement otherwise they are not part of his spiritual family. (1 Cor 1:10)

 

[Truman]

Oh boy, a new show...munch, munch...

 

[Brakelite]

His true disciples will all have to speak in agreement....

About everything? Do any of us agree 100% in every matter of theology, eschatology, and will those differences have any direct impact on our destiny? What is it by which we are saved... Our correct theology or the blood of the Lamb?
Don't misunderstand me though, I think correct theology is important because errors affect how we approach God and how we characterize Him before an unbelieving world. It's just that I believe there will be many in glory who during this life, didn't have all their theological ducks in a nice pretty basket with a neat ribbon attached. God is merciful and gracious, even to the stupid and ignorant and me